Criminalizing Palestinian Resistance
Various media figures, organizations and politicians have been sharing, in some cases creating, misinformation with seemingly malicious intent.
Bad faith actors stoking and weaponizing people's fears. But to what end?
Hosts Jessa McLean and Santiago Helou Quintero give their takes on some of the worst offenders from this week's attacks on the pro-Palestinian movement, including Ben Mulroney, Bob Rae, CIJA, Jesse Brown, Toronto City Council and of course, the Police.
Justin Trudeau does not come off unscathed in this episode either. We discuss Canada's hardening position around a ceasefire and the illegal occupation and our abysmal record at the UN.
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Transcript
There is so much out there to get mad about. Social injustices, class warfare, continued
Speaker:colonization, the act of destruction of our planet by those focused on prophets and not
Speaker:people. We can find it overwhelming at times. The good news is there are equally as many,
Speaker:if not more, stories of people coming together and rising up against the forces at play. So
Speaker:the creators of Blueprints of Disruption have added a new weekly segment, Ravel Rants, where
Speaker:we will unpack the stories that have us most riled up, share calls to action, and most importantly,
Speaker:celebrate resistance. Someone tweeted out today, has the Canadian media gone into some sort
Speaker:of meltdown mode? And I totally was feeling that. This last week has just been particularly
Speaker:enraging. Like I know we've talked in the last since October 7th. We have talked many, many
Speaker:times before that. Well before that, our frustrations with mainstream media and forced narratives
Speaker:and manufactured consent. But like this last week has been something else. So there's a
Speaker:few cases that particularly demonstrate the absurdity, maybe the desperation. that's on
Speaker:display in order to justify what we're seeing in Gaza. Because in the end, all of the arguments
Speaker:that happen, I feel they're all part of that justification. And we're going to get into
Speaker:that as we go through this week's rant. But yeah, there's a few figures within the Canadian
Speaker:media and just the political scene in general that have particularly drawn my ire. I'm going
Speaker:to start with the most ridiculous because it really pissed me off and even like my family
Speaker:doesn't often hear about my Twitter interactions. But when Warren Consilla came out, this is
Speaker:a former advisor to Jean Cratchani, a liberal advisor, he thinks he's something else, he
Speaker:tweets out and writes a column to go along with it. that says anybody at the pro-Palestinian
Speaker:rally that particular weekend should either be deported if they weren't citizens of Canada
Speaker:or arrested. We're talking about tens of thousands of people in city centers and even smaller
Speaker:towns, like across Canada, and that's the literal definition of fucking fascism. Because that
Speaker:isn't even like common opinion. Right? We know three out of four Canadians actually don't
Speaker:even agree with the Israeli apartheid. So this is strictly the opinion of the very, very top.
Speaker:Right now it looks like Justin Trudeau and his closest friends, to be honest. But, and if
Speaker:you don't agree with them, if you bother to stand out in the street and speak against them,
Speaker:you have media pundits and political advisors calling for mass arrests. And this isn't to
Speaker:be dis- This isn't to dismiss these folks, like when I make fun of who he really is and the
Speaker:fact that Ben Mulrooney backed him up. It's happening. An organizer in Calgary has been
Speaker:arrested by police and charged with disrupting the peace for leading a chant, the chant that
Speaker:we talk about many, many times now, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free. And
Speaker:not just disrupting the peace, they've added a hate motivation charge. So like these kinds
Speaker:of narratives that these folks are printing out there are happening. They're being realized.
Speaker:And that is fucking fascism. But, you know, on the good side of that story, even after
Speaker:Warren Consilla deleted his tweet, obviously he was feeling the heat on that one because
Speaker:it was just unquestionably awful. So xenophobic as well to go back to the deport them, right?
Speaker:They don't agree with Canadian values. Deport them. And it's some white man in an office
Speaker:deciding what Canadian values are. But Ben Mulrooney, for folks that don't know, you know, this is
Speaker:Brian Mulrooney's son, part of the Canadian empire of brown envelopes stuffed with cash
Speaker:from capitalists. He doubles down on this shit over and over again, to the point where he's
Speaker:lost his ambassadorship with the CNIB, the Canadian National Institute for the Blind. So, you know,
Speaker:cancel culture strikes again. But this stuff just reverberates. Like you have prominent,
Speaker:I say that, e-news talk fame, but semi-prominent people openly calling for fascist solutions
Speaker:to dissent. And yeah, it's that and what we're seeing from a lot of other groups is just creating
Speaker:this atmosphere where it's impossible to talk about this constructively. without having to
Speaker:deflect all of these ridiculous claims on top of it, right? And these sidetrack issues that
Speaker:really, I think, just serve to remove Palestinian voices from the conversation, right? Look to
Speaker:like center anything else but what's happening to the people in Gaza. Right. Here's the good
Speaker:news is I think that is a sign that they've lost control of the narrative. fully, right?
Speaker:They're going into these fascist tactics for a reason, because they can see, you know, like,
Speaker:how many people showed up in Toronto this weekend? I don't even know what the number is. No one
Speaker:can give us an accurate number ever. A shit ton of people is what it was. Yeah. You know,
Speaker:I'm seeing, you know, I'm overhearing conversations as I walk through the streets, where I'm hiring
Speaker:people. talk about how, oh, like they didn't know anything about this issue, and they've
Speaker:gone and they've read and they're concerned about this and they're concerned. They're like,
Speaker:oh, but like, Israel's clearly the one with all the power here. So they're like, you know,
Speaker:this oppression of the Palestinians, that can't be right. What's going on? Literal conversations
Speaker:I'm hearing on streetcars, you know, like I'm seeing Palestinian pins everywhere. I'm seeing,
Speaker:like in my day to day walk, and I mean, that's my anecdotal experience. And I know that that's
Speaker:what that like that. Anecdotal is what anecdotal is. But my point being like, you're seeing
Speaker:on mass the narrative shift away from, from what it was in the first few weeks, from what
Speaker:the major sources of information have been trying, the narrative that they've been trying to craft
Speaker:and they've been left with nothing but to try these fascist tactics to try and regain it.
Speaker:Oh, we're just not going to let you say this. We're gonna start arresting people. We're gonna
Speaker:strike fear in you. Well, I wanna make you feel a little better. It's not just anecdotal. That
Speaker:might be your anecdote from the week, what you've heard, but Toronto wasn't an isolated situation.
