Resisting from Belfast to Gaza with Danny Morrison
We interview former political prisoner Danny Morrison to help compare and contrast the Irish nationalist movement of the 1960s-1970s, which most notably included the IRA, to the modern day Palestinian resistance. The historical, political, social and economic similarities are seemingly endless.
Many lessons can be drawn from Danny's 50+ years experience fighting against the British empire by any means necessary. He talks of a peoples denied every other means of 'home rule' or self determination. Of a movement created to defend their communities against both state and sectarian violence. And of how the Irish were politicized, organized and mobilized to victory.
Inevitably the discussion turns to the demonization of resistance, and how one should respond.
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Transcript
Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints
Speaker:of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining
Speaker:power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,
Speaker:we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle
Speaker:capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know
Speaker:we need. For 75 years. Palestinians have been denied the most basic rights. They faced occupation,
Speaker:economic despair, displacement, and unrelenting violence, all at the hands of the Israeli state,
Speaker:an apartheid state backed by the United States war machine. Living in Canada, most of us can
Speaker:only imagine what kind of impact all of that would have on us and our communities. I received
Speaker:a message almost a month ago now. from a comrade who had experienced occupation and also a war
Speaker:for liberation. At the time, we were in the throes of people's immediate reaction to October
Speaker:7th and trying to make sense of it all. He calmly explained that settlers growing up inside a
Speaker:colonial estate, immersed in its ideology, could not possibly understand what a war for liberation
Speaker:looks like. We could sit and imagine what we would do in the face of erasure. of genocide,
Speaker:but we can't know for sure. And we can't just sit removed and pretend to understand. Right
Speaker:now our thoughts surely go to Palestine, but they're not even the only peoples fighting
Speaker:for existence right now. And unfortunately history is full of examples of peoples being treated
Speaker:this way and having to resist oppressive and powerful forces. Canada's own history is no
Speaker:exception. When we look into these moments, we see the imperialists rinse and repeat, using
Speaker:the same tactics against rebels and revolutionaries, over and over again. Well, we too must learn
Speaker:from them, from the experiences of those who've done the work before us and who have seen victory.
Speaker:The Irish are an example of that. In a global response largely void of courage, the Irish
Speaker:have stood in solidarity with the people of Palestine for some time. not just since October
Speaker:7th. This is because they too know all too well what it's like to be vilified for fighting
Speaker:for freedom. They know what it's like to stand alone on that world stage demanding recognition.
Speaker:Most importantly for this discussion, they know what it's like being forced into taking up
Speaker:arms when all other peaceful forms of resistance have been beaten back. Like Palestine, even
Speaker:their flag. The tri-color green, white, and orange was banned in attempts to silence and
Speaker:delegitimize them, but it didn't work. The resistance was focused, organized, and determined. It
Speaker:was also violent. In the end, they brought the British Empire to their knees, and they continued
Speaker:to resist. So next up, we're going to talk to someone who wasn't just there during the troubles
Speaker:of the early 1970s, the hunger strikes, and the peace accords. He was pivotal. I'll let
Speaker:Danny give you his credentials, but he is certainly a wealth of knowledge on the history of the
Speaker:people's struggle in Northern Ireland. As a spokesperson and a writer, he also has a lot
Speaker:to say on the attempts to label and demonize resistance movements and what our collective
Speaker:and individual responses to that should be. Welcome from Belfast. Can you introduce yourself,
Speaker:Danny? Okay, well, my name is Danny Morrison. I'm almost 71 years of age. I have been a member
Speaker:of the Republican struggle for many, many years, maybe 50, 60 years. If I was to think back
Speaker:to the first protest that I was on, I'm also a former prisoner. I've been charged twice
Speaker:with membership of the Irish Republican Army, the IRA, and on both occasions I defeated the
Speaker:charges. I was also sentenced to Eight years for conspiring to kill a police informer and
Speaker:kidnapping him. I served my sentence and then later a British Army intelligence officer wrote
Speaker:a book showing that I had been set up by British intelligence. I sued the British government
Speaker:successfully and had the conviction quashed. I've also been a member of the Legislative
Speaker:Assembly up at Stormont. I was elected there from 82 to 86. I've been the National Director
Speaker:of Publicity for Sinn Fein for 11 years, until that arrest when I was charged with kidnapping
Speaker:an informer. And I was also editor of Republican News, the Sinn Fein weekly paper, for many,
Speaker:many years as well. Oh and currently I'm a writer and editor at the moment, yes. I've written
Speaker:eight books and I've
Speaker:was called Assured Struggle. And that was a book where surviving hunger strikers from the
Speaker:Palestinian cause and from the Irish Republican cause wrote about their experiences. Wow. That's
Speaker:a lot to unpack. I feel, Danny, we could sit here for eight hours asking you about the litany
Speaker:of things you've just mentioned, right down from your very first protest to the written
Speaker:work that you've done. But I'm glad you ended on that. that comparison, that tie, because
Speaker:that is, although we would have loved to talk to you any day of the week, we feel a conversation
Speaker:with you right now would help folks listening better understand that Palestinian resistance
Speaker:from the perspective of someone who, as you say, has fought as a Republican nationalist
Speaker:for 50, 60 years. Well, I mean, I was first imprisoned. I was interned without charge or
Speaker:trial. And incidentally, the legacy of that policy of internment has been used by Israel.
