Neighborhoods for Palestine: PAL Solidarity Canada
Local Palestinian solidarity groups are popping up all over Canada. Organizing mostly by federal or provincial riding boundaries, they have been putting massive pressure on their elected representatives. But that isn't all they do...not even close.
Listen in as four activists from Toronto, Edmonton, Montreal and Oakville talk about doing their part to grow a global movement by organizing hyper-locally. Intergenerational knowledge sharing, creating police-free spaces, and mobilizing for further disruption are all on the agenda.
*Episode was recorded April 25, 2024.
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Transcript
Greetings friends. My name is Jess McLean and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints
Speaker:of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining
Speaker:power structures and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,
Speaker:we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle
Speaker:capitalism, decolonize our spaces and bring about the political revolution we know we need.
Speaker:Before we jump into this episode, we just want to quickly mention that this was recorded before
Speaker:the recent encampments at various universities across Canada. And you're going to hear references
Speaker:that might be a little bit out of date, but we still think it's incredibly relevant to
Speaker:what's going on right now. And other than that, please enjoy. I'm welcoming a lot of people
Speaker:to the studio today, so it's not going to be a regular introductions. We have got an eclectic
Speaker:group of people. joining us all from all over Canada, so-called Canada, and what they represent
Speaker:are local groups of Palestinian solidarity activists that are springing up absolutely everywhere.
Speaker:They've done it on a writing basis. And like Asya just said before we started recording,
Speaker:it seems like there's a new one every day. So we're going to talk to them about what their
Speaker:experience has been like organizing at this local level, how they're networking with one
Speaker:another, and just how widespread this local movement is getting. So welcome everybody.
Speaker:There's five, how many guests we have? We have four of you in the studio today, but you'll
Speaker:be sharing perspectives from a lot more groups than that. How many are there? Michelle, did
Speaker:you look that up for us? I looked up for, so my name's Michelle and I'm from Montreal. I
Speaker:work in what's called the Outrement Riding, which is the federal riding. And we have at
Speaker:least 16 groups. Like you said, they keep popping up. So there might be more today, or there
Speaker:might be somebody who I didn't count in the list, but I counted at least 16. Asya, yeah.
Speaker:How many's Toronto got? You've got an Ontario count? So I think Ontario has at least 30.
Speaker:And then maybe, I think BC, I've seen about... eight, but I feel like they're going to start
Speaker:growing real fast. Do you feel like are you all connected with one another or are people
Speaker:just kind of seeing what's happening, popping up and you're just pleasantly surprised by
Speaker:it? So a lot of the groups are connected under the PAL Solidarity Canada umbrella. However,
Speaker:those who are not, we kind of try to rope each other in and eventually put them all in a group
Speaker:and then do subgroups. which is kind of how we met, because the big group is super busy
Speaker:and we wanna keep pushing for more activities and things to bring awareness about Palestine.
Speaker:So it's been really interesting because in Montreal, we have the groups that organized with PAL
Speaker:Solidarity Canada, who started off with federal writings, but we also have groups that started
Speaker:off just because they were people in neighborhoods who wanted to come together and work. So we
Speaker:have some groups that are... neighborhoods that aren't federal writings, and then we kind of
Speaker:connect. So I found that really interesting for the organizing too because we can work
Speaker:together, but then we can also do separate things. And so it kind of makes the movement more powerful
Speaker:to have people kind of thinking in different ways. We've done a lot of like cross group
Speaker:things in that way, which I thought has been really productive. Can you give us some examples?
Speaker:Like I know I've seen two Toronto groups sharing the hosting of a film screening or other kinds
Speaker:of seminar learning education events, which is easy to double up on, but can you give me
Speaker:some other examples of where two different local groups are, are doing something together so
Speaker:that they don't double up on the work? Cause that's the idea of creating alliances and networks,
Speaker:right? So not everybody is doing the same thing. over and over again, but at the same time,
Speaker:if you're all local, you do want to replicate it. So what's that balance like? Oakville.
Speaker:So to Michelle's point, our group in Oakville, we do have two federal writings. We have Oakville
Speaker:and then Oakville North Burlington. We weren't founded from a concerted effort from any kind
Speaker:of national group. It was a pretty organic grassroots campaign. There was a ceasefire motion at our
Speaker:town hall here in Oakville. And the mayor then... basically said that he was distraught from
Speaker:anti-Semitic and bullying messages that he had received, and him and the town counselors left
Speaker:for a recess indefinitely. And then we all kind of decided, hey, they're not gonna listen to
Speaker:our 25 speeches that we prepared, we're gonna give our speeches to one another. So then the
Speaker:town council kind of just became this beautiful public forum where we all made a WhatsApp chat
Speaker:and decided to start organizing together. So in terms of... Working with other groups though,
Speaker:it's been really productive for us to talk to Mississauga groups, groups in Hamilton. We've
Speaker:arranged marches with them. And additionally, we have like a vigil coming up on Sunday. We
Speaker:coordinated with PYM, which is Palestinian Youth Movement, Toronto for Palestine, just to ensure
Speaker:there's no overlapping major events, such as a large march downtown that would conflict
Speaker:with our event. So that's kind of what we've been doing in the background and we've been
Speaker:assisting with things like marshalling, just community support through our activism, and
Speaker:it's been really helpful. I think a big, so my name's Batool, I'm from the Edmonton area.
Speaker:A big way that we've been looking to work together with other groups in Edmonton, so there's a
Speaker:bunch of different groups in Edmonton working. You know, the group centered around the Edmonton
Speaker:Center Riding, which is Randy Boyce-Denau's federal riding, but also other groups within
Speaker:within Edmonton that have just been doing other work. For example, I think we've all come to
Speaker:realize that economic pressure is very important in this effort. And so, whether it's the SJP,
Speaker:the University of Alberta Students for Justice and Peace, Justice in Palestine, or if it's
Speaker:our group with Randy's, organizing around Randy Boycenot. we try to share our efforts in terms
Speaker:of pushes for BDS, and so that there are different targets, but our messaging is the same, our
Speaker:demands are kind of similar, and we're not replicating, we're not redoing work that has already been
Speaker:done. You know, if there's a letter campaign that's in progress, then we can work together
Speaker:on it so that we can adapt it to our different targets and make sure that all of our efforts
Speaker:are in line with one another and that, like, Like we said, we are having that multi-pronged
Speaker:approach so that all avenues, all targets are feeling the pressure to divest from Israeli
Speaker:occupation and apartheid. I love how Oakville's group was given their first organizing space
Speaker:by a bunch of cowards. That's a great story. But, Betul, to your point and to that question
Speaker:that I asked, again, it reminds me of... that episode Santiago we did with the anarchist
Speaker:collective crime think and the need for groups and individuals to be able to move forward
Speaker:in ways that work for them, right? And that are uniquely local because some of you are
Speaker:going to have conservative MPs, some of you are going to have liberal or maybe ND, like
Speaker:varying receptiveness, different types of communities in that regard. But at the same time, there's
Speaker:an importance to keep with the demands set by Palestinians themselves, right, by the larger
Speaker:Palestinian resistance. So anybody want to talk about how to manage that fine line, especially
Speaker:talking about increasing tactics and economic blockades? Because we've talked on the show
Speaker:a lot about different tactics. lobbying is generally a safe avenue. I mean, we've seen people get
Speaker:picked up for asking Krista Freeland questions too closely, but I mean, generally, but there's
Speaker:different risks involved with doing economic blockades and whatnot. So how do you find that
Speaker:balance between letting local groups branch out or subgroups act autonomously? Is that
Speaker:possible within your collective? We always keep the Palestinian demands first and foremost
Speaker:in our organizing efforts, namely that we are demanding Palestinian liberation. We're not
Speaker:asking for ceasefire or humanitarian aid. Those aren't the demands that we're organizing around.