Speaker:The Prime Minister of England told them, don't you dare use arms to stay, Remembrance Day,
Speaker:to protest. Don't you dare come to our streets on Veterans Day. And surely almost a million
Speaker:people did. So just like we're trying to figure out if that was the largest protest Toronto's
Speaker:ever seen on November 12th, November 11th saw something unimaginable in London, again, we
Speaker:said it on the show, this is repeated in many, many cities. Like I spent, I felt like all
Speaker:day yesterday just retweeting people from different cities around Canada and their shots of how
Speaker:big the crowd was. Even I was in Barrie and I'd say that there was about a hundred people
Speaker:there and this started, the first time I went to Barrie for this, it was like 12th. And he...
Speaker:there was more than 12 flags this time. And it's not just anecdotal. More people are learning
Speaker:about the occupation and apartheid. More people are understanding what Zionism is and the actual
Speaker:goals of Israel. These conversations are happening, but just not in the most prominent spaces.
Speaker:But it doesn't matter. They're still taking foot. I'm going to center on a word there,
Speaker:apartheid, because I had a recent realization, I guess, that people aren't as familiar with
Speaker:the concept of apartheid as I believe they would be. It happened several times where, you know,
Speaker:I've been discussing apartheid and someone's like, what's apartheid? Or, you know, like
Speaker:people were asking, like, what does that mean? What is that word? And you know, when you explain
Speaker:it to people, they're like, oh, that's bad. Because I think that like, based on like, you
Speaker:know, like the things that we've been taught and the thing, you know, like, you know, you
Speaker:know, slavery bad and all these things. And like, you know, people, people look at apartheid
Speaker:and, you know, most people get it. Oh, that's not the world that we want to build. And it's
Speaker:part of the reason why they've made such an effort to, to not have that be part of the
Speaker:narrative. Oh yeah. Because I asked you when you told me this, do they not teach apartheid
Speaker:in school? And I'm so old, it's been so long since I've been in school. And my family taught
Speaker:me about South Africa and apartheid. And Santiago, we're like, no, like, of course not. We can't
Speaker:be showing Canadian children the model, right? Like, because they're going to draw too many
Speaker:parallels between our history and apartheid. And even when we had Chris Ramp's groups on
Speaker:justice for migrant workers, I mean, he was able to make the very strong argument that
Speaker:what those folks are experiencing is a form of apartheid. So. But I would love to see,
Speaker:and actually we could look it up now, but I probably won't, the trends of terms. So how
Speaker:often are people now looking up apartheid versus what they were doing 40 days ago? Israeli occupation,
Speaker:like certain phrases that we needed in the narrative a long time ago are catching fire. now. And
Speaker:there's no putting this back in the box. We can talk about people having short-term memory
Speaker:loss when it comes to politics, but this is something else. This is another one of those
Speaker:global collective traumas that we've experienced because we've watched what's happening firsthand
Speaker:to the people of Palestine. And so there's no erasing those images from people's minds ever
Speaker:again. You can then repackage it afterwards if that's possible. I just don't think you'll
Speaker:have the political capital to do that anywhere. But... Even if you do try, this is something
Speaker:else. This isn't something you could rewrite now thanks to the reach of social media and
Speaker:whatnot. But I want to go back into that desperation that we're seeing, right? The stuff that really
Speaker:kind of got me pissed off this week centered on what you see in social media. And that has
Speaker:a huge impact. And in particular, CJA. That is the... Center for Israeli and Jewish Affairs,
Speaker:they sent out two really awful tweets that had the fingerprints of actually being manipulated
Speaker:and surely, blatantly, I can say with confidence, were completely misrepresented with purpose,
Speaker:with malice. So the first one, I'm sure we've all seen protesters confronting one another
Speaker:at Concordia University, fully showing everyone's face, tried to dox her, saying she said one
Speaker:word. Other people say she said another word. I can't repeat either of the words on here,
Speaker:but there's no attempt to verify. It's just immediately sent out with the most sensationalist
Speaker:purposes, and we've seen that they've taken down that tweet after considerable heed and
Speaker:pushback. But I think the worst one was just so obvious, so reeked of desperation and manipulation,
Speaker:and completely designed to stoke fear into the Jewish community that they claim to represent.
Speaker:They took a video of protesters outside of an Ontario high school. that were clearly chanting
Speaker:a chant we've all heard at every rally in the last 30 days, Trudeau Trudeau, you can't hide,
Speaker:we'll charge you with genocide. And they put it out there and said, and put the caption
Speaker:as though the students were saying, Judah, you can't hide, we will charge you with genocide.
Speaker:And I can't verify this, but to my ear, it sounded like it was even sped up the audio. And even
Speaker:with that sped up or manipulated sound, it was still clear to me what they were saying. And
Speaker:again, they take this tweet down, but only after all these sensationalist claims that we've
Speaker:seen around war, which, you know, this war, or we can't call this war, around this conflict,
Speaker:like all conflicts, it goes out there. There's no putting it back in the box again. Even the
Speaker:retractions come so quietly, like in this case, they just deleted the tweet. There was no acknowledgement
Speaker:that they completely manipulated the situation. And so you go from students actually targeting
Speaker:a liberal prime minister, a valid target of a chant, a person you could actually charge
Speaker:with war crimes, to making it look like a mob of students hunting down Jews. But that is
Speaker:a huge difference. This framing of all of these rallies as being against Jewish people, that's
Speaker:inciting so much fear in the Jewish community. So I do not deny when the Jesse Browns out
Speaker:there say, you know, your Jewish neighbours are not doing well. Like they're, you know,
Speaker:someone firebombed a fucking synagogue and you've got a Jewish school in Montreal that has been
Speaker:shot at twice. So There is already fear within the Jewish community who has already experienced
Speaker:hate crimes and antisemitism for generations. But then you have Sijah who's tasked with fighting
Speaker:this antisemitism, making shit up. That's making it worse. And then it's de-validating all the
Speaker:work that genuinely goes into fighting antisemitism. to pointing it out within our very own movement
Speaker:because it exists. You know, it's not black or white. It's not like, oh, this movement
Speaker:isn't anti-Semitic. It isn't at its core, but that's not to say there aren't anti-Semites
Speaker:within it, but to then conflate these legitimate targets like a prime minister or a Zionist
Speaker:business and say to the Jewish community that you have so much influence over, right? That
Speaker:you get your newsletter, you're prominent in their eyes, and you tell them, that actually
Speaker:all of this means they hate you, knowing that that's not actually what's happening. I can't
Speaker:help but feel that that's inciting the most amount of fear around this. Because if you're
Speaker:in those rallies, you don't experience, nobody brings the Jewish people into discussion unless
Speaker:they are there asserting themselves as Jews against genocide, for example. I've not heard
Speaker:one speech, I've not heard personally one chant ever. that has been directed at Jewish people
Speaker:whatsoever. And in fact, if you showed up to a pro-Palestinian rally with your kippah on,
Speaker:with obvious Jewishness, right? A sign that identifies you as, or whatever, you would be
Speaker:so warmly welcomed, you know, if you weren't waving an Israeli flag in their face while
Speaker:they're committing genocide. You know, like that is not an unwelcome space for Jewish people
Speaker:and anybody from the Jewish organizations that have been part of these actions. Can you tell
Speaker:you that? So I'm very upset with Sijah right now. I mean, these are the same people who
Speaker:were absolutely relentless in their pursuit of Sarah Jemma. Right? Like they focused in
Speaker:on her, but yet tweet out today that the harassment Canadian politicians who support Israel are
Speaker:facing is unacceptable. That that is some sort of violence. They've lost all legitimacy. CJ
Speaker:is one of those organizations that you look at and you're like, oh yeah, you were operating
Speaker:in absolute bad faith. Like they know exactly what they're doing, you know. There's no, um,
Speaker:oh, there's been misunderstandings or, you know, like, no, they, they're, they're a propaganda
Speaker:machine. You know, their, their goal is to get people behind the Israeli... war crimes, occupation,
Speaker:genocide, apartheid of the Palestinians. And, you know, this is something, you know, nothing
Speaker:new under the sun, but this is something you see in wars. And I feel that we're as the public
Speaker:were not really prepared enough for this kind of propaganda. You know, it's something, you
Speaker:know, you see it constantly. You saw how. In 9-11, people, after 9-11, people were afraid.