Speaker:It's called administrative detention. But we have we had exactly the same process here,
Speaker:where for five years, over two and a half thousand people were interned overall. I was 19 when
Speaker:I was interned back in Longkesh and in prison. I met many, many people who traveled the world,
Speaker:particularly, for example, merchant seamen. Some of them had docked it. For example, in
Speaker:Cape Town, were telling us about what apartheid was like. First time I ever heard of that,
Speaker:the name that whip, the Shambok, was by a prisoner who saw black people being beaten by racist
Speaker:white police in South Africa. So in the prison where we had political status, of course, I
Speaker:mean, we read about the Mexican Revolution, the Russian Revolution. Algeria. Vietnam was
Speaker:ongoing at that point in time. And the Palestinian struggle, like I remember the, what was called,
Speaker:I don't know where it's the correct political term, but back then it was called the Yom Kippur
Speaker:War. I was imprisoned then on October 73 when that happened. And then of course, two months
Speaker:before that, Allende was overthrown by a CIA intervention in Chile. So we were highly politicized.
Speaker:And it was from a very, very young age that we were aware that what was wrong in our society
Speaker:was British imperialism, settler colonialism. As it turned out historically, when the English
Speaker:first attempted, 800 years ago, when the English first attempted to control Ireland and occupy
Speaker:Ireland, control our resources and use the trees to build their ships, which built their empire,
Speaker:the strongest resistance came from what was called Ulster. There are four provinces in
Speaker:Ireland, Ulster is in the north and there the people fought the hardest, the native Irish
Speaker:fought the toughest. And it was there that the English decided to dispossess the local people
Speaker:and give the land to their soldiers, some of whom were from Scotland. And because of the
Speaker:Reformation, up until the 16th century, Scotland, England and Wales were Catholic countries.
Speaker:But as a result of the Henry the Itham Reformation. we now had the settlers now not only were distinguished
Speaker:by the fact that they were from a foreign country and didn't speak our native tongue Irish, but
Speaker:they were also a different religion on this occasion, Scottish Presbyterian, English Anglicans,
Speaker:and for example they changed the name of places, so Derry became London Derry, which we, a term
Speaker:which we refused to use of course, and they controlled, they were able to put down a substantial
Speaker:Irish uprising. as a result of the plantation. So we're still living today with the effects
Speaker:of that. Now, interestingly, some of the original planters, for want of a better word, some of
Speaker:the original planters were very much influenced by the French Revolution and the American Revolution
Speaker:of 1776 and the whole enlightenment process and the writings of Tom Paine. And one of these
Speaker:people was a Protestant, a Dublin lawyer, barrister, called Theobald with tone. and he set up a
Speaker:new organisation called the United Irish Men. And this was interesting because his point
Speaker:was to unite everybody who is in Ireland, regardless of where your origins were. So if you can sync
Speaker:your identity in unity. And he purposefully advocated the unity of Catholics, Protestants
Speaker:and dissenters. There was a large uprising in 1788, which was brutally suppressed. But that's
Speaker:where I get my Irish republicanism from, from Wouftone and those ideas of the French Revolution,
Speaker:equality, liberty. And that has lived on to this day. That's why we don't like monarchy.
Speaker:We like the people being in charge of their own affairs. See, as a Canadian, I struggle.
Speaker:I want to keep asking you still, how were they so politicized? Because from... a Canadian
Speaker:perspective, a real kind of settler mentality. And quite often, all of us recognize that we're
Speaker:somewhat powerless, we're within systems that don't work with us. You know, we understand
Speaker:things aren't fair and they're not right. But there's so much punching down and punching
Speaker:across and not directed at capitalism, the powers that be. as clearly as it seems to be as you're
Speaker:speaking and you're talking about all these influences. And I feel like I'm like, where
Speaker:are these? Like how did that really, like in school, did you learn about all these revolutions?
Speaker:Was that how you spoke to one another? Because not everyone was interned in prison and had
Speaker:like these discussions, right? So- No, but every member of my community was a member of a community
Speaker:that knew a grave injustice had been committed against them. So for example, in the run up,
Speaker:you see our struggle has always been binary in a way. So there were laws, the penal laws
Speaker:were against the Catholic, the vast majority of people in Ireland. So they weren't allowed
Speaker:to own a horse. They weren't allowed to own property. The Catholic religion was banned.
Speaker:Priests had to say mass on the side of hill sides. posting out people in case the humanry
Speaker:of the soldiers came. Now as that was slowly relaxed over the 18th century and as middle
Speaker:class Catholics got the vote, a lot of people felt that perhaps through peaceful constitutional
Speaker:means you could bring about change, you could have devolution. The idea they were talking
Speaker:about was just a parliament under the English Crown but for all of Ireland and it looked
Speaker:like they were going to be successful. right on up until the eve of the First World War.
Speaker:So we had a constitutional movement calling for home rule, that is a parliament in Dublin,
Speaker:but under the British Crown. And the descendants of the original planters opposed this and they
Speaker:called themselves the Ulster Unionists. And they threatened civil war if there was home
Speaker:rule for Ireland. So they were anti-democratic. They had no problem, by the way, with ruling
Speaker:Ireland as long as they were in control. But as that slowly slipped away from them, they
Speaker:thought in terms of the north of Ireland. And of course Ulster consists of nine counties,
Speaker:but ultimately the Unionists settled for six counties. So my grandparents, you know, who
Speaker:were born in the United Ireland, born in Belfast in the United Ireland, in 1920-21, they suddenly
Speaker:found themselves... in a partitioned country where all power had been handed to one section
Speaker:of the community, the Unionists who were extremely loyal to Britain. And the first thing that
Speaker:the Unionists did was to try to attack the Catholic community in Belfast. So thousands of people
Speaker:were driven from their jobs. My grandparents twice were driven from their home. Even though
Speaker:Catholics made up Irish nationalist Catholics. made up only a quarter of the percentage of
Speaker:the people of Belfast City, during the pogroms they made up the vast majority of those who
Speaker:lost their lives or who were burnt out of their homes. So we had a state here, which was one
Speaker:party state, and even though the British government, whenever they set up the state of Northern
Speaker:Ireland, said that there would be safeguards for the nationalist minority, one day we were
Speaker:a majority in our own country and then the next day we were a minority in our own country,
Speaker:as Britain... Britain allowed the south of Ireland slowly but surely to break away and of course
Speaker:they announced declared the Republic of Ireland in 1948-1949 but we were still trapped in the
Speaker:Snowyland state. So we were politicised, we were always politicised. So we knew for example
Speaker:that if you go to the border, I mean a farmer will own two fields and one will be in the
Speaker:north and one will be in the south but especially during the British occupation during our most
Speaker:recent conflict. British Army would blow up roads, blow up bridges, blow up hundreds of
Speaker:roads and hundreds of bridges and follow all the population that was travelling between
Speaker:the North and the South in between a certain limited number of roads which they controlled
Speaker:with military checkpoints. So even though we were a minority, we suffered discrimination.
