Courage Needed: Advocating for Palestine
In our interview with Ghada Sasa of McMaster University it becomes clear that advocating for a Free Palestine requires nothing short of courage. Whether that is the diaspora forced to live abroad or the many fighting the occupation on the ground.
Ghada is pursuing her PhD on Israel's use of colonial greenwashing to erase Palestinian land. She is a long time advocate in her community and has experienced her fair share of push back, but also victories. Her focus right now is on the case of Ahmad Manasra, a political prisoner held in solidarity confinement for over 700 days in an Israeli jail.
Lobbying for change in a foreign government such as Israel, while living in Canada, means at some point you're going to need to appeal to politicians. What does an ally for Palestine look like in the partisan world of politics?
Academic Institutions and the racism built into them also prove to be combative spaces to speak up on Palestine. Hear what that's like and how Ghada found supports in the community.
Its also a discussion about allyship and the personal impact of doing this work.
All of our content is free - made possible by the generous sponsorships of our Patrons. If you would like to support us: Patreon
Resources:
Transcript
Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints
Speaker:of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining
Speaker:power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,
Speaker:we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle
Speaker:capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know
Speaker:we need. Welcome. Gada, introduce yourself to the audience, please. Hi, and thank you for
Speaker:having me. My name is Gada Sasa. In Arabic, that's Radha Sasa. I am a third generation
Speaker:Palestinian refugee. My mom is from a village near Nablus called Madama. And my father is
Speaker:from the city of Ramle, which is now part of what's considered Israel, but we refer to as
Speaker:1948 Palestine. And I'm a PhD candidate in international relations at McMaster University, where I write
Speaker:about Israeli green colonialism and I'm working on finishing my degree. Well, you can't go
Speaker:and drop a term like that and not explain a little bit more. What is Israeli green colonialism?
Speaker:Sure. So I look at how Israel weaponizes environmentalism or uses environmental policies like national
Speaker:parks and nature reserves to colonize Palestinian land.
Speaker:American Independence Park, which Israel has established over several Palestinian villages
Speaker:with the aid of American taxpayer money and the work of the Jewish National Fund, a registered
Speaker:charity in Canada and many other countries in the world, even though this is primarily a
Speaker:colonial and racist institution. And so yeah, I look at how Israel planted pine trees over
Speaker:destroyed Palestinian villages, literally to cover up the rubble, to Europeanize the land
Speaker:while they... They're planting these invasive pines all at the same time, deforesting the
Speaker:native flora, like the olive trees. And then, of course, it's part of this broader agenda
Speaker:to kind of greenwash their occupation, to talk about how they're making the desert bloom.
Speaker:And as if nobody lived in Palestine before, or as if Palestinians neglected their land.
Speaker:And yeah, it's used as a way for it to greenwash its regime of apartheid and ethnic cleansing.
Speaker:And at the same time, it also greenwashes its crimes, not only against the Palestinian people,
Speaker:but also the environment, right? So what I do is kind of like locate Israel's actions within
Speaker:a broader history. So I look at how international parks, for example, were invented by the United
Speaker:States, right? And I look at how Western environmentalism puts this separation between nature and humans
Speaker:that doesn't really exist. and it advocates for the exclusion of people, especially women,
Speaker:people of color, and poor people from nature, so-called nature in order to protect it. And
Speaker:so nature is used as a tool to justify many human rights violations. And so I actually
Speaker:look at Palestinian environmentalism and other forms of environmentalism as examples of how
Speaker:we can challenge the human nature binary in order to ensure that we're protecting human
Speaker:rights as well as the environment. Yeah, so I guess that's a summary of my research. That's
Speaker:fascinating. And it's not even why we called you in here to have a discussion. I feel like
Speaker:maybe we should have that that's an episode in itself. Because we see greenwashing used
Speaker:as a tool for many, many things. Didn't realize apartheid was one of them. But, you know, that's
Speaker:why we're always learning. I actually called you in here because of the massive amount of
Speaker:work that you are doing surrounding political prisoners, Palestinian political prisoners
Speaker:in Israeli jails. Sorry.
Speaker:And even though the audience will understand my disdain for electoral politics, and we'll
Speaker:get into the possibilities in a little bit, but you do a lot of your work in and around
Speaker:Parliament Hill. I mean, you might not always physically be there, but your targets and appeals,
Speaker:literally some of your words have been to the elected. And I kind of wanted to get into that
Speaker:with you on how effective you feel that is, but also the different ways in which you need
Speaker:to engage with these people. Because we typically talk about engaging in your immediate community,
Speaker:not necessarily with the powerful. And although I don't wanna do that work, I understand it
Speaker:needs to be done. So let's give people an idea of what it's like. to advocate for Palestine
Speaker:on Parliament Hill?