Speaker:And how many people used that fear to justify all kinds of horrible things that were really
Speaker:just personal agendas, mainly for capital purposes, right? CJ is weaponizing fear. And there's
Speaker:always people to weaponize fear. And it's really hard to... Like for the people who they're
Speaker:trying to weaponize their fear, it's really hard to make yourself immune to that when you're
Speaker:afraid, when you actively are afraid, when you're actively are concerned, when you're in these
Speaker:emotionally vulnerable states, it's really hard to shield yourself from those effects. And
Speaker:I find that just the lack of concern over this. It's quite telling of something, right? Because,
Speaker:you know, CJA has no accountability. There's nobody holding them accountable. Just like
Speaker:last few years, people have been screaming about Russian propaganda and Russian interference
Speaker:in Canadian politics. Meanwhile, you have an organization that really, like legitimately
Speaker:is a propaganda arm of the Israeli state operating with impunity in Canada. No accountability.
Speaker:Let me just back that up a little bit. Sorry, let me just back that up a little bit because...
Speaker:Dave Gray Donald posted an excellent thread on Twitter that gave the history of Sija and
Speaker:how it was started by Heather Reisman. And we're going to go back to Heather because she's the
Speaker:founder of Indigo. So when we talk about a Jewish-owned bookstore, Jesse Brown says Jewish-owned bookstore,
Speaker:it makes you think like a mom and pop shop, right? Is vandalized. And in fact, he's talking
Speaker:about indigo books. Heather Reisman basically founded CJA in a knee-jerk reaction response
Speaker:to a protest where Netanyahu was unable to speak at an event because students made it so. And
Speaker:they understood that they needed to do a little, a lot more Israeli propaganda here in Canada,
Speaker:that there was a lot of work to do. And so they created CJA. A lot of folks have described
Speaker:it as a hostile takeover of the Canadian Jewish Congress, which was a democratic body, had
Speaker:elections, and was designed to represent the interests of Jewish people in Canada, right?
Speaker:And whatever that means. Even in the name itself, the Center for Israeli and Jewish Affairs.
Speaker:Canada isn't even in the name. And these, again, these are points that David Graydonnell brought
Speaker:up in his thread.
Speaker:So yeah, they don't even pretend to represent Canadian interests. They are secretive about
Speaker:their budget, what it is and where a lot of it comes from. And we do know that they spend
Speaker:like tens of millions of dollars alone just in reiterating Israeli propaganda, almost line
Speaker:by line with the ruling party over there. And So, Santiago isn't just generalizing. There's
Speaker:history there, where they have taken what should have been Jewish interests here in Canada and
Speaker:centered it now on Israeli, and have intrinsically tied those two together as though they're one
Speaker:in the same. And we've spent considerable time here on the show talking, especially with Jeremy
Speaker:Appel, on how Judaism and Zionism are not one in the same. And that is the prominent voice
Speaker:now here in Canada when the media or let's say the Toronto District School Board, for example,
Speaker:are looking for prominent voices, authoritarian voices on what anti-Semitism is. These are
Speaker:the people that they're going to. And that's a huge problem. Yeah. And one more thing about
Speaker:like, you know, when I say they're operating bad faith. You know, and I say this as someone,
Speaker:you know, like I'm learning all the journalistic ethics and everything, you know, seizure operates
Speaker:in a way that's a very much like, with an awareness that the first lie is the one that sticks,
Speaker:you know, they, they post knee jerk, you know, reactionary shit immediately, such as, you
Speaker:know, the, the whole claim of Judah, you can't hide, you know, like they delete it. later.
Speaker:But they know that doesn't really matter. You know, it doesn't really matter that they delete
Speaker:it, you know, they're not somebody who has to respond to elections or accountability of any
Speaker:kind, right? So people are still going to remember that and believe that, you know, and there's
Speaker:people who trust this organization, who trust that this organization is looking out for their
Speaker:interests. They're taking advantage of that. And they're taking advantage of like the human
Speaker:psychology and the way even how social media works. Right. Like you can see how many people
Speaker:would share that video, be like, look at this. But how many people are going to share a tweet
Speaker:that mentions that someone deleted a tweet. Right. Like that's not as sensational. That
Speaker:is not going to get the same algorithm. Because right now, you know. whenever there's times
Speaker:of wars, people are faced and this happens on mass, like everyone's faced with like this
Speaker:uncomfortableness because we, many of us hold like different levels of humanitarian values
Speaker:and such. And then war calls into question all of our values, you know? And if, if you're
Speaker:buying into, you know, one side or the other, whatever, you know, buying into the idea of
Speaker:war in general, like, you're going to have this rationalization to make, right? And so you're,
Speaker:prowl for any information to help you soothe that discomfort, right? So you see something
Speaker:like this and it's like, oh, hey, oh, see, see that thing. See, my concerns are valid, you
Speaker:know. And so, like, it's incredibly powerful. It's an incredibly effective and powerful thing.
Speaker:See, that's why I avoid though, like I've come across plenty of videos. plenty of infographics
Speaker:that show the most horrific actions by Israeli soldiers. I mean, I don't share graphic content
Speaker:pretty much ever because I don't know who's in my feed that's going to be triggered by
Speaker:it. If I consumed it, that's enough. It's for other people to decide whether they consume
Speaker:that. But I purposely, purposely try not to share things that enraged me so much because...