Speaker:So you're familiar with the term gerrymander? Jesse? Yep. No. Okay. Well, there was a governor
Speaker:in Massachusetts who deliberately drew up his constituency. Oh, Gerry Mander. Gerry Mander,
Speaker:yes. Sorry. So we had a similar situation here where in Derry City, two thirds of the people
Speaker:were nationalist. They've carved up the constituency in such a way that the minority unionists ran
Speaker:the council. They said where houses were built. They said where the jobs were based. So even
Speaker:though we made up a third of the population in the north. we made up two thirds of those
Speaker:who emigrated. And then by this means, the unionists thought they would have control in perpetuity.
Speaker:Following the example of the Black Civil Rights Movement in the USA, we set up a civil rights
Speaker:association. It was also based on the students movement in May 1968 across Europe and Vietnam.
Speaker:We followed it very closely. So we had a big protest movement and that was brutally suppressed.
Speaker:The final, the most decisive moment came in August 1969. I was 16 at the time. we were
Speaker:protesting down the Falls Road and just after I had left for home, the police, the Royal
Speaker:Ulster Constabulary, the government's police invaded our area, opened fire with machine
Speaker:guns, burnt hundreds of people out of their homes and rebuilt barricades. And it was from
Speaker:behind the barricades that the IRA was rebuilt. Now its original purpose was just to defend
Speaker:the people but as raids continued including famously the Falls Curfew when they surrounded
Speaker:40,000 people, heaved them into their homes, gassed them from helicopters, shot dead people,
Speaker:wounded people, arrested 300 people, most of them 16, 17 years of age. That led the IRA
Speaker:to start, to renew its campaign. And its argument was that we're not gonna get our civil rights
Speaker:until we get our national rights. And the only way we're gonna get our national rights is
Speaker:by challenging British rule in the North of Ireland. and then that led to the long war.
Speaker:So, I mean, anybody listening can see the parallels between that experience and what the people
Speaker:of Gaza are experiencing in terms of division, delegitimizing any political means, and the
Speaker:economic and social conditions that are created there. I want to go back to that politicizing,
Speaker:because now I'm starting to understand. You say politicized and you mean it, but you also
Speaker:mean fucking terrorized and no representation, right? A lack of democracy. So for me, I guess
Speaker:I thought in politicized meant exposure to ideas, but I should have known better because I have
Speaker:been taught. this before, it's just not something I've experienced. And that's kind of what I
Speaker:want to help people understand is that perpetual oppressive force that's pushing down and people's
Speaker:natural reaction to it. And it's not as calculated as the political maneuvering that I think of,
Speaker:right, when I think of being politicized. It's really just kind of the human reaction of being
Speaker:denied. a voice and a space and safety. And that really did help me understand that a little
Speaker:bit better. So a lot of folks, they understand liberation and realizing rights and support
Speaker:Palestinian freedom, but they don't, they're having trouble grappling with the armed resistance
Speaker:part of it. Right. And I think you've, you've kind of laid out, Danny spoke of the barricades
Speaker:to protect the nationalists in neighborhoods that were consistently being attacked, not
Speaker:just by the state, right, but also by civilians. Well, there's a couple of things. First of
Speaker:all, I think that the nature of resistance is directly proportional often to the degree of
Speaker:oppression. And we have not experienced that depth, that cruelty of oppression that Palestine
Speaker:has. has experienced successively since 1948 and even before that. But the parallels between
Speaker:Ireland and Palestine are much closer than what I've intimated. So, for example, our own movements
Speaker:here for home rule in the 19th, just prior to the First World War, split. So we had constitutional
Speaker:leaders, a man called John Redmond, and Britain said to him, if you fight for us in the First
Speaker:World War, we will give you home rule at the end of it. And so he sent as many as between
Speaker:35 and 55,000 people died from Ireland fighting for Britain, thinking at the end of it they
Speaker:were going to get home rule. And of course Britain reneged on that. Similarly, the Palestinians
Speaker:were promised if you fight for us against the Ottoman Empire, at the end of it... you will
Speaker:get self-determination. And they say the same to India, who supplied thousands of people,
Speaker:cannon fodder. And they said the same thing to indigenous people in Canada. I'm thinking
Speaker:of the War of 1812 as an example, where similar promises were made, treaties were drawn up
Speaker:that were then later ignored, and they didn't get the land that they were promised. It's
Speaker:quite the pattern. Well, it was Lord Balfour famously. He hands the Middle East to Zanis.
Speaker:What right does he to, I mean, like me turning around and saying that, by the way, I'm giving
Speaker:Hawaii to somebody, you know? It's just, it's so ridiculous. But also, of course, the people
Speaker:who were involved in attacking our resistance struggle at the time when the IRA did call
Speaker:out, call a truce and a ceasefire in 1920, 21. And of course, the negotiations did not go.