Speaker:Those are steps towards the demands that we're making, but our demands are always going to
Speaker:be Palestinian liberation and those demands are set by. Palestinians globally. And then,
Speaker:once, as a national collective and as a collective of people that are organizing around this subject
Speaker:and around these demands, you know, we might identify an action or a target or a strategy,
Speaker:but then it's up to each riding to adapt those things to their individual circumstances and
Speaker:what's going on for them in a way that makes sense, in a way that is most effective, and
Speaker:that can... considers the risks attached for that individual group or riding. Whether it's
Speaker:a sit-in, a demand for sit-ins, MP offices, you know, if somebody knows that their MP never
Speaker:comes to the office, then, you know, they make different arrangements. If they know that they're
Speaker:riding or their group is not equipped to deal with a certain action in terms of resources,
Speaker:then, you know, they can scale it down. So it just depends on what that writing is able to
Speaker:do, but because those demands are always taken from the global Palestinian liberation demands,
Speaker:we adopted a way that can work with those demands and never compromises them. I just wanted to
Speaker:build on it. I think, yeah, you're 100% right where each writing has to do their own thing,
Speaker:even though here it's one city. some neighborhoods you literally, you just can't walk around in
Speaker:a cofee with. So obviously doing things around your MP is going to be different. Eglinton
Speaker:Lawrence, you can walk around in a cofee. You're just not going to be very comfortable. Just
Speaker:not on a bridge. Yeah, yeah, not on a bridge either. So you can walk around in a cofee.
Speaker:You just kind of have to be mentally and physically prepared. However, for example. we had our
Speaker:first and so far only little block party in front of Marco Mendicino's office. And it was
Speaker:really nice because it was a poetry reading and we stuck a lot of the art we had made the
Speaker:day before from sort of kids and other people that came to do art for Palestine and put it
Speaker:on his window. And because of where we are, a lot of Zionists ended up showing up. and
Speaker:they were very loud and rude. However, it was clear that they were confused and they didn't
Speaker:know what to do. They were like, how the hell do we like disturb a poetry reading? Tell me
Speaker:why one girl was literally just like twirling in circles. No, and I felt so like strange
Speaker:about it too. Because so many of them were like really, really young. Like we're talking like
Speaker:teenagers. Yeah, the Zionists were there that day and that was like, you know, you can see
Speaker:the indoctrination. It's like you haven't had like the lack of awareness of this, like the
Speaker:propaganda that has been fed into this. And, you know, I felt kind of weird about that watching
Speaker:out there. And then there was like the one adult who was toiling with an Israeli flag and it
Speaker:was... Like they wanted so badly to get a reaction, I think. It was really funny watching them
Speaker:not get what they wanted from that. That has real vibes of that video that's going viral
Speaker:now of my brave Jewish wife standing in the middle of the student encampment, just like
Speaker:terrified. And everyone is just like on it's like snack time or something. Like no one's
Speaker:doing anything. Some of them are dancing and wondering what's going on and just, oh, wow.
Speaker:Go ahead. I'm just going to throw in sort of an actually answer your question. And then
Speaker:sorry, Michelle, I'll give it to you. Um, but our writing, we also like, we like to do a
Speaker:lot of community building as every writing kind of should try and do. Cause in the end, we're
Speaker:trying to get everybody on the same page, right? Whether it's about Palestine or policing, we're
Speaker:trying. However, we are also aware that some things are more immediate. So we try and make
Speaker:sure that somebody from our writing group, at least one person, is at every direct action
Speaker:that's happening here, because, like Batul said, disrupting the economy is probably going to
Speaker:be the way that we get this done. And as we're seeing, that's going to become more and more
Speaker:common, which, Eglinton Lawrence will be very involved with. I think that's all I'll say,
Speaker:but, Michelle, go ahead. Yeah, it's interesting we have, we've been working on a similar thing.
Speaker:We've kind of did this organically just because our group had a lot of people. And I know that
Speaker:many of the other Montreal groups have been doing something similar where we've been trying
Speaker:to get more organized to make sure that we send at least one or two people to each thing, because
Speaker:there's so much happening locally. and as well trying to coordinate it, like when we can't
Speaker:do that with each other, we have a Montreal-wide kind of group, so we try to talk about that.
Speaker:But I wanted to circle back and also underline this point that so much of what we're also
Speaker:doing is education, like what you brought up, Santiago, about you're watching those young
Speaker:people and seeing their indoctrination, but really that a lot of the actions that we do,
Speaker:whether they're the more... direct actions or even the kind of like more MP focus things
Speaker:or, you know, handing out the flyers and so on. There's a lot of different types of work
Speaker:that the neighborhoods are doing to educate ourselves and educate each other and then educate
Speaker:our actual literal neighbors, which is different maybe than other kinds of organizing because
Speaker:it has this neighborhood feeling. We're like talking to people that we wouldn't normally
Speaker:necessarily talk to around this very particular thing. And I feel there's like a really a big
Speaker:power in this, these moments, like you said, when you're standing there and you kind of
Speaker:look and, you know, something ridiculous happens or something dangerous happens or something
Speaker:inspiring happens and you're with, you know, someone who you live near or you're with somebody
Speaker:who you're there because they're part of your kind of living space. There's a different kind
Speaker:of environment around that that's really interesting for organizing, I think, and powerful. Organizing
Speaker:at a writing level will necessitate that, right? Because we mentioned, I think again, before
Speaker:we started recording, we always do that, that writings aren't natural communities. They're
Speaker:drawn to a very specific end. So quite often, you know, they include really diverse ranges
Speaker:of communities within them. So my understanding, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the original.
Speaker:purpose of doing these local level groups using the same boundaries, these kind of unnatural
Speaker:boundaries, was because you all had shared a common target, a political point. In Ontario,
Speaker:it's actually, you can count on them having the same MP and same MPPs, which makes it logistically
Speaker:easier, right? You can go to the door of somebody from any one of these kind of communities within
Speaker:a writing and maybe you have different scripts for different neighborhoods, but you have the
Speaker:same target, the same email address and all of that. But you're not partisan though, because
Speaker:every time we have some people on here talking about organizing at the writing level, writing,
Speaker:writing. That's usually very specific to partisan politics. And you've been dealing with a lot
Speaker:of politicians. I was going to speak on just navigating risk levels and activism, but I
Speaker:do want to touch on also the partisan aspect of what we're doing. For example, I did go
Speaker:to a debate about two days ago in Milton, which is part of Halton region, which is part of
Speaker:Oakville. And there was an NDP MPP candidate who was like, hey, can I be added to your WhatsApp
Speaker:group for activism? Absolutely the fuck not.
Speaker:Exactly. So it's been interesting not only navigating interactions. Don't trust anyone that's been
Speaker:vetted and cleared by the NDP. I'll second that. I was just going to say it's been interesting
Speaker:navigating not only interactions with unfriendly and hostile politicians, but also with politicians
Speaker:who are trying to court your community's vote. And also it's important to maintain your impartial.
Speaker:You're not going to necessarily endorse a candidate because like we've seen, we have so many politicians,
Speaker:especially in the GTA, who are diverse. They're from different backgrounds. They could be Arab.
Speaker:They could be Muslim. but they're not necessarily representing the communities that they claim
Speaker:that they're representing when they finally get to the office or when there's pressure
Speaker:on them to vote within their party's line. Oh, well, can you drop the name? So yeah, that's
Speaker:been interesting. I'm thinking about Omar Al-Ghufa in Mississauga. And additionally, when I had
Speaker:a meeting with Anita Anand in Oakville with her staff's office, when we were attempting
Speaker:to drop off pledges in relation to the NDP's opposition day motion, the staff member was
Speaker:speaking to me and said, you know, MP Anand cares deeply about this issue as a woman of
Speaker:color. And initially, that set off alarm bells for me because that's kind of all talk without
Speaker:action to substantiate what they're saying. What's it been like trying to leverage these
Speaker:politicians? Like I want to get maybe an answer from all of you if possible, because here on
Speaker:the show, well, let's just say the show was born from the dismay of the political system.