Speaker:You can never really even verify a lot of these videos when they were taken. I am not an expert
Speaker:at identifying soldier uniforms or any of that, right? And so I don't know. And I know that
Speaker:the hate and the rage that it actually generated in me in that moment need not be replicated.
Speaker:That there are enough facts that I know to be true, enough historical context to provide
Speaker:to prove that. the Israeli Zionist government is illegitimate, that the occupation is illegal
Speaker:and oppressive. Because by sharing shit like that, you're purposely stoking just pure anger
Speaker:and you're not even directing it, right? It's not like you have a group of people, you're
Speaker:making a speech, you have a call to action at the end and you're like, and see, I need you
Speaker:to know how bad it is so you will act. You are literally just putting it out there and it's
Speaker:like undirected rage that you don't even know if it's true, right? So when we get into Jesse
Speaker:Brown, I know you kind of mentioned that sometimes people are just looking for that confirmation
Speaker:bias, right? That it justifies what they're feeling or perhaps allows them to blanket over
Speaker:some of the stuff that they don't want to look at. And often it serves to center themselves.
Speaker:And, you know, I tweeted when I, I'm talking about Jesse Brown's tweet today too. He is
Speaker:a Canadian media publisher, Canada land. fellow podcaster, I suppose. And he did the very same
Speaker:things that we're talking about Ceeja. Like he's purposely sent out two tweets that got
Speaker:a lot of traction and they were complete bullshit. And the first one I'm going to get into is
Speaker:the boycott on Indigo that we hinted at. And he had framed that as an anti-Semitic targeting
Speaker:of a Jewish business. And we've seen Olivia Chow repeat, and a lot of people repeat these
Speaker:refrains when it comes to actually Zionist business. I mean, we talked about Aroma Cafe on a previous
Speaker:episode, but Indigo is a different beast altogether. And Jesse Brown has been in the game long enough
Speaker:to know that Indigo has been a valid boycott target since 2007, since it became apparent
Speaker:that Heather Reisman, the founder... Not only was that the center of what we talked about
Speaker:earlier in terms of CJA, but she founded HESEC Foundation. That's H-E-S-E-G, Foundation for
Speaker:Lone IDF Soldiers. What it is, it's a recruitment program for foreigners to join the IDF that
Speaker:operates on Canadian soil. I hate saying Canadian soil, that's such an awful term. You know what
Speaker:I'm talking about. So That's illegal, really. It's done under the list like guise of a charitable
Speaker:foundation. But you are recruiting for a foreign military service in another country. That is
Speaker:illegal in Canada, but the IDF do it all the time. So it's not a Jewish-owned business.
Speaker:Reisman is Jewish. But that's not what her identity is based on when you look at the work that
Speaker:she's done. It's a Zionist. That is what her predominant work has been done. It's about
Speaker:centering Israel and their needs, not as a Jewish-owned business. And so he knows this. Jesse Brown
Speaker:knows this. Like when we're talking about bad faith actors and arguments, he became one when
Speaker:he printed that. And then, you know, buried in the replies, he's acknowledged that he's
Speaker:gone off base, but he doesn't remove the tweet. You know, like there's such importance placed
Speaker:on, you know, people's own prominence and place and centering their feelings that were valid
Speaker:in the moment or whatever his excuse is, but they remain. And for me, that is so problematic
Speaker:because if this isn't a right-wing publication, this is considered a left-wing. media publication,
Speaker:independent media, things that we have promoted on the show, not Canada Land specifically,
Speaker:but the need for publications like this. And so he's coming out sounding like the rebel.
Speaker:And I don't know, like that, I got particularly upset with this, especially, we always talk
Speaker:about when it comes from within and he does it again. There's a CTV article that he republishes.
Speaker:using their awful headline, and we've seen so many awful headlines these days, you know,
Speaker:like CP24 called the last weekend a Hamas-Israeli rally in Toronto. Like, that was their headline.
Speaker:But, you know, Jesse Brown, he repeats this stuff. If you read deep within the article,
Speaker:the police say it was not hate related. There were no anti-Semitic messages left. And I'm
Speaker:not one to side with the fucking police. But believe me, they would be loving to lay hate
Speaker:crime charges. We've already given examples of them doing that. And if they were presented
Speaker:with no evidence of the contract, you know what I mean? And Jesse doesn't even bother to mention
Speaker:this within his description of it. Yeah, I don't even know. It's, it's, it's exactly what we
Speaker:were just talking about. Right. And I think that, you know, I don't know that I feel like
Speaker:this story in a way has a certain emotional connection for a lot of people in the sense
Speaker:of like, well, maybe, maybe this is just like a me thing, but Indigo, Indigo chapters, bookstores
Speaker:like that. Like. Something like as a kid, I really enjoyed spending time in, I was a bookworm,
Speaker:being surrounded by all these books. And I used to go to mall, what was the first place I wanna
Speaker:go to? Indigo chapters. Right, so there's a certain like, oh fuck, really? The learning
Speaker:that like. You know the connection. Yeah, that's the face my family makes when they find out
Speaker:there's yet another business we have to boycott, right? Yeah, just make me a list of who we
Speaker:can shop at but what does that feeling feel like initially it feels like I Don't want this
Speaker:to be true. So let me make it not true, you know like oh Let me find some way to justify
Speaker:this is the first feeling. And it is a human thing that we all, you know, like you don't
Speaker:want it to be true. How do I make this not true? How do I change this? You know, it's not that
Speaker:you're narrating that in your head, but that's what the feeling is, right? But I feel like
Speaker:for Jesse, it's not so much as like, Oh, we should be allowed to shop at Indigo, like trying
Speaker:to give people permission to shop at Indigo. He's trying to frame. all the actions of pro-Palestinian
Speaker:work as anti-Semitic. He says he's not. Yeah. But step by step he's doing that. Jesse's completely
Speaker:lost it there. I'm more saying about the effectiveness that this has on the public reading it. reading
Speaker:about this, this is something that people are going to be feeling. And there's a reason that
Speaker:these, like, these are things that no one seems to think about, like, in terms of, like, whenever
Speaker:we're like, spreading information, it's like, we have to like, think of, like, how will these
Speaker:things be perceived? How will these things be received? You know? And that's kind of like
Speaker:what I'm trying to think about here, because like, I know that, like, I didn't want it to
Speaker:be true, you know? But then it's like, okay, that's exactly it. Like, Jesse, I mean, Clint
Speaker:is supposedly a journalist, right? Like, you have Responsibility here than to like figure
Speaker:out these points, you know, you have to it's like there is a responsibility to the public
Speaker:You know because no there was an empty set there was not anti-semitism happening there so you
Speaker:spreading this information means that you're spreading misinformation and like You know
Speaker:like if you want to claim your left it like there are certain like responsibilities here
Speaker:The figure thinking these things out and it goes for all of us, you know, it goes for us,
Speaker:too, you know, like Just to create a bit of an example here, it's so frustrating that feeling
Speaker:of like, oh, there's this horrible oppression happening and nobody seems to be paying attention.