Speaker:the way they should have went and Ireland was divided and the
Speaker:The differences that existed inside the Republican struggle led to a civil war in the south of
Speaker:Ireland, and governments that were friendly towards Britain installed. Where have we heard
Speaker:that before? A government that's very friendly with the collaboration forces. The south of
Speaker:Ireland never lifted a finger for us in the north. But not only that, but then the Black
Speaker:and Thans who had burnt down Cork, burnt down Balbrigan, there, whenever they leave the 26
Speaker:counties, were they sent to Palestine? And of course you have the whole British involvement
Speaker:right up until 1948 when Israel is recognized by the UN. So there are many parallels that,
Speaker:and what you mentioned, it's very interesting if you mention Native Americans, Native Indians,
Speaker:because I mean if you read, Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee,
Speaker:I think it's by David Lee, I can't remember his name. What we are seeing today in Palestine
Speaker:is exactly the same. Every agreement that was reached is torn up, thrown in their faces.
Speaker:Well, back then, the world internationally had no means of modern communication to see the
Speaker:genocide of the Native Americans. Today we can, and what is really interesting, what is really,
Speaker:really revealing. As a dope, all these so-called democratic governments, all these so-called
Speaker:enlightened people, like the president of the European Union, you scratch them underneath.
Speaker:They are, in my opinion, incriminated in genocide. They support Israel. Israel is a beachhead
Speaker:for American imperialism in that part of the land. You don't even have to take my word for
Speaker:it. The president of the United States, there's a video of him. saying that if it didn't exist,
Speaker:we would have to invent it. And it was worse than all of this money because they controlled
Speaker:the complexion of many of the other states around that area. And that is the real reason. So,
Speaker:you know, I think there's no such thing as Western civilization. I think the European Union has
Speaker:to be rewritten, given the way they have behaved. Of course, the Sinn Fein currently in opinion
Speaker:polls and in the last election in the South received more votes than any other party. We're
Speaker:the largest party in the north of Ireland and in all likelihood Sinn Fein will be in government,
Speaker:the lead party in government if it is a coalition government within the next 18 months since
Speaker:Sinn Fein is pledged. One of the first things it's doing is to issue public recognition of
Speaker:a Palestinian state which will hopefully free up other sound political organisations and
Speaker:parties in Europe to act in a similar fashion. and also to make law legislation, which has
Speaker:already been passed because the coalition government in Dublin has refused to enact it in law, is
Speaker:to ban products produced by Israeli settlers and to basically support the BDS, but officially
Speaker:from a governmental position. So that's the next move when Sinn Féin gets into power in
Speaker:the South of Ireland. And of course, already Israel is going crazy about this. and has condemned
Speaker:Ireland as being the worst in Europe. And they use all the language of the day, emotional
Speaker:language meant to break you, meant to think, oh, am I a collaborator here with Holocaust?
Speaker:Nonsense. What they're doing and what the Germans did to the Warsaw ghetto stops parallels with.
Speaker:And yet for some reason they don't say it or they do say it. and they don't care, and they
Speaker:will trade on the memory of the dead in order to preserve their privileged position in 2023
Speaker:onwards. I imagine that's so old news for you, being attacked by, you know, imperialist propaganda
Speaker:machines and anybody looking at the history of Northern Ireland from a really removed perspective.
Speaker:And I imagine a little bit while you're in the thick of it. is that the violence was always
Speaker:one-sided. And we're seeing that's a parallel that surely we can recognize here where the
Speaker:violence is reported to have started on October 7th, because that is a really comfortable framing
Speaker:that allows for that terrorism label that I'm sure you've experienced. And that framing of
Speaker:where state violence is the only legitimate violence, but it's also the easiest forgotten
Speaker:violence. You know, if you talk to people, you know, I'm gonna out my mom here a little bit.
Speaker:I told her, I'm like, I've got Danny Morrison coming on the show. We're gonna talk about
Speaker:the IRA. And you know, she was a little, she clutched her pearls a little. She doesn't wear
Speaker:pearls, but you know what I'm talking about. And she goes, ooh, you know, they were very
Speaker:violent, weren't they? And so that's how people, they don't remember what you described at the
Speaker:onset of the show of the open state. violence, like from gassing from helicopters is how you
Speaker:described it. And we could go on. I'm sure you have lists of atrocities committed by British
Speaker:troops and Black and Tens. As far as the state is concerned and the mainstream media is concerned,
Speaker:they all take their cue from the British government. So when the British government, for example,
Speaker:changes its language, for example, I was interned at Longkesh and the word Longkesh around the
Speaker:world. was so pejorative and associated with cruelty and beating of prisoners and hunger
Speaker:strikes and prisoners shot trying to escape that the British government changed its name
Speaker:to the Mayors Prison. They changed Blomkesh to the Mayors Prison and all the media adopted
Speaker:that terminology. So the media and the British government, the violence begins when the IRA
Speaker:fires its first shot and all that preceded it, the cruelty, the people burnt out of their
Speaker:houses. The first child to be killed in our conflict was nine-year-old Patrick Rooney,
Speaker:nine-year-old, shot dead, machine gunned to death by the RUC in his bed. The first soldier
Speaker:to be killed was a Catholic Home on Leave, Trooper Hugh McCabe. The RUC, that is, British police?
Speaker:The RUC police, yes, shot dead these people. Nobody was arrested, nobody was charged, after
Speaker:a civil rights march in The IEC broke into the house of Sammy Devaney, a father of eight,
Speaker:beat him to death in front of his children. Nobody's arrested. That's not violence. That's
Speaker:unfortunate. You know, but the violence begins when the IRA decides we've had enough, we're
Speaker:going to start fighting. Now, if all wars are horrible affairs, I mean, the IRA was involved
Speaker:in order to try and pull the British Army away from our areas, which were heavily militarised.