Speaker:So to say I'm skeptical of efforts to lobby politicians is an understatement, right? So
Speaker:when you talk economic blockades, I'm here. But appealing to folks like Marco Mendicino,
Speaker:and I understand a block party outside of his house is not an appeal to him whatsoever. I
Speaker:didn't, but generally, can you speak to what you think those specific efforts have yielded,
Speaker:trying to get them to at least endorse a ceasefire, the steps that Batul talked about to get to
Speaker:the ultimate goal. But, you know. We've not seen a lot of movement, no? I'll see you. So
Speaker:I just wanna go first, cause I am straight off the bat. That's not what we're doing with Marco
Speaker:Medecino. He's a very racist, Islamophobic person. So we actually went in, like we gathered as
Speaker:a group and kind of decided that we're not gonna convince this guy who dismisses Muslims and
Speaker:Palestinians. We are just here to make sure. that there's always something bothering him,
Speaker:kind of like a mosquito. And we've done that thing. We've sent hundreds of emails and calls
Speaker:and whatever, and he hasn't responded. So we've already done the formal thing, but we did it
Speaker:knowing he wasn't like, we didn't know when he was not going to answer. Um, we've gotten
Speaker:into his office a couple of times. However, it's pretty difficult. They lock it. they get
Speaker:you to call because no drop-ins allowed, allegedly. And so what they do is when you call, they
Speaker:look out the window and they decide. So you have to take your kaffir has to be in your
Speaker:bag at least, or you're not getting in. So we actually saw some staffers this one time when
Speaker:we walked up with their kaffirs, turn off the lights, close the blinds and go sit at their
Speaker:desks and put headphones on. So. This is like so familiar. It's so bad. Like, like, they're
Speaker:actually like, they're so disconnected. And, and, you know, this is this is just his staffers,
Speaker:he doesn't, when we asked him, when we asked them, well, why can we get a meeting with him,
Speaker:his staffers said they don't have access to his schedule. And he gets to choose which emails
Speaker:that he wants to get back to. So they just told us. While he heard your issue, he doesn't really
Speaker:give a shit. And he also doesn't let us see his schedule, uh, as far as they want to tell
Speaker:us for obvious reasons. So we're not here to convince this racist guy. A shared calendar
Speaker:with your MP. We're not here to convince me. And we're just here to make sure that he knows
Speaker:he's being watched. Whatever he decides to work as in the future, he's going to be watched
Speaker:then. All these photos that come up with you when you look at reviews for him are our protest
Speaker:photos or little reviews. We're not the only ones that have had problems with him, by the
Speaker:way, but that's a whole other story. And then also to make sure that the next people who
Speaker:run for this writing know that there's a group of people who are going to hold you accountable
Speaker:and make your life hell from the start if you decide to dismiss Palestine. So our goal is
Speaker:not like reaching this guy's heart who thinks he has faced discrimination because he's Italian.
Speaker:It's other things. So I'll let everybody else go, know that everybody knows we're not trying
Speaker:to do that. Thank you for clearing up. Ours is probably pretty similar to yours, Asya.
Speaker:I mean, I think that's how we met in the first place, right, in the national organizing, because
Speaker:we have a similar kind of MP. The MP in my writing is Rachel Bendayan, who's what the... was she
Speaker:the third or the fourth both lobbied by Sija in the recent report that came out and has
Speaker:stood with Anthony Housefather and kind of done a lot of work that has upheld Zionism and so
Speaker:on, but also tries to at the same time present herself, and this was interesting from what
Speaker:you said, Oakville, and so on, as somebody who really cares very much about racialized communities
Speaker:and one third. of the neighborhood of Côte-des-Neiges in Montreal is part of the Outremont federal
Speaker:writing. So there's this idea that kind of there's some people who are good to be in photo ops
Speaker:with lots of sort of young racialized kids for certain kinds of photo ops, but then like where
Speaker:the attention that she pays in terms of what she does in parliament is actually to a different
Speaker:part of the writing. So our group also made very similar decisions about thinking how to
Speaker:deal with the question we're doing to advocate for Palestine and to work for Palestinian liberation,
Speaker:given that our MP is a Zionist. It's been interesting because it creates a lot of conversations.
Speaker:She did a very similar thing. She won't respond to our calls. She doesn't come into her office.
Speaker:She's been out of her office completely. I won't go through the whole story. You can look at
Speaker:our socials for that. We've done a big campaign about it. Other neighborhoods in Montreal face
Speaker:really similar kinds of questions too. We have Trudeau. So the Papineau pour la Palestine
Speaker:writing, Trudeau is their MP. So how do they organize, right? What do you organize when
Speaker:that's your MP? We have Melanie Jolie. So the Ahonso Cartier writing, that's AC for Palestine.
Speaker:is trying to pressure Jolie. So I think that we've had to use lots of different ways of
Speaker:thinking about what our role as people are when those are our representatives. I think the
Speaker:majority of the people that I've worked with either came into, like me, came into this not
Speaker:necessarily believing in federal politics. or have learned through the process of joining
Speaker:one of these groups and working on the question of Palestine that federal politics doesn't
Speaker:work for us, that we don't actually have a voice, that we are ignored and nobody listens to us.
Speaker:And so we've learned a lot about federal electoral politics in doing the work. So that's been
Speaker:a really cool part of this, like organizing is to really understand not just how it can
Speaker:work for you, but how it actually can't. I agree. That's been the biggest story of these. efforts
Speaker:to organize around federal writings is the complete refusal to even engage with protesters, with
Speaker:concerned community members, with anybody that they don't agree with or don't want to give
Speaker:an ear or a platform to. And there's no recourse to it within the democratic system. There's
Speaker:nothing to force them to meet with us, even though we're their constituents, and that's
Speaker:supposedly what their job is. It's very frustrating, but then in that process, I think we've come
Speaker:to realize that they're... we do still need to place pressure on them because that pressure
Speaker:builds up to those higher ups, like Melanizio Lee, like Trudeau. Because, for example, like
Speaker:Randy Boussineau is a liberal MP. He's, I believe, yeah, the only liberal riding in Edmonton.
Speaker:And his campaign was built on, like, LGBTQ community support. But then when... Queers for Palestine
Speaker:or other groups try to reach him or organize around that like to say like this is the community
Speaker:that you Mobilize to vote for you to give you this seat and you're not listening to our demands
Speaker:on Palestine. I mean, it's completely Complete block out there's no engagement still and so
Speaker:You know, he's seems like he's resigned himself to not being reelected anyways, and so he doesn't
Speaker:feel any pressure so Outside of this system where the concern of the politicians is their
Speaker:next office, there's not really a way... Democracy doesn't work, and we've seen that. What does
Speaker:work is agitation, what does work is disruption, what does work is economic blockades and economic
Speaker:disruptions. Those things... actually feed into the pressure that we're building up and building
Speaker:up and hopefully hoping to kind of pressurize the system as a whole. So you know even while
Speaker:we organize around these individual and specific MPs and writings, the real goal is overall
Speaker:pressure and to sustain it and to build it up as long as possible so that it pops and something
Speaker:gives. I want to put that on a t-shirt. Like, democracy doesn't work. What does work is agitation
Speaker:and disruption. This could be the tagline for our podcast. We're going to, we'll credit you.