Speaker:And you just want to find a way to get through to people and break through to people. So when
Speaker:horrible things happen... When you hear about something horrible, you immediately want to
Speaker:spread that everywhere because you want to believe like, look, this will be the thing, this will
Speaker:be the thing and people will see how bad it is. And so we're prone to, if someone was to
Speaker:attempt to use our frustration to spread misinformation, I'm sure many of us would be susceptible to
Speaker:it, right? But that's why we have to be constantly vigilant. That's why we have to be making an
Speaker:effort because that frustration, it lies in all of us, right? And so, but like, if you
Speaker:call yourself a journalist, that goes fucking, not even double, that goes like five times
Speaker:for you. You have a fucking responsibility to make sure that your information, you dot your
Speaker:I's, cross your T's, you know what's going on. If there's antisemitism happening, report on
Speaker:it. you need to verify these things right so it's just really frustrating because you know
Speaker:a lot of people you know this one's hitting a lot of people you know a lot of people trusted
Speaker:them a lot of people like really care about you know Canada land and it's like we've lost
Speaker:enough things right like there's nothing sacred you know like We don't have many spaces or
Speaker:places that we can turn to that we feel safe for information. And like, it's all like, it's
Speaker:all leaves us feeling lost and confused and everything. And it's fucking frustrating, you
Speaker:know? And I wanna be clear, cause I did send out something that could be perceived as a
Speaker:bit callous. And it was about the way Jesse and others in the media, but also... politicians,
Speaker:and even like your friends, are continuing to really want to center the feelings of the Jewish
Speaker:community. And well-intentioned people will just say, you know, it is a time that you can
Speaker:recognize the grief of all humans or the impacts to many communities. And that isn't wrong.
Speaker:I do feel for Jewish comrades. And I can imagine that this is a very traumatic experience in
Speaker:itself. But there's two things there. If you have been supportive of the state of Israel
Speaker:in your time, you should be feeling some discomfort in this moment. You should not fear for your
Speaker:life. You should not fear for your safety. You should not fear for your job. But if you have
Speaker:been even quietly propping up Zionism and Israel, buying Israeli bonds, and then seeing what
Speaker:this money has done and what this ideology is doing. there is a discomfort that should be
Speaker:experienced. And I shouldn't center the needs of those people feeling that discomfort at
Speaker:this moment, right? If you have supported the occupier and you are now feeling guilt in any
Speaker:way, that is for you to work through. That is not for me to center while a genocide is being
Speaker:happening, while I'm watching Palestinian voices being almost completely absent from the media.
Speaker:And when they are there, they're cut horribly, like the edits are just horrendous. Like there's
Speaker:just... In this moment, we're talking about over 11,000 dead Palestinians. A land invasion,
Speaker:an annexation, ethnic cleansing. That is happening. It's not being implied in a chant, right? Because
Speaker:of how you've been told to perceive from the river to the sea. It's not being implied in
Speaker:a boycott that people don't like Jewish people. It's, it's actually happening right now. So
Speaker:for me, it's important to be centering Palestinian people in this moment. This is a crisis. It
Speaker:is urgent. There is no actual time and space for us to work through that other shit. I'm
Speaker:sorry. And it comes off as really white supremacy to say that, yeah, but, yeah, but what about
Speaker:how Jewish people are feeling right now? And, you know, I'm not completely rejecting what
Speaker:about ism either, because I've played that. You know, when we were funding Ukraine, I did
Speaker:say, what about Palestine? We were, and we were criticized for that. You know, Joe Roberts
Speaker:went down in flames famously for saying that the left just absolutely cannot mention Palestine
Speaker:in this moment because that is to legitimize it. But at the same time, like this what about-ism
Speaker:and centering Jewish fear, it's a problem because Netanyahu is using that fear to justify what
Speaker:he's doing right now. All of what you're seeing happening in Gaza and the West Bank is being
Speaker:justified out of fear of what might happen. Because you can't take back what Hamas has
Speaker:already done. That's not going to happen. Those people aren't coming back. You likely won't
Speaker:get the hostages back either. If you've seen Gaza, this is sold on the premise that it's
Speaker:defense on what might happen next. That fear. So don't take that fucking fear right now as
Speaker:we're trying to stop that genocide and put it in my face because I don't want to see it right
Speaker:now. Okay, because it's been used to just justify so much shit that you don't get to center it
Speaker:right now. You deal with that on your own right now. And we deal with actual cases of antisemitism
Speaker:and the absolute rise of Islamophobia. Toronto City Council, you know, they're working on
Speaker:essentially
Speaker:And folks, on face value, you can read Pasternak's motion, and it looks like a real genuine attempt
Speaker:to address anti-Semitism and Islamophobia. However, pro-Israeli rallies, you know, at Christie
Speaker:Pitts, are never labeled as pro-genocide rallies. You may see snide comments here and there on
Speaker:the internet, but no media outlet, no politician is going to point at those rallies and say,
Speaker:Right? They're not doing that. That's not labeled Islamophobia when they raised the Israeli flag.
Speaker:But it is when you raise the Palestinian flag. Many times over, like the Maple has put together
Speaker:a great piece on all the people who've lost their job, been arrested, criminalized, silenced,
Speaker:kicked off boards because simply they are asking for an end to the Gaza bombing or asserting
Speaker:Palestinian humanness. You know, that is actively being sold as Criminal intent terrorist intent.
Speaker:So when you see motions like this before City Council and Olivia child looking like she's
Speaker:ready to support it. I believe it passed first reading or I believe it passed I Would need
Speaker:to link it. Um, yeah, I think I think it did so
Speaker:It's not just an attempt to lessen hate. It is, and if you look at James Pasternak, the
Speaker:person who, the counselor who brought this to motion, like he has warned kids to not go to
Speaker:school, to not participate in these anti-Israeli rallies. Like he has really whipped people
Speaker:up along the narratives that we've been talking about today. And so he is the author of that
Speaker:motion. You can bet your bottom dollar it is not designed to address Islamophobia whatsoever.
Speaker:that it's strictly there to do this. And so from the media pundits to the political personalities
Speaker:that we thought we could fucking trust, they've almost all let us down. Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker:It's what we've just been talking about here, just weaponization. And like, it's history
Speaker:repeating itself. That's the, I think that's one of the most frustrating parts about watching
Speaker:everything unfold. It's just like... how much it's all just a cycle of history. How many
Speaker:times we've seen such things play out again. People wanna paint the narrative that like,
Speaker:there's something unique and special and complicated and different about this. No, there isn't.