Speaker:The IRA planted bombs in the centre of town, it planted bombs against government buildings,
Speaker:against civil service buildings, it then planted bombs against commercial property. And the
Speaker:British government had to pay massive compensation towards all these buildings. So the IRA was
Speaker:saying, you can't defend this area. British government, British Army says, we can't defend
Speaker:the area. But during that campaign, yes, people were killed, innocent people were killed by
Speaker:the IRA. It was some unconscionable things. happened. But there was a lot of things that
Speaker:didn't happen. So for example, the IRA could have easily planted no warning bonds in the
Speaker:London Underground if it meant getting publicity etc. but it didn't do it. So the IRA was circumscribed
Speaker:by certain values as well. And as I said in some of my opening comments, there was a certain
Speaker:amount of proportionality. Similarly, the RAF couldn't bomb our Sinn Fein officers on the
Speaker:falls road after the IRA killed several soldiers because that would have been, we were, we were
Speaker:unlike Palestine, we were unique in that our conflict was happening in a society in which
Speaker:there was aspects of social democracy. We were in Western Europe, we were white. You were
Speaker:seen as more legitimate in a political realm. Well, the British government, the British embassy
Speaker:in Washington, went to war with the New York Times, which by the way, of course, we know
Speaker:was no friend of Palestine, but the New York Times refused to call the IRA terrorists, called
Speaker:the IRA guerrillas and the British ambassador, who said, yeah, they're terrorists, they're
Speaker:terrorists. All these minor little fights and skirmishes going on around the edges. But the
Speaker:fact of the matter is at the end of our struggle, the British government was talking to the IRA.
Speaker:All of our prisoners were released. My brother, who was serving 26 years, was released. longest
Speaker:man on hunger strike and who's in that book assured struggle. Pat Sheehan was released,
Speaker:hundreds were released, a lot of the people who released again went on to become elected
Speaker:representatives. Jai Kelly, who escaped from the Hitchblocks, became a junior minister under
Speaker:Martin McGuinness. Carlyle Killen, a woman who was caught attacking an RUC barracks, British
Speaker:Army barracks, she became Minister of Arts and Culture. So it's quite obvious that the British
Speaker:government knew all along that our struggle was political. And it was until when the IRA
Speaker:broke them and created a tipping point that we weren't able to get everything we wanted
Speaker:at the negotiating table. We still have the British connection here, which we will break
Speaker:eventually. But we have a peaceful path and a peaceful means of doing it, which was to
Speaker:deny the Palestinian people. Every time there was any deal entered into, Israel reneged on
Speaker:it. It always pocketed. any cons... it pocketed everything, you know, even when Yasser Arafat
Speaker:entered into the Oslo Accords, it pocketed those and it kept building settlements, building
Speaker:settlements because it wants to create facts on the ground, because it wants to renege,
Speaker:it wants to ensure there's no viable Palestinian state. And we see them and they're going to
Speaker:have to be confronted, but it's a... we have a tough battle ahead of us, but I do think
Speaker:things have been transformed. You know, appalling, appalling death, horrific deaths of men, women
Speaker:and children. But something has to change. And I think I've never, I've been around a long
Speaker:time and I have never seen marches with the type of people on them since Vietnam, since
Speaker:1969, 70, 71. Now we've had large marches during the hunger strike, particularly in 1981, when
Speaker:Bobby Sands and his comrades died. But these are huge marches. These are unprecedented marches.
Speaker:And on every march, people, I'm not sure if you agree with my word, are becoming politicised.
Speaker:So they are. And they take an interest and they're going to be hard to shift. So that's going
Speaker:to work its way out through where finance goes, our attitude towards... They're not going to
Speaker:be able to knock the BDS campaign after this. They're not going to be able to turn around
Speaker:and say, oh, that's anti-Zanist, oh, the Holocaust. They're not going to be able to do it. have
Speaker:lost that one. But we are experiencing that in Canada. I'm going to give you just a couple
Speaker:of examples, because if our audience has heard it, you know, legitimate boycott targets like
Speaker:Indigo Books, where their founders are, you know, massive Zionist supporters, you know,
Speaker:they have all kinds of foundations to recruit IDF soldiers. And I mean, it's very obvious
Speaker:that it's an Israeli boycott. And even, you know, a local... a café franchise where their
Speaker:headquarters are in occupied territories and they proudly support Zionism. Even we have
Speaker:our mayor of Toronto calling those anti-Semitic protests and enlisting the police in framing
Speaker:it as criminal. We've seen an organizer in Calgary, although the charges were stayed, charged with
Speaker:chanting from the river to the sea. although that's not related to BDS, you know, we aren't
Speaker:there yet. Like, they really are still trying to frame all of that as anti-Semitic and shut
Speaker:it all down. But we persist. And I hope you're right. I do agree that is a form of politicization.
Speaker:I just feel like it's just too slow for us right now. But perhaps we are in a different gear,
Speaker:because I don't want to wait until we're in the conditions that you described. or the conditions
Speaker:that we see in Gaza, like we need our people to get there sooner, not like in an armed resistance,
Speaker:but in that frame of mind where we stand together, regardless of the differences that we can spot,
Speaker:and be focused. I wanna read one of the quotes that I found in your writing, and I've just
Speaker:been purging through your writing, so I can't even remember where I found this, but. You
Speaker:say like, I can't remember right in the day there. Well, it's OK. I'm going to read it
Speaker:and you're going to have to explain it anyway. But, you know, I think you already kind of
Speaker:have. But let's go into it. When a people finds itself in subjugation, oppressed and dispossessed,
Speaker:that is facing a permanent threat which has dispirited and demoralized them. The righteousness
Speaker:of their cause amounts to not in the absence of leadership. organization and strategy. You
Speaker:describe a victory. I know you say you didn't get everything you got, but you're still working
Speaker:towards that goal. The struggle has not ended. You know, revolutions are constant anyway.
Speaker:But I worry about Palestine. I wanna envision a free Palestine here. What does that organization
Speaker:leadership and strategy need to look like then? Like, and you're kind of armchair quarterbacking.