Speaker:But it, none of this surprises me. I think like a lot of people who've been involved, like
Speaker:have understood that democracy doesn't work for them. But there are still a lot of people
Speaker:that are learning this for the first time or the extent of its futility. And I find that
Speaker:heartwarming because I want nothing but to pull people out of the fucking legislature and into
Speaker:the streets. Honestly, because, you know, even, you know, anybody who's ever been involved
Speaker:in the NDP, that's that was your first clue that it doesn't work for us, because even the
Speaker:ones that say that, oh, no, we work for you specifically. They don't. So it's very like
Speaker:I could see Santiago smiling too. Well, you know, the t-shirt comment, but his head always
Speaker:whips around when someone's like, no, agitation, disruption. He's like, yes, yes. Because we
Speaker:start talking about sending emails again. My head's going to explode. Not that I'm not talking
Speaker:about you folks. That's a dig at the NDP trying to solve the CAFEA ban in the Ontario legislature
Speaker:at the moment. But but also. One more thing about NDP organizing, I guess. Let's just shit
Speaker:on them for a second. Well, just one thing that's kind of refreshing in this conversation that
Speaker:was a pain back in when I thought NDP organizing was an answer was, like, the writings were
Speaker:super disconnected when you were doing that. It felt like little islands and stuff. And
Speaker:you were kind of subtly discouraged from talking to anybody in any other writing or organizing
Speaker:together. So just like. kind of seeing how that's, you know, with this kind of organizing, you
Speaker:know, it's writing based, but it's not limited to like the physical writings and that there's
Speaker:all this communication going on. That's already like so much more powerful and more effective
Speaker:than what happens in the NDP. Just wanted to share that real quick. Oh, so I saw your hand
Speaker:up. I did just want to add, like I'm from the Southern United States originally. That's where
Speaker:I was born and raised and spent most of my life, so. It's been really interesting for me to
Speaker:go from seeing politicians who don't care if you have clothes on your back and will make
Speaker:it very clear to your face that they feel that way to kind of these performative, placating
Speaker:politicians who will say things that sound very nice and sound like they care about you, but
Speaker:in reality, they don't. I did just want to mention like an anecdote because we were talking about,
Speaker:you know, these disruptions that are economic blockades or that things that are actually
Speaker:more effective when you realize. you know, engaging in democracy and bureaucracy can only take
Speaker:you so far. We've had a lot of interesting and difficult conversations within our own organizing
Speaker:group regarding navigating relations with the police, if we should inform them of our protest
Speaker:routes, if we should inform them of our activities, give them a contact for our group. No, no,
Speaker:no. I hope that's the answer you all came to, yeah? No, but that's a good education. It's
Speaker:good education to do. Right. You all are doing like the that's the best education, right.
Speaker:People to people like saying no, like this is how we have to organize. This is how we have
Speaker:to move forward. It's when you have such a big umbrella, though, that can be a tough conversation
Speaker:with some folks. Right. We talked to a group at a St. John's and they had money stolen from
Speaker:them from a treasurer. But they are an anti-police organization. Right. They believe in social
Speaker:justice. So those two things are not compatible. And they, but they, you know, they again have
Speaker:a really collected group, a wide umbrella, some people that would consider themselves, you
Speaker:know, small L liberals. That's okay. You know, they do the work. But or even maybe our anti-police,
Speaker:like from an understanding that they do only harm, but still wanted vengeance in some way,
Speaker:you know, like still had to work that out of their system. It wasn't just naturally the
Speaker:group came to the decision that no, they wouldn't. to charge them and they wouldn't go to the
Speaker:police and they would find other ways to navigate it. So the navigating needs doing but just
Speaker:for all those people out there that are listening, the answers from me would be a hard no. I see
Speaker:how you're going to deal with me. It's difficult. No, I think Oakville actually had something
Speaker:to finish and then I'll go off. Yeah, I was just going to add, you know, it's difficult
Speaker:when you have someone in your group who's like, hey, my brother is a cop and he's 100% pro-Palestine.
Speaker:not all cops are that bad. And then it kind of snowballs into a longer conversation about
Speaker:group safety. And I think something else that is connected to this topic that I just want
Speaker:to touch on very briefly is, when we discuss these subgroups or people taking their own
Speaker:initiatives within our organizations, it kind of makes you think about to what extent can
Speaker:we protect our branding as a group? For example, we had a subgroup kind of in our umbrella that
Speaker:was arranging for a small demonstration at our town hall. And I looked at the group chat of
Speaker:that group and people were saying, oh, are we going to storm the town hall building? And
Speaker:when you think about that, there's no marshals. They don't have the same protocols that we
Speaker:have with Oakville for Palestine. And it kind of makes you feel like, OK, so to what extent
Speaker:can we protect our branding and our image and ensure that we're always keeping each other
Speaker:safe, be it with without law enforcement? Yeah, there's definitely a concern about that, because,
Speaker:I mean, you can't stop other people from organizing within. the city, you know, and taking up their
Speaker:own actions. But, you know, I mean, certain times some people are not happy with the level
Speaker:of disruption or the level of agitation that's happening. And you don't really know if they've
Speaker:considered the risks effectively. And then other times there's people that are willing to, you
Speaker:know, take a more liberal approach and think that there is some type of positive to be gained
Speaker:from that, from engaging with. MPs engaging with cops and things like that. And, you know,
Speaker:like, it's just a balancing act of trying to advise or keep an eye on other groups and ensure
Speaker:that, you know, Palestinian demands are not being compromised, first and foremost. And
Speaker:then secondly, that safety and risk is being considered because not everybody has the same
Speaker:risk tolerance. And that's just something that needs to be considered when making these types
Speaker:of organizing decisions. And I'm not a dictator, like I can't stop anybody from doing their
Speaker:actions. I just, if I am aware of it, I'm like, have you thought about this? Do you have a
Speaker:plan for that? Yeah, I just kind of wanted to throw in that I do think having both the, you
Speaker:know, disrupting the economy. but also pressuring politicians and gathering the community. I
Speaker:think they need each other, to be honest. I think educating the community, building a relationship,
Speaker:seeing that, you know, making sure that people know that Palestinians are real people, Muslims
Speaker:and Arabs are real people, and sort of reaching out to neighbors and building those connections
Speaker:helps, especially when mainstream media. does this really, really terrible coverage and really
Speaker:racist coverage of Palestinian demonstrations. And then especially the demonstrations that
Speaker:do bother people. They hold up traffic or holding up a train. While stopping the flow of money,
Speaker:which angers people about when they understand. there's a lot more empathy and I think historically
Speaker:we've kind of witnessed that having those two hand in hand is really good. As for the policing
Speaker:thing, I, in my group's opinion, and I feel very confident saying this on behalf of Egman's
Speaker:and Loris' and Don Valley is, we don't think it's safe to do anything with the police. There's
Speaker:a reason why we have marshals at all the protests, at all our little events. It's because we have
Speaker:to protect our members from violent Zionists and from whatever other group. But we also
Speaker:have to protect them from the police, which to this day, the police has harmed much more,
Speaker:many more people at our events than they have helped. So everyone might not agree because
Speaker:that is true. There are literally cops in this movement who are related to like organizers.
Speaker:So maybe not Toronto specifically, but there are. And I think that's really scary and harmful.
Speaker:And we're kind of working on how to introduce, explaining to people that the police is not,
Speaker:they're not your friends. And we're kind of working on doing something to integrate that
Speaker:into communities that are not super exposed to all this stuff. For example, Arab immigrants
Speaker:usually come here and they think, well, this is a democracy. Their authority sort of, you
Speaker:know, it must be good. The police really must be there to protect you. So you should show
Speaker:them respect. And a lot of these immigrants end up having to do a 180 once they see what's
Speaker:happening right in front of their face, once they see their community members being harmed
Speaker:and in a couple of cases now permanently injured. So when you do that outreach, which I'm hoping
Speaker:will be kind of one of the bigger things that we do, we're gonna be talking to different
Speaker:communities and seeing what they understand about policing and what might actually reach
Speaker:them. So once you build that community, you can do the economic actions even more. Yeah,
Speaker:I think that was it for me. And that definitely brings true. It's like you have to build up
Speaker:that community awareness. I've been seeing that so much of the Canadian public is completely...
Speaker:out of touch and out of tune with the political machinations that run the country. And so that
Speaker:education piece is so important. Like you said, Asya, about informing people of what the effects
Speaker:and what the outcomes of these actions can be and also bringing people into an understanding
Speaker:of empire,
Speaker:and policing the links and systems in between all of those different things so that they
Speaker:can understand why Palestinians are protesting in Canada or why people are protesting for
Speaker:Palestine in Canada. What does Canada have to do with it? That's a question that still gets
Speaker:asked. Why we don't work with the police and what are the outcomes that can come from these
Speaker:different types of... disruptive actions. So I totally agree. Sorry. Just I want to let
Speaker:you ask your next question, but I just want to throw in that. I don't know what the rest
Speaker:of the policing organizations in Canada are, but TPS trains with the IOF. They train with
Speaker:the people that are committing the murder. Like, like why do you think the police is going to
Speaker:protect you if they're using the training using, you know, being used to commit a genocide?