Speaker:We've seen this kind of situation play out time and time again. I brought it up before when
Speaker:I talk about trusty propaganda, but in justification of the Gulf Wars, there was that story of the...
Speaker:the Iraqi soldiers were taking Kuwait babies out of their incubators and leaving them to
Speaker:die, right? That ended up, turned out was fabricated by a think tank, right? But that got spread
Speaker:everywhere and people were afraid and angry and all of these emotions and then how many
Speaker:people died because of that fake story, you know? Like, the weaponization here, it's horrible
Speaker:because like... Fuck, it's not like, this is not like a symmetrical situation. All this
Speaker:time, like even if, like eventually, you know, Western powers get involved, stop the funding,
Speaker:you know, like we get the things we're demanding, like every day that goes by is unimaginable
Speaker:loss in Palestine, you know? And you can see that they're not, they don't fucking feel that,
Speaker:they don't feel that. And I know, I know that like, at some point it does get difficult,
Speaker:you know, like as these things draw on, it does get fucking difficult to remind yourself, hey,
Speaker:that this is real, that what's happening here is real and devastating and you can't turn
Speaker:away from it. Because you know, we only have like, humans have an incredible capacity to,
Speaker:to adapt to horrible things. And like a new normal. Yeah. So it starts feeling like, oh,
Speaker:this is normal, you know? No, it's not. Do not suppress your humanity. It's not. We need to
Speaker:feel it. We need to feel it. And fucking fight for something better, you know? And you know,
Speaker:actually, you know what? That brings us to the next thing, I guess, which is, you know, there's
Speaker:been all kinds of calls, you know, for a ceasefire. Ceasefire this, ceasefire that. Not even because
Speaker:Trudeau says, what does he call it? A humanitarian pause. You know, Bible almost ceasefire. Do
Speaker:you have that clip? I feel like we should just throw it in here, but I could recreate it.
Speaker:It was like cease. Uh, I mean, humanitarian pause. What I meant to say was cease escalation
Speaker:of hostilities. Like he worked really hard to make sure he did not say the C word. Yeah.
Speaker:They can barely say ceasefire, right? Humanitarian pause, all these things. But then again, you
Speaker:get a ceasefire. Then what? You still have a genocide. You still have the apartheid. You
Speaker:know, it doesn't change the realities. You know what we're not talking about? We're not talking
Speaker:about actual solutions here. And I think that we need to talk about that because we are a
Speaker:part of the problem. You know, Western nations created this problem. Like we've created so
Speaker:many problems in the Middle East by going and drawing up borders for our own convenience
Speaker:without any consideration and under the false belief in, in ethno states as something that
Speaker:should be created in any kind of way. Like what a ridiculous concept, right? And so, you know,
Speaker:this week I wrote an article, an op-ed for the Humber paper, where I was essentially arguing
Speaker:in favor of the one state solution of a, but to be clear, when I say a one state solution,
Speaker:I mean a democratic, secular state with equal rights for all. And I felt- I think socialist
Speaker:would just be a bonus. Yeah, no, I mean, the hope is that would be socialist. But, but the
Speaker:reason I did that was because I was like, you know, like, so frustrated because nobody can
Speaker:tell me what happens next. Nobody can tell me what happens the day after the ceasefire. Nobody
Speaker:can, nobody seems to have any long term solutions. Oh, like, there's a lot of people calling for
Speaker:like the 1967 borders, right? But that just felt Oh, I've seen people just like draw a
Speaker:line in the middle to a north end is Israel. We'll make the bottom Palestine. Everyone has
Speaker:from the river to the sea. We're good. We're done. I can't help but feel like that is such
Speaker:a Western colonialist solution. The idea that we draw lines on a map and that solves our
Speaker:problems. What the fuck? It goes like it goes against like the idea of humanity that like
Speaker:we're. that there's more that brings us in common and together with each other than is a part,
Speaker:you know? You see like Palestinians and Jewish people, anti-Zionist Jews, hand in hand at
Speaker:these protests and you're telling me, oh wait, we need to keep everyone separate? I just cannot
Speaker:believe such a thing. It does not make sense and part of it is informed by the fact You
Speaker:know, I'm Lebanese and my dad, I've been having a lot of conversations with him that I found
Speaker:really interesting because, you know, as somebody who actually fucking lived through horrible
Speaker:war,
Speaker:I get perspectives from him that I'm just not getting elsewhere, right? Like he seen horrible
Speaker:things and he... is fighting so like he is arguing so much in favor of like Palestinian liberation
Speaker:here even though his family fought against the Palestinians right and you know I was talking
Speaker:to him and he was telling me about how in his work there's a there's a Jewish man who looks
Speaker:more like him than anybody who he's ever worked with. Right. And because, you know, he doesn't
Speaker:see a lot of people who look like, I don't see a lot of people who look like me in my day
Speaker:to day, you know, and how he was thinking and like how people always compare how they look
Speaker:alike and stuff. And he was like, yeah, because we're the same people, you know, there's, we're
Speaker:not different Palestinians and, and Israelis are not different. You know, They were not
Speaker:different. And at the end of the day, the Holy Land, like it's sacred to all the Abrahamic
Speaker:religions, not just Judaism and Islam, not just Christianity, but also many smaller, lesser
Speaker:known religions like the Druze or the Samaritans. You know, like there, this is a land that is
Speaker:important to many people and it should be accessible to all people. And if you create some two state
Speaker:dividing things, then. You're just furthering this idea of separation. You're furthering
Speaker:this idea that people are different and that they're enemies of each other and that they're
Speaker:separate because they can't live together because they're so fundamentally different. We can't
Speaker:gather. That's such a racist trope. Yeah. Because they don't mean Israelis can't live peacefully,
Speaker:right? It's always that it's the Muslim population that is framed as inherently violent or Palestinians
Speaker:in particular. And it ignores history. Horrible things happen. That's history. But people find
Speaker:a way to build again afterwards. Lebanon went through decades of civil war. And today in
Speaker:Lebanon, the conflicts are not on sectarian lines. They're based on the corruption of the
Speaker:government in general. But people live together. You know, and I'm not going to paint Lebanon
Speaker:as a fucking success story because it's anything but and honestly, and one of my big criticisms
Speaker:is a lot is the idea of putting like, oh, the president has to be Maronite Christian and
Speaker:the Prime Minister is Sunni and Speaker of Shia or whatever the fuck it is, right? I think
Speaker:that's such a horrible system. I think whenever you try it, like some people are, because there's
Speaker:arguments of creating a bi-national state, right? Where you split the power. Horrible idea. Why?