Speaker:Is that a term you understand in Ireland? Yeah. But how do we get there? How do they come out
Speaker:on the other side with self-determination? Because surely their struggle is righteous and they
Speaker:have lots of people behind them. But is it focused enough? Is it organized enough? Well, you know,
Speaker:the deep divisions within Palestinian organizations is exploited to the hilt by Israel and America.
Speaker:So, you know, the other old phrase, divide and conquer. has been successfully pursued by at
Speaker:least for at least 30, 33 years now. And from a human point of view, there are people in
Speaker:the West Bank who probably look at Gaza and say, we don't want that, even though it's our
Speaker:people, you know, so let's not push it. And that, that in itself is a need to Israel, unfortunately.
Speaker:So we need, we need Palestinian unity. And they need to strive for that. And you can see, for
Speaker:example, how even Joe Biden, or maybe it was Netanyahu— I love how you can't tell the difference.
Speaker:Let's slip. I know both are warmongers. Both are genocide supporters. They said— And they
Speaker:let this slip. We need a Palestinian Authority in Gaza. Now, that's code for somebody who
Speaker:we can run, somebody who will do our bidding. As you described in the South of Ireland. South
Speaker:of Ireland accepted Partition, pretended that they were opposed to it, pretended they wanted
Speaker:it in Ireland. And what we had there was the buildup of a class that was comfortable. to
Speaker:the extent, by the way, and I wrote a book about this last year, to the extent that they call
Speaker:the 26 counties Ireland. So they talk about Ireland and Northern Ireland. You know, and
Speaker:it is a disgrace. But that aside, so in the case of the Palestinians, the other unfortunate
Speaker:thing is we need a revolution. We need the people in Egypt who already tried it and were
Speaker:an American puppet who won't let anybody cross at the Rafa crossing, whether it is real permission.
Speaker:I mean totally, totally craven cartily, disgraceful. And of course Syria, civil war fomented by
Speaker:the West, so they're in a weakened position. Lebanon, very, very weak economy.
Speaker:there, right? So you look at it, you know, and, you know, unfortunately, and people have to
Speaker:look at this, every time Palestine, Palestine has risen up, it's lost more territory. It
Speaker:shrunk. But it has massive support around the world. That support needs to be organized and
Speaker:focused. And we, you know, we need to put pressure on Israel now, the whole thorny question of
Speaker:If I was a Palestinian living in the West Bank or living in Gaza, would I recognise the rate
Speaker:of Israel to exist? I can't answer that for them. I can look at it as a pragmatist from
Speaker:which side and say to myself, well, strategically, if I wanted to maximise what I would get, I
Speaker:would have to do certain things which in the past have been unconscionable. But it's not
Speaker:up for us to. to air. describe the road map for them, but certainly they have our support
Speaker:and our sympathy. We spot injustice, we spot the cruelty of it, we spot the hypocrisy of
Speaker:it and the immorality of it and we, ourselves in our own societies, we have to challenge
Speaker:this. These people lead us remember, these people claim to run our destiny, so we have to challenge
Speaker:them because they have shown themselves, they have exposed themselves. So there's going to
Speaker:be multiple from what has happened in Palestine and particularly in Gaza. And we as people
Speaker:who are in solidarity, as people who are in our own struggle, because I mean I have a very
Speaker:simple philosophy and an attitude towards Sinn Féin getting into government in the South.
Speaker:What I want to see is wealth move from the top down to the bottom. I want a fairer distribution
Speaker:of wealth. And that applies right across the board. internationally. So all of these struggles
Speaker:are related to our struggles. The type of leaders that we have, when you scrape them, they really
Speaker:expose themselves. They are vulgar, they are valid, they are immoral. They will justify
Speaker:starving premature babies in incubators of oxygen. Imagine that. I would never want to be associated
Speaker:with them. Any advice to folks on how we push back against, effectively push back against
Speaker:that giant PR machine that exists? And so every kind of country is experiencing in different
Speaker:levels, but. Well, you're gonna have to be prepared to be demonized, but you have to develop a
Speaker:thick skin. And when they throw things at you, oh, you're a Holocaust in there, or you're
Speaker:supporting that, whatever they throw at you, just as long as you know yourself, in your
Speaker:heart. and in your soul, I am fighting here for a just cause. Don't let them get, just
Speaker:bring up the arguments. No, you're not. You're not what they're saying you are. And you just
Speaker:have to keep fighting and struggling and find the energy and find the stamina. I mean, when
Speaker:I joined the Republic of Struggle, I was told it was gonna be over by Christmas. Right? Here
Speaker:you are. Then 35, 40 years later, you're still at it, but we're in it in a different way.
Speaker:We're fortunate that we had good leaders, that we had leaders who were... I mean, even Tony
Speaker:Blair's lead advisor wrote a book and he described Martin McGillis and Gerry Adams as superb negotiators.
Speaker:And they were trained. It was instinctive with them. They'd been around a long time. They
Speaker:dealt with British leaders. I mean, Adams himself met British for the first time in July 1972.
Speaker:51 years ago and they released him early from jail so that he could attend those talks. So
Speaker:leadership is very, very important but we all know what we're saying is right. It's not as
Speaker:if we've doubts about ourselves. So we just have to muster the energy and confront the
Speaker:people. I know it's a tiny, tiny point. See on Twitter, anybody, once I see any sign of
Speaker:Zionism or even if they're trying to be reasonable. I just block them because they're not going
Speaker:to come onto my platform, right, to try and undermine the argument of people who are suffering.
Speaker:No, I don't have time for them. They'll go on and find their own platform. It's not censorship
Speaker:because I'm not stopping them, but I'm certainly not going to listen to them because I've heard
Speaker:enough of them and I know who they are and what they are. Once you have your resolve, like
Speaker:there's no doubting some people are listening to you, they're nodding their head, right?