Speaker:What are TPS going to learn from that? Does that mean they're going to be using those tactics
Speaker:on you? Like it just takes a little bit of reflection to go into that. But yeah, go ahead. And organizers
Speaker:out there that are having these tough discussions because, you know, you're bringing people in
Speaker:that just haven't gotten there yet. Like we don't want them to always have to face a baton
Speaker:or see their friends get smashed before they get to that point. You need to hold that line.
Speaker:There needs to be discussions, but you need to create. police free zones in order to have
Speaker:safe organizing spaces. They cannot be allowed in your organizing spaces period or else you
Speaker:are actually excluding a ton more people. You're gonna exclude undocumented people, you're gonna
Speaker:exclude sex workers, you're gonna exclude anybody that's been criminalized for any reason. They
Speaker:will not feel safe in your spaces. So if you think that's one loss, one less person at your
Speaker:action, one less skill to draw upon, let it go. Let it the fuck go. Not everyone needs
Speaker:to be brought along. That's police included. I just had to interject there that cause the
Speaker:idea that there's groups out there organizing for Palestine that have police in them. I mean,
Speaker:some of them you have police in them and you just don't know, but you don't need to let
Speaker:them in just through the fucking front door. That's not cool. So please get there if you're
Speaker:not there already. We've got a playlist for you. We'll share it in the show notes. A million
Speaker:and one reasons why we keep us safe and the police absolutely do not. But yeah, that's
Speaker:become a real reality for folks organizing in the Palestinian Solidarity Movement. And wanted
Speaker:to ask you folks, because we probably won't get a chance to talk about it separately, but
Speaker:we're seeing a lot of... campuses in the United States and here in Canada, McGill comes to
Speaker:mind, that are taking over spaces on their university, encampments, occupations, you can call them
Speaker:whatever you want. And some are being met with incredible police resistance. But I was saying
Speaker:to Santiago today and anyone that would listen to me that I am incredibly impressed with not
Speaker:just their fortitude. and commitment to the cause, because these aren't your usual suspects,
Speaker:right? But their skills in repelling police attacks, they have practiced. They know how
Speaker:to line up, they know how to grab one another so that they can't be grabbed. They know what
Speaker:to do when someone does get grabbed by the police. They are bringing umbrellas and shields. They're
Speaker:building barricades. I get tingles. talking about it, anybody building a barricade, it's
Speaker:got great vibes for me, honestly. I'm sorry. I'm excited. But on the flip side, you have
Speaker:to make sure people are prepared for this. And if you're talking about economic blockades,
Speaker:you can guarantee that means some of your members and your comrades that you're organizing along
Speaker:with will get hauled off by police or in a confrontation of some sort. Are you doing stuff as organizations,
Speaker:as organizers, to prepare your people for this? I think a lot of this is actually being recycled
Speaker:from BLM, where we're seeing the guides they made and how they repel police, how they protect
Speaker:each other. And we even saw it kind of being used yesterday when they de-arrested somebody.
Speaker:I can't remember what university it was, but they were able to do that. And. And now we're
Speaker:receiving these PDF guides left and right, as well as like Instagram sort of slides to tell
Speaker:you, here's how you protect yourself. Here's how you protect yourself from batons. Um, here's
Speaker:how to protect yourself from, um, sorry, the smoke. I forget what it's called. Um, yeah,
Speaker:it's your cats. And here's how you hold a line when you're pushing and here's how you hold
Speaker:a line when you're being pushed, which is crazy. But I think, like, I'm honestly, I'm really
Speaker:excited as well. I'm hoping people learn these things. Our writing specifically is the only
Speaker:thing right now that we're working on to prepare for that is this sort of the Police It Out
Speaker:Your Friends social media campaign. And I think some bigger groups will be interested in seeing
Speaker:that. And a lot of our content is actually inspired and based off of a New York group. But I think,
Speaker:Batul, can I throw this to you? Because I know U of A kind of did something the other day.
Speaker:Yes, so the University of Alberta, SJP, organized a 12 hour sit-in or encampment on the University
Speaker:of Alberta campus. From what I saw, there wasn't, you know, admin retaliation. They, we would
Speaker:love to see that blossom into something more longstanding, but we are worried about resources
Speaker:and support and sustaining a type of action like that. So A lot of the work that we've
Speaker:been doing in Edmonton over the past six months has been about building capacity to take on
Speaker:more actions like that. It just depends on resources and judging what the response will be and what
Speaker:the risk will be. I think we don't really have a great frame of reference for what risk or
Speaker:response will happen for certain actions. And so it just makes it a little bit hard to...
Speaker:plan. I think it was impressive like how fast U of A was able to pull something together.
Speaker:And I know they don't have the people or the resources the way that Ontario groups have,
Speaker:but I just I thought it was really great that they were able to do like days ago, a 12 hour
Speaker:sit in because they probably like they probably just like couldn't sit there and watch everything
Speaker:happen and not do anything about it. It went into place so quickly. And I think it was the
Speaker:first North like first Canadian. university to kind of respond to these encampments happening
Speaker:on American university campuses. And so it's bringing us into that conversation and into
Speaker:that path and I hope to see more universities in Canada taking on that approach because we
Speaker:have seen a lot of other campuses protesting and advocating for Palestine and for divestment
Speaker:for their universities. And similar to the American campuses, you know, there's been very poor
Speaker:responses. You know, always the scapegoat of anti-Semitism, always the scapegoat of addressing
Speaker:Islamophobia, but not actually addressing Palestine, anti-Palestinian racism, and not actually addressing
Speaker:the economic ties between universities, and Israeli occupation, apartheid, and genocide.
Speaker:And so, SJP has been... the University of Alberta SJP has been engaged in making those demands
Speaker:and asking those questions for a really long time and it was really amazing to see them
Speaker:escalate that to that sit-in and that occupation and I'm hoping that the university admin and
Speaker:the university community at large takes that seriously. Well, that's another economic pressure
Speaker:point that we didn't bring up, but that I imagine the university groups are still engaged in
Speaker:and have been since I was there, is the divestment from specifically Israeli arms manufacturers
Speaker:and the tech that goes with it. A lot of movements started just simply as a divestment from weapons
Speaker:manufacturers, although it had the intention of stopping the Zionist supply. It was easier
Speaker:to be couched in a more general divest from weapons because universities shouldn't be investing
Speaker:in weapons. But as we can see, with the facade of Zionism falling, now it's become a lot more
Speaker:explicit in the demands that we are in fact targeting Israel and their supply. We had one
Speaker:anecdote story where we were doing a march in our downtown Oakville. And we were talking
Speaker:about the fact that we were going to be doing a march in our downtown A member of our group
Speaker:is a firefighter, and he's had very positive interactions with the police through his work,
Speaker:because they work very closely together. He's a white male. So, you know, we're doing this
Speaker:march, and even though he's someone who's pro-Palestine, he's buddying up with the cops. He's saying,
Speaker:hey, how are you, Joe? And he's, you know, trying to tell them our protest route. And we kind
Speaker:of had to pull him aside and say, hey, even though you've had this interaction with law
Speaker:enforcement, not everyone in our group is protected and feels safe. communicating this with the
Speaker:authorities. So that was kind of a tough conversation to have. And in terms of how we've kept each
Speaker:other safe within our organization, we've arranged for martial training. We had a pretty big webinar
Speaker:with a lot of members of our group with someone who's an experienced police liaison. And we
Speaker:always do have a police liaison on site to talk to the cops, to keep everyone safe. So that's
Speaker:just some mitigations we've done on our end to prevent police violence against our members.
Speaker:And it's been pretty effective thus far. I see I saw you grab your head with the thought of
Speaker:one of the attendees sharing the route with cops like, no, what are you doing? Oh my god,
Speaker:I've seen this happen and I've seen like organizers shake hand with cops that have taken down friends
Speaker:of Vine and arrested them. And I just had to walk away because I was like, this is not going
Speaker:to look good for Eglinton Lawrence if I do something right now. But I know it's like, that's all,
Speaker:that's just kind of one way through my head. Asya, you said something that I didn't want
Speaker:to make, you know, my group look bad. And Oakville, you talked about, you know, protecting the
Speaker:brand. And we kind of understand, I think the people listening, you know, you want donations,
Speaker:you want to bring people in, you don't want to scare people off. There is a balance between.