Speaker:Because whenever you're trying to divide things on sectarian lines, it leads to the rise of
Speaker:authoritarians like Benjamin Netanyahu, the fucking fascist that he is. People like him,
Speaker:they don't just happen. It's the consequences. How is it that Israel got to this point? It's
Speaker:a consequence of trying to create a nation state because it's inherently built on the idea of
Speaker:supremacy, which is an authoritarian idea that lends itself to other authoritarian ideas that
Speaker:lends itself to the rise of fascism. We cannot have that. This is not the kind of world that
Speaker:we should be building. So the idea, yeah, just point of it being that like, and, and just
Speaker:another example, of course, being Bosnia and Herzegovina where, you know, um, just a bi-national
Speaker:nation, I still don't believe in the concept of bi-national nations either, but you know,
Speaker:they separate, they have like three presidents of like Croatia, Serbia, and then the Bosnian
Speaker:president. But you know. It's one country. Like. Anyways, my point being more along the lines
Speaker:of. We like when I'm looking at this situation, I'm looking at my values. I wanted to something
Speaker:to reflect it. And I think the idea of having a state where all peoples have equal rights
Speaker:and freedom to practice their religions, where they live together, where, you know, we're
Speaker:not furthering these fucking. supremacist ideas because that's what it is these colonialist
Speaker:ideas you're not going to fix colonialism with more colonialism You know, oh there's some
Speaker:people that say you can't call what's happening colonialism or imperialism Like you know, they
Speaker:want to remove that literally created by the west You know, this was the brainchild of the
Speaker:uk and Like this was literally colonialism just like the creation of all of the fucking borders
Speaker:in the middle east were colonialism Like it's not just Israel-Palestine, it's every fucking
Speaker:border there. It's most of the fucking Africa, you know? I think the more you point that out,
Speaker:the more easier it becomes to understand why Canada has taken this hyper-Israeli defensive
Speaker:position, almost to the isolating on the world stage. Right? We are really out of step and
Speaker:a lot of people scratch their head and we've talked about the colonial imagination. But-
Speaker:you know, defending this model and not calling it into question, or framing it as colonial,
Speaker:you know, is super important to the Canadian state for itself to remain legitimate because
Speaker:Bob Ray, a lot of folks, you know, you got the former UN ambassadors, Canadian ambassadors
Speaker:to the UN, just aghast. at our recent voting record in the UN, especially when you put it
Speaker:into context of what's happening right now, that we've actually reversed our position.
Speaker:So much gains had been made in terms of the Palestinian diaspora and political maneuvering
Speaker:and whatnot that's happened to get Canada to come around a little bit on its position within
Speaker:the UN and on the state of the illegal occupation. But even before this fall's escalation in hostilities...
Speaker:Canada started to really change its tact again. And I watched a really great six minute video
Speaker:by Breach Media, as always I'll link that. They do a really good job of explaining the relationship
Speaker:between Canada and Israel, and they talk on the colonial aspect as well. But really what
Speaker:it boils down to is US interests. and aligning with US interests and wanting to appear as
Speaker:like major players on the stage. But just to give folks how out of step of the rest of the
Speaker:globe that we are, many states now have recalled US ambassadors or have recalled their Israeli
Speaker:ambassadors. They have cut political ties. There's motions going to the UN very rapidly now to
Speaker:deal with the situation and Canada has... either abstained or voted no. And on the most recent
Speaker:one, it was so basic too. We got into a discussion about the UN and its lack of teeth, that a
Speaker:lot of it essentially are just really statements that don't have any tangible repercussions
Speaker:tied to them or anything. But this one here on November 12th, it was really just for Israel,
Speaker:force Israel to fall under... the fourth Geneva Convention, right? It's Israel to accept the
Speaker:fact that they need to apply to those standards, which means if you occupy somewhere, you need
Speaker:to make sure that you don't bomb their fucking hospitals. So you need to make sure that they
Speaker:have medical care. You also, there's, you know, there's all sorts of criteria that are set
Speaker:in the Geneva Convention on how you're supposed to act if you do occupy somewhere, even though
Speaker:you're not supposed to occupy anywhere. So just to speak to the meaning list of this shit.
Speaker:But even Canada... Oh, before. Another one of the criteria is important to mention there
Speaker:for this convention is that you're not supposed to be transferring your population into the
Speaker:occupied territory. Meaning you're not supposed to be ethnically cleansing this occupied territory.
Speaker:Right? If it's just to secure your own borders or whatever justification you've given it,
Speaker:you're not actually supposed to take it. that's annexing it, that is then, yeah, that's ethnic
Speaker:cleansing, then you're falling into what we're seeing genocide. Because not only have they
Speaker:been systemically eating away at the West Bank illegally, right? This is all established illegal
Speaker:by international law, ruled like 2004, something ridiculous. And they just incrementally taking,
Speaker:taking. But now we've actually seen them annex Gaza, right? The complete north of Gaza is
Speaker:like essentially under the control of the Israeli army. They say they were not going to cede
Speaker:security of the area to it. I can't see them doing so. And so even Canada, when asked to
Speaker:just have them at least take on the role of an occupier, the legal framework, Canada's
Speaker:like, no, no. And we voted only with the US, Israel, Hungary, and like these three micro
Speaker:Asia, micro Asia, these three small island nations. Pacific Island nations, which for the record,
Speaker:the colonialism there, no one fucking talks about, but half of the Pacific Islands is still
Speaker:owned by the France, the US or England. Not only that, but they rely on Western nations
Speaker:to on a lot of aid and they are completely, these are islands that will soon be underwater.
Speaker:And so they're completely beholden to Western nation support because of climate disaster.
Speaker:So it gets even more awful as you look at it, right? So obviously their votes are being leveraged,
Speaker:but these are the actors that Canada is standing with. Santiago, fucking Russia and Ukraine
Speaker:voted together on this, okay? They voted that yes, as an occupier, you need to at least follow
Speaker:these rules. Israel, will you at least agree to that? You know, like they won't, they could
Speaker:come together on this, but Canada still stands apart? Like that is... fucking horrible. So
Speaker:Bob Ray's really drawn the ire of this, right? He is the focal point. Obviously, he's not
Speaker:making all of the decisions. Like this is a man whose job, like if you looked at his feed,
Speaker:you would not know that there's a genocide happening. And he is our ambassador to the UN. He has
Speaker:a role to play here. And someone pointed out, Michael Bookhart made a great point that if
Speaker:you look at his feed and the last time he spoke of El Chifa was to repeat those Israeli claims
Speaker:that there is a Hamas headquarter underneath it. And now we know 15 days after that tweet,
Speaker:that hospital is completely surrounded by Israeli tanks, after being bombarded, after being blockaded
Speaker:of water, medicine, and anything possible. This is the hospital that has the 39 babies in incubators
Speaker:to have already passed away. I haven't gotten any updates as to their situation because the
Speaker:World Health Organization can no longer really communicate with them there. Side note, what's
Speaker:up with Hungary? Because I noticed that they're frequently a descending voice here. One of
Speaker:those is like, you'll see a vote like this, like Canada, US, Hungary. What's up with Hungary?