Speaker:They're in it. They're ready to get attacked. But then how do we build to the critical mass
Speaker:without experiencing, without everyone experiencing those conditions of oppression that we've talked
Speaker:about not wanting to get to that state? So a lot of our difficulties are our neighbors,
Speaker:folks we know that know better, but they're not willing to step into that discomfort or
Speaker:perhaps they only read the mainstream news that is... And so they're only absorbing one side
Speaker:of the story. And because of that demonization that we're willing to take and slough off,
Speaker:but it still sticks as a label for someone exterior to us. And so how do you win that public opinion
Speaker:war that surely the Irish Republican army had to fight amongst their own people, you know,
Speaker:in terms of tactics used or. Well, I support what happened. I mean, the IRA support went
Speaker:up and down depending on things that they did. If supporters didn't approve of things, they
Speaker:let the IRA know. So that reflect the nature of the struggle was also a reflection of the
Speaker:nature of the support. But there's times when people have to do things, just make decisions.
Speaker:Like, for example, the men and women who went out took over the GPO in Dublin in 1916, just
Speaker:to say There's no mandate, no electoral mandate. In fact, the party was the Irish Parliamentary
Speaker:Party, John Rebbens' party, which was collaborating with the British and sent in young Irish men
Speaker:to the Sáam and to Gallipoli. So there's times when leadership just has to be overriding.
Speaker:And it's in retrospect that we see the wisdom of their decisions. But I mean, depraving friends
Speaker:of Zionism of money. Because we know they love money, they love liquor, they love the dollar,
Speaker:they love the gold bar. So, however small you're doing it, it's still hurting them. So, if you
Speaker:can get five people to join in and not go to McDonald's because they were feeding the IDF
Speaker:before they stormed Gaza, giving them free meals, right? That's depriving them of capital. It
Speaker:kicks in at some place. It's hard to say, for example, even whenever the boycott campaign
Speaker:against apartheid, whether it hit its critical mass. And it did. There's examples throughout
Speaker:history, by the way, of people suddenly having change of minds. What do you call the governor
Speaker:who stood in front of the young black girls trying to get into college? George Wallace.
Speaker:I think George Wallace, somebody tried to assassinate him. and he ended up in the wheelchair and
Speaker:then he had a complete spiritual change of mind with regards to civil rights. So you don't
Speaker:know when you're going to reach that point but you keep going and you keep going and you keep
Speaker:going and then suddenly you're broken through a wall and it's amazing. It's really when you
Speaker:look back you see how much digging you did and you succeeded. So take heart, take... the protests
Speaker:are extraordinary, astonishing protests everywhere. There's been protests in Belfast... Four times
Speaker:a week. We were on a huge march on Saturday, huge march in Manchester yesterday. It's gonna
Speaker:be a huge march in Dublin next Saturday. So it's there and it's hurting them. You know
Speaker:it's hurting them because the way they're snapping. I mean, Ben's snapping. Ben's not gonna win
Speaker:the election. Ben's lost the election. There is gonna be a political fallout here as well
Speaker:in Canada. They need to, if they want to get elected at all, they need to get rid of him
Speaker:and put somebody else in. who is untainted. And that'll be difficult enough because the
Speaker:Democrats have been funded and big friends of Xan's for a long time. Although a lot of the
Speaker:younger people in the Democratic party are protesting and signing letters, which is good. Yeah, no,
Speaker:in Canada here, we lack a strong political left as well in terms of holding the line. So there's
Speaker:a lot of work here to do in terms of that, but I do draw a lot of heart from... speaking to
Speaker:someone who's broken through the wall, you know, not single-handedly, like the way I'm framing
Speaker:it, but can look back. Do you recall Tom Hayden? Tom Hayden. Tom Hayden, he was married to Jane
Speaker:Fonda, and both of them were involved in the anti-war movement. She had gone out to Hanoi
Speaker:in the middle of the war, and the media had dubbed her Hanoi Jane in Tom was involved in
Speaker:that, there was Chicago, the Chicago 7, he features in that, he was involved in that. But I remember
Speaker:him coming over here and he stayed with me in 1976, he and his son Troy, who was about 14
Speaker:months old, stayed with me and my wife. We were walking around, I was pointing out what was
Speaker:happening in our areas, we had a wee co-op school in this area, and he said to me, have you ever
Speaker:read Antonio Gramsci? He said, you know, he says, read his prison stuff. I says, why, what's
Speaker:the point? He says, Kravsky has this theory that a whole lot of people in society, you
Speaker:know, somebody's a plumber, somebody's a school teacher, somebody's a musician, somebody's
Speaker:a student. He says if they all start thinking along the same lines and working towards the
Speaker:same purpose, they turn over society. This is a revolution. So this is what we need to do
Speaker:with all of those people out there and all of their different daily walks of life is to be
Speaker:unified on this subject. has to be given a home. End of. Now, I don't think we're in a position
Speaker:to frame it, to say the dimensions of it. I think we have to leave that up to the Palestinians
Speaker:and I hope they can maximise it. It'll also be determined by things like Saudi Arabia,
Speaker:which is in hock to the USA. You've got Yemen, which has just fought a war with Saudi Arabia,
Speaker:lobbing missiles towards Israeli targets that seize that boat. on Sunday etc. So you have
Speaker:all these struggles going on. Now what is wrong with saying Palestinians should be given their
Speaker:own homeland? Who can argue against that? And the ones who argue against that, you'll see
Speaker:them and you'll expose them. The zanists will come up with excuses. Oh Israel has the right
Speaker:to defend itself. Oh Israel has to have secure borders etc. It's all nonsense. They're all
Speaker:liars. they are. They're all making excuses because they support what's going on, what
Speaker:Israel is doing, and we need to expose them. So our demands, you know, there was a famous
Speaker:Irish Republican, Marxist leader from the 1916 rise in James Connolly, and he says, our demands
Speaker:are most modest. We only want the earth, you know. We have to have these, we want to change
Speaker:things for the better, for our children. And the demand for a Palestinian homeland is unassailable.