Speaker:In doing that, but one thing that I get concerned about, because like I like. red flags go off
Speaker:when I hear this discussion happening is... who gives a shit? I mean, you have no idea
Speaker:what will actually inspire people and draw them to you for one. Right. Look at politics. We'll
Speaker:confirm that for you. Like the dry ones don't inspire anybody. And the only people fighting
Speaker:right now is they've got all our attention. Sarah Jama. And please, like, there's also
Speaker:a real danger holding anything back within your movement. And I know that sounds scary. Like
Speaker:you don't want people storming the city hall. You're not ready for it. You didn't prepare
Speaker:for it. Yes, they might be unsafe, but they're adults or they're you. They're where they need
Speaker:to be mentally and preparedly. You have to let it go sometimes too. And because that was the
Speaker:beauty of our conversation with the Anarchist Collective is like every single individual
Speaker:person's desires and needs have to be met in a certain way. And harmony isn't created by
Speaker:uniformity, right? Like, and I guess your subgroups will allow you to do that with a little more
Speaker:distance. You can always create subgroups that like have no branding at all, right? Like they
Speaker:are not affiliated whatsoever. And that can be an outlet for activities that are times
Speaker:hard sells in the larger group. But holding it back at this point is not an option. People
Speaker:are really angry. I kind of want to tell the story then from that interview real quick.
Speaker:And we'll probably won't include this because the audience already heard it, but they were
Speaker:mentioning about how they were organizing in a small town. It was like Occupy era and there
Speaker:was a group of individuals in their organization who wanted to do an occupation of the main
Speaker:town square and how a lot of people, they weren't ready for that. They were like a little bit
Speaker:scared about. doing that they had concerns, but in the end the chair told them, okay, everyone
Speaker:who's interested in going to do this, go over here, go talk about this, go plan this, and
Speaker:you know, let's talk logistics here, right? Initially it was only like your usual folks,
Speaker:like the ones who are ready to, or you know, your balaclava anarchists, you know, who are
Speaker:ready to go. But as they like planned this and organized it, it ended up being that the entire
Speaker:organization came together and ended up supporting it and ended up being a successful occupation.
Speaker:And it was one of those things where it's like, not everyone was ready for that, but by allowing
Speaker:space for something like that to happen, it went down. And I feel like our groups are often
Speaker:held back by not. by not being ready. We think we're not ready, but the part of the story,
Speaker:I feel you kind of left out there, the detail was the people that were ready or thought they
Speaker:were ready to occupy a space just did it. And they did it okay overnight, but their comrades
Speaker:wouldn't let them do it alone, right? They demonstrated it could have been done. And so, you kind of
Speaker:had to eat your pie and be like, okay, I was wrong. It was possible. But also like you just...
Speaker:It was natural, right? Once your comrades were in there doing it, then it became, okay, we're
Speaker:doing it. They've pulled us along. So sometimes those fringe people that scare us or those
Speaker:actions that seem ridiculous are actually the ones that pull the movement along. And a movement
Speaker:like this just can't stall. Right? Like that is just not an option. And you can't have people
Speaker:thinking that they don't have an outlet, like just in general, not even within the Palestinian
Speaker:solidarity movement, just like if we're talking about bringing everybody into it. It's those
Speaker:right wingers that are given outlets, right? Like and targets and escalating options that
Speaker:are coalescing around something, something fucking ridiculous. But they're coalescing, right?
Speaker:And they're getting their anger out. And, you know. You don't want to learn much from them,
Speaker:but that is a lesson. I think there's a lot of truth to what you both said and, you know,
Speaker:the story that you provided. I think we don't want to be like a corporation that's wagging
Speaker:our finger in their faces and giving them a cease and desist for using our logo or anything
Speaker:like that. But I do believe at its core, we need to always center Palestinian messaging
Speaker:with the people as with the people who are in the diaspora here need and want from us to
Speaker:be saying and iterating. I do think that, you know, sometimes it's. If you're part of activism,
Speaker:it's okay to also take a step back if you know that you do not have the strongest messaging
Speaker:to provide, that you're not fully in the know of what to say. I think of two instances, I
Speaker:went to a rally a couple of weeks ago at Pierre Poliev's, I think it was some kind of Nathan
Speaker:Phillips Square Israel party. Like a bring them home rally. Yes, the bring them home rally.
Speaker:And there was a speaker there who is not Palestinian and I was not very familiar with. who said
Speaker:some anti-Semitic messaging that I would actually deem to be anti-Semitic and not just legitimate
Speaker:criticism of Israel. And I saw a lot of Palestinians who are in the GTA were very infuriated by
Speaker:that because it's very easy for Zionists to then misalign the entire movement when they
Speaker:latch onto these examples. And the other day I was at a rally and someone asked to borrow
Speaker:my megaphone. And the first question I asked is, what are you planning on saying? And of
Speaker:course it was something extremely egregious and ridiculous. I mean, I think it's important
Speaker:to not gatekeep to the point where nothing is getting done and we're just being control freaks
Speaker:and we're being like Starbucks suing their union over using their name versus, you know, controlling
Speaker:our messaging, making sure that we're organized and steadfast in what we want to achieve. I
Speaker:just want to clear up that when I said I need to take a step back, it's because I was very
Speaker:angry in the moment.
Speaker:group that we have. So we know if anybody does something, we're going to back them up. We
Speaker:know who this group is. However, I knew that if I did something, if I got angry and I said
Speaker:the wrong things, it was going to create problems for no reason. It's a lot better to go talk
Speaker:to this organizer afterwards, which is what I often do. Or I talk to somebody who is kind
Speaker:of a bit higher up or does the organizing for the marshalling or things like that. So it's
Speaker:not that we're being held back, because I think ELDB actually has gotten in a lot of trouble
Speaker:these last few months for our Farhan Ali post, which by the way, that was about half of the
Speaker:tea that we had on this guy. What are you doing with the other half? We are protecting the
Speaker:people whose stories they belong to. Your TikTok, that- Yeah, I promise you we're- We're not
Speaker:holding back. However, Oakville is right. We've seen in this movement that sometimes drama
Speaker:totally takes the message away from what's actually happening. And this could actually cause problems
Speaker:between organizers because this is really like mentally, emotionally, and physically tiring
Speaker:when you have people who are supposed to be working with you, questioning you left and
Speaker:right. It's like it's OK to sometimes protect the peace. Um, but I wasn't really scared of
Speaker:anything. I think because I did take that to somebody and there was a problem and part of
Speaker:that problem was taken care of. So it is okay to kind of wait a bit sometimes. Um, yeah,
Speaker:I think, yeah, honestly, Oakville said it best a lot, a lot of the, like, I don't know what
Speaker:kind of statement Cija sends to all the politicians to talk about Mount Sinai. But basically, same
Speaker:thing, like bullshit unrelated to Palestine, big thing that the news can kind of grab and
Speaker:use. These kinds of things, just like the guy from that Nathan Phillips square, what he did
Speaker:takes away from it. And it's really important to protect the messaging. Absolutely. But when
Speaker:you bring up Mount Sinai, I think it's... It's just an example of no matter what you do, there
Speaker:will be drama created and slander leveled your way and claims of antisemitism all the time.
Speaker:That's not to say that like you don't let people on the mic that are gonna be spouting actual
Speaker:antisemitic shit, because you just don't let that go down in any of our spaces, not because
Speaker:it makes the movement look bad, right? Or not because it creates tension. But yeah, no. My
Speaker:point to you was not so much like not to start conflict within your movement, but just always
Speaker:having to... and it's not of your creating, it's of the media and the atmosphere that we're
Speaker:in where folks have to second guess their tactics, not based on how impactful it might be or whether
Speaker:they're resource ready, but then they also have to consider what will that make us look like?