Speaker:I don't know. One of our viewers has to tweet at us and see if they can explain that to us.
Speaker:I guess my geopolitics isn't on point here. I've noticed this with a few votes. But anyways,
Speaker:yeah, no, it's like... We even abstained from asking for humanitarian truths. So like, you
Speaker:know, Trudeau won't say ceasefire, but, and he says over and over again to our face that
Speaker:yes, he supports humanitarian pause. Like that's as far as we've been able to come along. But
Speaker:when it's time to vote on humanitarian pauses, we abstain. So those two-faced assholes, they
Speaker:don't even, aren't even doing what they're talking about in the media. Those small concessions
Speaker:that we get them to make in the media still don't. don't fall into any fruition. And this
Speaker:is why what we're doing here is so important. When we talk about the West being an active
Speaker:participant, that's what we mean. They're actively not just funding and endorsing. They're funding
Speaker:it. They're endorsing it. They're fighting for it on a global stage. We're actively complacent
Speaker:in this. Not more than complacent. We're participants. Which is why we need to stand up, which is
Speaker:why we need to keep putting pressure because what a fucking contrast to what Toronto looks
Speaker:like, you know? Like the thousands and thousands of people in the marching industries of Toronto.
Speaker:What a fucking contrast to that. It is. And I think that's a huge miscalculation.
Speaker:Between like what their political careers will look like down the road, I believe they're
Speaker:all going to suffer from this. But Also, the imperialist intent behind this has suffered.
Speaker:The masks are off and there has never been this kind of support for Palestinian resistance
Speaker:ever. And it wasn't created by the conditions Hamas created. Israel is to be credited for
Speaker:really waking the world up. And our guest last week... talked about this when they talk about
Speaker:delegitimizing Israel. by sometimes forcing state actors to demonstrate the level of cruelty
Speaker:that they will go to is an unnecessary, sorry, is a necessary step in demonstrating the whole
Speaker:illegitimacy of the occupation. And as horrible as that might imagine, like, and just like
Speaker:the Israeli citizens that can't be brought back. despite the incredible violence that's been
Speaker:vised upon Gaza. We won't get those 11,000 people back plus. Like, they won't come back, but
Speaker:they are martyrs because I believe their deaths. must have purpose now. They have to if that's
Speaker:all we can do. is give their deaths, because we try to stop it, right? Like every day we
Speaker:try to stop it. We can't... It's not stopping. It's getting worse. So they have to have meaning.
Speaker:They have to. And it's why like we need to, we can't stop imagining, you know, that better
Speaker:world. And that's why, you know, one thing I talked about in my article was the West owes
Speaker:some serious fucking reparations, you know.
Speaker:We need to, like, the way I see it, we need to, like, that same money that we're fucking
Speaker:pouring into, like, these endless wars and infinite arms as much as they want. Put that money and
Speaker:go build some fucking infrastructure and build a home, you know? Build, well, you know, fund.
Speaker:I know, I gave you that look because, you know, we don't want to rebuild it in the way that
Speaker:Iraq was rebuilt. No, not in the way. Obviously, like, yeah. But like we need to go and like
Speaker:people say, oh, the one say it's impossible. No, it's not. Not like you're telling me if
Speaker:we were to go and actually facilitate this shit with some financing, it's impossible. No. And
Speaker:that's what we need to do because we, it's our fault. Like it is our fault. And we're so far
Speaker:away from that conversation right now. Like what we're seeing here is we're so fucking
Speaker:far away. No one's even like the discourse is not even close to being that. But this is why
Speaker:like we need to be bold in these times. We need to... Like in the face of darkness, we need
Speaker:to imagine like what we need to remind us of what it is we're fighting for. What is that
Speaker:better world? And I sound so fucking cheesy when I say shit like that, but you know, you
Speaker:do, but it's important because how do you fight for something if you can't envision it, right?
Speaker:Free Palestine is just a slogan. If when asked, what does that look like? You don't have an
Speaker:answer, right? Then you can fight for people and for justness. and all of that and understand
Speaker:that it's still a valid fight, but it takes a different meaning and a different level when
Speaker:you can have that vision. And in the end, you know, that vision has to be determined by the
Speaker:Palestinian people, right? What that rebuilding looks like, what that nation looks like, needs
Speaker:to center the voices of Palestinian people because they've been completely erased for so long.
Speaker:Right. And. Although there's clearly so much work to do in terms of bringing politicians
Speaker:around or whatever that work is going to end up looking like, I am absolutely buoyed by
Speaker:the fact that especially youth, are not going to let this go. And I think as awful as everything
Speaker:has been, I believe we are closer to realizing a free Palestine than we ever have been. and
Speaker:nobody wants to have gotten here this way. but all other efforts to bring people out in the
Speaker:way that they've come out, right? And holding the line the way that the diaspora has been
Speaker:begging us to do before this happened, before it escalated to this point, but it didn't,
Speaker:right? We didn't do enough before it was too late. And like, we don't have to hold onto
Speaker:that. That's not like to like sit with guilt, but it is certainly to like double our efforts
Speaker:at this point. and not have. Like that discussion we had earlier Santiago about not making compromises
Speaker:in those visions. because socialists are always accused of fighting for utopia, right? Like
Speaker:framed as an unachievable utopic vision. But folks can't allow that to happen in this case,
Speaker:right? Because there's been so much compromise and concessions made. And as we go through
Speaker:this, there'll be so many people that want to water down that vision or colonize it. And
Speaker:to maintain the Palestinian vision of what a free Palestine looks like is so important.
Speaker:That's why I really get upset when people try to shut down from the river to the sea, because
Speaker:it's not about what they think it means. Maybe some people have been told that's what it means,
Speaker:and so that it scares them, but that's not what it fucking means. But it's been weaponized
Speaker:because of the borders it suggests. An undoing of what has been done. And that is unacceptable.
Speaker:to imperialists to go back to a full and recognized Palestinian freedom from the Jordan River to
Speaker:the Mediterranean Sea like they were. Full restitution. Right? That is why that is being criminalized,
Speaker:because that can't be normalized. That can't be the vision. That would be unacceptable to
Speaker:U.S. interests in controlling oil in the region. And that's the bottom line. That is a wrap
Speaker:on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Also, a very big
Speaker:thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Halu-Quintero. Blueprints of Disruption is
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