Speaker:They will play, Biden says, oh, we'll have talks and all this here. So they're all saying it,
Speaker:but we must make them do it. And we must do it through pressure, through our pocket. Don't
Speaker:give them a cent. Make it hurt them. And... it'll come out the other end with a Palestine.
Speaker:I'm with you, Danny. I'm with you, Danny, because, you know, a leftist in Canada here, we're often
Speaker:searching for that unifying issue, right? Everyone's got different ideas on how to move forward
Speaker:and different priorities, but it's hard to argue the urgency of this at the moment. And you're
Speaker:right, it feels like that one almost litmus test for comrades. You know, you're either
Speaker:with us or against us on this, and we need to know. Look at the hypocrisy of the replic over
Speaker:Ukraine. So we're looking into the rights and wrongs of it, right? The fact of the matter
Speaker:is that they are valuable, totally amplifying, condemning a bomb going into a civilian area
Speaker:in Ukraine, and yet they don't have the same response to an Israeli bomb going into Palestine.
Speaker:and just keep hitting them with their contradictions and letting everybody know. I feel like they
Speaker:would be happy if we forgot about Ukraine at the moment. I think that the hypocrisy that
Speaker:exists there is too great. And so we have found our media essentially just, we are not talking
Speaker:about Ukraine at all anymore. Also because our parliament invited a Ukrainian Nazi. to the
Speaker:legislature and they all applauded them as though they didn't know who fought the communists.
Speaker:It didn't matter, as long as you were fighting communists, you were well to be honored. So
Speaker:yeah, the Canadian kind of political memory is as short as the rest of them and we've moved
Speaker:on. So, but you're right, like the hypocrisies are never ending and the more that we press
Speaker:them, the more absurd their responses get. to the point where the Israeli Twitter account
Speaker:almost seems like a satire or something the onion would put together. So, you know, I'm
Speaker:starting to feel that turning of the tide in terms of public opinion as well. And I do wanna
Speaker:sit on that thought from our last episode, talking about what a free Palestine would mean in the
Speaker:greater fight against imperialism. the politicizing that would have by proxy, you know, to the
Speaker:folks who took to the street in Belfast, in Toronto, in Barcelona, although they don't
Speaker:maybe need the lessons that we need, but it would be great to experience a victory like
Speaker:that, to see that it can be done in our time, you know, and in that real time that we're
Speaker:getting, that we're able to experience what's happening in Gaza like no other world event,
Speaker:really. but Santiago, you've been so quiet. I know because I keep chirping up, I have so
Speaker:much to ask to draw out a dandy there, but do you have anything? No, I've just been mostly
Speaker:learning. It's been, there's a lot of new information for me that I, so I've been happy to sit back
Speaker:and learn. And it, I mean, it's, the one thing I notice a lot is just the... parallels to
Speaker:a lot of struggles around the world, right? Myself, I'm Colombian and I was thinking about,
Speaker:as we're talking, I was thinking about Israeli imperialism in Latin America, which is something
Speaker:that people don't know as much about, but there was Israeli funding of right-wing
Speaker:countries like El Salvador, they were heavily involved in Central and South America through
Speaker:a variety of overthrows of governments and right-wing coups and what it really like the reason I
Speaker:bring this up is because it shows like how connected all of these things are to like a greater imperialist
Speaker:movement that links here in Canada, in the UK, in Israel, and affects so much of the oppressed
Speaker:peoples around the world and it's all connected and it's part of the reason why so many people
Speaker:have been able to look at the struggle in Palestine and find those similarities and relate to what's
Speaker:happening and yeah, don't know where to go from that but I'm happy to keep
Speaker:One day you break through, you know, and you'll, we have to exhaust them and we can't exhaust
Speaker:them. So that means an awful lot of energy. We have to invest in this struggle. Even small
Speaker:things like you write 10 letters to the newspaper and they don't publish it. And then you get
Speaker:one letter published, you know, and somebody who hasn't heard your view or opinion before
Speaker:is suddenly, you know, can see it and... saying, oh, I never knew that there. You know, that's
Speaker:a new fact for me. So it's just non-stop, it's part of the grind. And, you know, we're lucky
Speaker:too, because we have a bit, we have a great tradition of rebel musations as well. You know,
Speaker:rebel songs, rebel songs, such a big, one of our rebel songs, by the way, like has made
Speaker:international use. And I'm not sure if you've ever heard of a group called the Wolf Tones,
Speaker:but the Wolf Tones wrote this song. And part of the part of the chorus goes, OO A UP THE
Speaker:RA, where the RA stands for the IRA. And they've sang it at concerts, thousands of people have
Speaker:sang it, and the establishment goes, there's been editorials written about it, because it's
Speaker:young people don't know what, they're supporting the IRA, and they don't know they're supporting
Speaker:the IRA, and they don't know what the IRA did. This is despite the fact that they spend every
Speaker:week telling them what the IRA did 30 years ago. So, I mean, there's all these little battles
Speaker:that can be won and there's all, there's pluses along the way and every plus we just move us
Speaker:along to the next stage. So I would just say keep the chin up and keep marching and keep
Speaker:fighting and keep struggling and keep articulating until we break them.
Speaker:That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Also,
Speaker:a very big thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Halu-Quintero. Blueprints of
Speaker:Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively. You can follow us on Twitter
Speaker:at BPofDisruption. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the status quo, please
Speaker:share our content and if you have the means, consider becoming a patron. Not only does our
Speaker:support come from the progressive community, so does our content. So reach out to us and
Speaker:let us know what or who we should be amplifying. So until next time, keep disrupting.