Speaker:What will they say about this location that we've picked outside of a synagogue? or what
Speaker:buildings are you climbing on, Spider-Man? Will you be photographed from an angle that makes
Speaker:it look ridiculous? Because that's a lot of overthinking that folks that you're describing,
Speaker:time, energy, and emotional toll, shouldn't have to be doing. And that's frustrating. It's
Speaker:a necessity and it's things you might wanna consider, but it shouldn't be necessary. Especially
Speaker:when we're talking from a Palestinian resistance movement that's an armed resistance as well.
Speaker:when we're talking about messaging completely, it should be led by Palestinian voices. But
Speaker:I don't know if there's tactics there that are off the table in terms of ending an occupation,
Speaker:as in being like any kind of disrespect to the Palestinians themselves, you know what I'm
Speaker:saying? So, yeah, but is there anything else that you folks had prepared in your notes there
Speaker:that you wanted to say, maybe a story? Oh. we gotta go back, circle back to the youth. Okay,
Speaker:Michelle, I'll go, I'm gonna throw to you in a second here. So we had Eglinton Lawrence,
Speaker:Don Valley on a few months back. I have no sense of time anymore. And it was a room of young
Speaker:faces. I didn't ask anybody their age, but you know, it was refreshing. And just this last
Speaker:weekend.
Speaker:I was able to take my dad downtown to the action outside a union station. And although we didn't
Speaker:make it in time to see the different delegations group up with one another, I really wanted
Speaker:to take him down to see you folks. And I knew we weren't gonna make it, so the whole subway
Speaker:ride down, I talked about you.
Speaker:His time here is limited, and he's always been an advocate for Palestine and against apartheid.
Speaker:From when I was a young girl, I understood South African apartheid because of him. And I didn't
Speaker:know what it would be like. for him not to know where the movement would be going.
Speaker:And I needed to show him the youth. I was bragging about your signs with the watermelon look.
Speaker:It's like they're branded. The people can find them. They can see like I'm in Toronto, Pike
Speaker:Park. Oh my God, and wander over there and meet one another. And they were holding a delegation
Speaker:meeting ahead of time so people could like meet people from their neighbourhood, like the most
Speaker:organic way of organizing. It's like textbook what you folks are doing. It's like all the
Speaker:things we've talked about.
Speaker:It's so promising to see it led by such young people with such a huge understanding that
Speaker:like folks my age right now took so much longer to come around to and like, you know, you walk
Speaker:on the work that came before you, right, but I feel like you youth are now at this point
Speaker:where you're fucking ready. And watching those university students fight with police. And
Speaker:and just seeing politicians just like give up the facade. It's not a desperate moment, you
Speaker:know what I mean? It was a very promising moment. And then, and I want to thank you folks for
Speaker:just being that demonstration that I could show my dad that, like there is a torch that is
Speaker:being carried on, like, and it is, it is big, you know, and they're bringing a lot of people
Speaker:along with them. So do you guys want to talk about the fact that most of the youth, most
Speaker:of the groups seem to be led or spearheaded by people that are quite young, at least compared
Speaker:to me. Actually, I want to talk about something you said first, and then everybody else can
Speaker:talk about the youth. But that's funny, because like, when I go to demonstrations, or direct
Speaker:actions that are pretty risky, I always think it's really cool. And I want to talk to the
Speaker:people who are in their 70s and 80s who are there, because I'm like, Oh, my God, like you
Speaker:lived 78 years of your life, and you still have like hope. And it must be so amazing to see
Speaker:what it's like seven years ago versus today. I mean, they saw like actual change. So I actually
Speaker:think it's really nice because I'm like, I hope I hope I still have that kind of life in me
Speaker:in like 40 years. If we're still around. But yeah, I think you said that to me, Asya, when
Speaker:we first met on one of these kind of calls. So, you know, I don't know if I I'm not 70
Speaker:yet. You know, I'm getting there. But I want to pick up on it because I actually really,
Speaker:I really appreciate you sharing your story, Jess, but also Asya's point, right? There is
Speaker:this something right now in the movement that is so inspiring and important, I think, because
Speaker:it's multi-generational, genuinely multi-generational. And when you go in the neighborhoods, the neighborhood
Speaker:groups are multi-generational and they're also youth-led. And the youth are doing all the
Speaker:things, right? The youth are very organized and working very, very hard. And I keep going
Speaker:to meetings and I am the oldest person in the room by double. And I'm talking to people who
Speaker:are so brilliant and just have so much knowledge and so much spirit and energy, but also like
Speaker:organizing skills. And so there is this like very strong youth movement which I think is
Speaker:so strong because the people are great. but also and also because they're building on the
Speaker:movement that came before, right? Because there have been generations of this. And whereas
Speaker:maybe our generations weren't as organized or weren't as mobilized or weren't able to do
Speaker:all of the things, all those things that we and the people before us did laid a groundwork
Speaker:for these brilliant young people to come in and just run, right? And to be able to move
Speaker:very quickly and to put it together. in really, really intelligent ways. So it's both, right?
Speaker:And it's working in a lot of these spaces and I see it a lot in the neighborhoods because
Speaker:the neighborhoods are, they're very youth energized and they're very youth organized and there
Speaker:are lots of older people plugging in as well. That's definitely true in our context and it's
Speaker:true in the nationwide as well. So I think that it's something that's very, important and empowering
Speaker:about the neighbourhood organizing. And we've talked a lot about it in our group, but also
Speaker:in Montreal groups in general and in just other groups when we meet. And the watermelon signs
Speaker:is how I met my first folks from Toronto in Ottawa. because we had our neighborhood banner
Speaker:and they had their neighborhood watermelon sign. And we went up and we're like, we're a neighborhood
Speaker:group from Montreal. And they said, we're the neighborhood group from Toronto. And then we
Speaker:met and then we connected afterwards online. And right, so like it's working right here.
Speaker:So I find that one of the most important things to kind of keep coming back to. Anybody else?
Speaker:No, yeah. I was just gonna add, personally, I'm 23 and I'm one of the admins and leaders
Speaker:of Oakville for Palestine. So a lot of our group is very young, you know, we're mid to late
Speaker:20s. And I think a lot of what has disrupted decades of Zionist indoctrination has been
Speaker:the power of social media. You know, so many of our boomer relatives that were always saying,
Speaker:oh, you're on your phones all the time. Just connect from technology with there's definitely
Speaker:some truth to that. But also, we're now seeing technology being used in a way that's disseminating
Speaker:information that's disrupting the mainstream narratives. that have been built and crafted
Speaker:and billions of dollars have been funneled into them. People are now going on Instagram and
Speaker:seeing someone in Gaza saying, hey, here's my kitchen where I used to eat breakfast every
Speaker:morning. This is what's happened to it. And people are now starting to have the wheels
Speaker:turn and having those narratives disrupted that they've been fed for so long. So I think a
Speaker:lot of it is the power of independent journalism, the power of social media getting the messaging
Speaker:out there. and the power of how we've been able to also leverage it for our organizing through
Speaker:educational materials, through actions. Very recently, we had a Zionist in our community
Speaker:in Oakville. He went to a secondary school of a Catholic school here in Oakville, and he
Speaker:distributed his book called Israel Repairing the World to all of the students. So when we,
Speaker:sorry, go ahead. All of them? Like the school let him? to all of the students who are in
Speaker:this grade seven history class. So when we heard about that, we said we need to take some kind
Speaker:of action because the same indoctrination tactics are now being used and we have concrete evidence
Speaker:of it. So you know we took some photos of the book, we uploaded it to social media, and within
Speaker:days we got thousands of people who were able to use our action network and send letters
Speaker:to the Catholic school board, to the school administrators, and now we're finally getting
Speaker:some responses. we're working on getting a Palestinian educator and historian to come and speak to
Speaker:the class. So, you know, it's all about how we've been able to use the age of technology
Speaker:that we're in and how we've been able to get Palestinian voices to be centered rather than,
Speaker:you know, what's been sold to the public for so, so long. That's horrifying to think, like,
Speaker:how many times that might happen and folks don't get a hold of it. Can I add something? Always.
Speaker:So I think it has like what Oakville mentioned. It makes sense why the US is working on banning
Speaker:TikTok. We'll see where that goes. They're not gonna disappear. They're just gonna find a
Speaker:new app. Like they're just gonna have to get used to it. But the other thing, I know you
Speaker:keep wanting to talk about you, so I'm sorry. I keep wanting to not talk about you. No, let's
Speaker:move on. Don't worry. That's good. It's good to, it's good to. I feel like I always, always
Speaker:have to mention this. like the ideologies and opinions that I have are 100% because of my
Speaker:grandparents, my mom. That's because my grandfather fought in our independence war in Algeria,
Speaker:and he was captured and released, and he didn't snitch or anything. Obviously, that history
Speaker:was passed down to my mother, and my mom passed that on to me. As much as I would love to say
Speaker:that the youth are discovering everything, I think a lot of our history when it's taught
Speaker:to us really, really is the reason that a lot of people today understand what's going on.
Speaker:That's why you have a lot of African, Southwest Asian kids who already are like, yeah, I mean,
Speaker:I'm Tamil. This happened to our people. I can connect it to here. I'm Kashmiri. I'm Congolese,
Speaker:I'm Sudanese. Just everybody who's been colonized at some point can, not always, clearly for
Speaker:some politicians here, I don't know why Rishi Sunak is the guy that came up in my head, but
Speaker:clearly people like that are not always going to learn. They're not always going to make
Speaker:that connection. But I think it's really important that even though some previous generations
Speaker:were not able to take it to the goal, they... They basically passed on the goal and made
Speaker:sure that we could do something to help keep pushing for the liberation of all these places
Speaker:that are colonized. And yeah, anyways, that's yeah, I just wanted to throw that in because
Speaker:I think that's like I think that's so important. Also, it's very cool that a lot of the kids
Speaker:in the Ivy Leagues are just like, like seriously rich kids. who probably have some friends that
Speaker:are connected to this whole issue. They talked at some points and are now doing something
Speaker:about it. Okbel, I see your hand up. Let's think of kind of like final thoughts, whether it's
Speaker:like from your neck of the woods or whatnot. And then yeah, we'll make sure we hit everybody
Speaker:on the way out. Sorry, I just want to add, like when I was growing up in America, I was taught
Speaker:in school that Palestinians celebrated after 9-11. We were given so much anti-Palestinian
Speaker:racist material, and I was being the only Arab, the only Muslim kid in class, I was the only
Speaker:one to kind of stick my hand up and say, hey, something's off about this, teacher. Can you
Speaker:work with me on this? I was like 16 years old. So, and I'm seeing a lot of my friends who
Speaker:were in the same classrooms who were fed the same indoctrination materials, posting online
Speaker:about Palestine and joining these encampments in the US. So it's really heartening to see,
Speaker:you know. You have to remember these people are also unlearning so much propaganda that's
Speaker:pushed in the United States and it's codified in the United States education system in order
Speaker:to enable Zionist interests and keep the welfare state of Israel funded and supported for generations.
Speaker:But in terms of final thoughts, we're just keep I want everyone to remember that even though
Speaker:we are youth led movement. I think a lot of people always push for oh, we need to disrupt
Speaker:Trudeau, we need to focus on these very high level politicians. But a lot of the important
Speaker:organizing work happens at the local level, and it gets lost in translation. That's how
Speaker:we end up having very toxic, very harmful local politicians, because people are not coming
Speaker:out for the elections, they're not participating in who is actually in their writing. So I think
Speaker:my main message would just be for all of the youth to not only be energized and activated
Speaker:for, you know, our- big dog politicians and the decision makers in terms of foreign policy
Speaker:and what's impacting people in Gaza because we need to also focus on local level organizing
Speaker:and ensuring that we're putting the pressure where it counts in our own communities. It's
Speaker:really great that you bring it up like that, Oakville, I love it. Like this idea of us working
Speaker:more in our communities. Like I said, kind of this, what I opened with is like, I was really
Speaker:skeptical of organizing around a federal riding and I wasn't very excited to think about. pressuring
Speaker:a local politician who I knew was a Zionist, it just didn't really interest me. But the
Speaker:more I got working in my neighborhood group, the more I realized, you know, it's about that,
Speaker:but it's also not about that, right? It's about building our power in our neighborhood. It's
Speaker:about meeting our neighbors. It's about bringing everyone together. And if I can circle it back
Speaker:also to both of your points, Oakville and Asia, you know, it's about working young people and
Speaker:old people and middle people. And all of us together, coming together and using our different,
Speaker:those of us who have the intergenerational knowledge, just to bring our intergenerational knowledge
Speaker:to the table, bringing Algeria to the table, bringing all of these different kinds of experiences
Speaker:and knowledges and backgrounds that we have to fight for the, in this case, the liberation
Speaker:of Palestine. And the liberation of Palestine, it's linked to the liberation of all of us,
Speaker:right? It's to all of us living in a better world. it being free from occupation and colonialism.
Speaker:So if we think about it in those terms, all of that together is kind of what the neighborhood
Speaker:groups are doing. That's like, you know, very big picture, but it's really about that, like
Speaker:everyday local, small steps with it. So I appreciate that a lot, yeah. I feel like I'm a terrible
Speaker:one to close off with because I just wanted to bring in Brampton. I was really excited
Speaker:about their group because there are... Like some of the people leading that group, it's
Speaker:just a couple of people, they're literally straight out of high school, maybe first year university.
Speaker:And they literally went in front of city council yesterday to, they all wore their kofi'as and
Speaker:they presented about how even though some of their MPs were responsive, most were not and
Speaker:that the city actually has a responsibility to do something about this because Brampton
Speaker:has companies that send parts that are eventually used to kill people in Raza. And it was, they
Speaker:did, they, they did a really good job. I, I just want to make sure that they hold those
Speaker:city counselors accountable. because they were very open to what they brought to the table.
Speaker:They were very responsive. The mayor even was like, welcome. You guys can be in here with
Speaker:your kofias, why not? Queens Park. So they kind of made a dig, but at the same time, I'm waiting
Speaker:for the results. But I know that the Brampton kids have a lot of energy. So I'm actually
Speaker:pretty excited about them, especially since Brampton was like one of the first cities to
Speaker:recognize. to call for a ceasefire like way back. So the only other thing I wanted to say
Speaker:is, even if these writings are not gonna be the solution, I think making little groups
Speaker:is so great because it's just like anything else. It's networking, you don't all have to
Speaker:do the same thing. Everybody has their own little goals. Our goal is to bother Marco and make
Speaker:sure that nobody takes him seriously. Other people's goals are to actually... For example,
Speaker:I think Davenport got their MP to call for an arms embargo like a month ago. So, I think
Speaker:we all have different goals. However, when we talk to each other, everybody can trade their
Speaker:skills and their information. And this helped Eglinton Lawrence a lot. Like the only reason
Speaker:we're here is because we learned from other people. So, I hope that groups keep growing.
Speaker:I hope everybody shares the land back. goal for everybody, especially since Indigenous
Speaker:people here have actually been at the front lines of the pro-Palestinian movement. Yeah,
Speaker:somebody else should wrap up. I for real just had little thoughts that I wanted to throw
Speaker:in. That's okay. I think as a collective there, the last three comments really did, I feel
Speaker:like you guys summarized the interview back up for the audience. And so I'll just leave
Speaker:it with a huge thank you. to the folks here in the studio, as well as all of your comrades
Speaker:that helped get the work done. I know there was a bunch of people that could not make the
Speaker:time slot for today, and that just means I'll have to haul a whole bunch of you back in here
Speaker:a couple months from now or whatever to talk about your latest shenanigans and the fight
Speaker:for a free Palestine on the local level. So thank you very much for taking the time to
Speaker:come in here and keep disrupting. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption.
Speaker:Thank you for joining us. Also a very big thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Halu-Quintero.
Speaker:Blueprints of Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively. You can follow us on
Speaker:Twitter at BPofDisruption. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the status quo,
Speaker:please share our content. And if you have the means, consider becoming a patron. Not only
Speaker:does our support come from the progressive community, so does our content. So reach out to us and
Speaker:let us know what or who we should be amplifying. So until next time, keep disrupting.