Speaker:Yeah, sure. Thank you. So basically I have been following the case of Ahmed Manasra, who is
Speaker:a Palestinian, who's been imprisoned by Israel since he was 13 years old and tortured by them.
Speaker:So essentially he was arrested at first, accused of stabbing Israeli settlers. settlers, him
Speaker:and his cousin, Hassan. Hassan was immediately killed at the scene and Ahmad was run over
Speaker:by a car, a settler car. And there was like a horrible image, that video that emerged at
Speaker:the time, it went viral of Ahmad, you know, essentially, you know, bleeding to death and
Speaker:settlers just cursing at him. And then he was hospitalized. At the time, actually, I think
Speaker:it was falsely announced that Ahmad had died and I just... couldn't believe it. Like I just
Speaker:thought, wow, I just saw someone like die. Like, and then basically we found out actually he
Speaker:survived, but, you know, you saw him handcuffed in the hospital and then he was brutally interrogated.
Speaker:There was a video that leaked, I guess, of Israeli interrogating him without his parents or lawyers.
Speaker:Ahmed kept saying, I can't remember. He obviously had a brain injury and, From what I understand,
Speaker:he was also possibly on sedatives, so there's a lot of illegalities going on. Despite all
Speaker:this, the Israeli court's actually cleared that he was innocent, but since he was 13, he's
Speaker:been in prison, and he's just turned 21 at the beginning of this year in January. And not
Speaker:only is he in prison, but since November 2021, Israel held him under solitary confinement.
Speaker:And so his trial was actually supposed to take place last Wednesday, but Ahmed was too sick
Speaker:to attend. He was hospitalized. And so Israel delayed his trial date, but they also renewed
Speaker:his solitary confinement for another six months. So Ahmed's health physically and mentally is
Speaker:deteriorating because obviously like he, it is kind of torture, right? According to international
Speaker:law, more than 15 days of solitary confinement. prohibited and cruel torture. And at this point
Speaker:they've kept him for almost two years now and it's going to be more than that. So he has,
Speaker:you know, been diagnosed with schizophrenia, severe depression and yeah, so basically his
Speaker:life is on the line, right? He is suicidal right now and I guess, yeah, it's, for a long time
Speaker:I have been, you know, engaged with pro-Palestine work. because I guess I mostly grew up in so-called
Speaker:Canada, but I am Palestinian, I have my family back home right under occupation, it's my responsibility
Speaker:I feel to act and defend. And I speak out not just for the Palestinian community, I speak
Speaker:out for LGBT rights, I speak out for like... women's rights, I advocate in general against
Speaker:injustice, even when that's calling out my own community. And basically, for a while, I felt
Speaker:like I had to take a bit of a break from my activism. But in December of last year, when
Speaker:I heard that it's renewed Ahmad Salah, you can find me, I just thought I kind of had to drop
Speaker:everything and just do something for this man, this boy. And I just, I don't know why I had
Speaker:this idea that in January... I just thought I would love to do something on his birthday.
Speaker:And it just so happened and when I looked it up, it was in January. And it fell on a Sunday.
Speaker:So everything kind of fell in line. And I am a believer, so I do feel like sometimes, I
Speaker:know God just makes things really easy. And so I thought, okay, maybe this is an interesting
Speaker:idea. So we did a birthday protest and it was outside of the Israeli consulate in Toronto.
Speaker:It was a snowy day, but we had balloons, gifts, and it was really beautiful. We blocked the
Speaker:intersection and... and we had a protest there, we gave some speeches. And yeah, I guess like,
Speaker:what I thought was maybe like an interesting or strange idea actually took up because like
Speaker:all the major Palestine and like human rights organizations, even Amnesty International,
Speaker:they were all talking about Ahmad on his birthday and like making their own posts or even I saw
Speaker:there were protests for Ahmad in like, in the U.S. and other places. So yeah, that was really
Speaker:encouraging. So I guess my first instinct was to go to the community to mobilize and you
Speaker:know we got endorsements from Defense Children International Canada and like Amnesty and Independent
Speaker:Jewish Voices and all these groups. And then basically, so yeah nothing was really planned
Speaker:for me to directly engage with government officials because like you I'm actually quite disillusioned
Speaker:with the electoral politics and... the system because, you know, just having studied science
Speaker:and having just, you know, I, for example, a couple of years ago, I was elected as the representative
Speaker:for graduate students on the board of governors at McMaster University, which is the highest
Speaker:decision making body. And I just saw how corrupt it was on the inside and how difficult it is
Speaker:to make change when, you know, there's, you know, one or a few of you fighting for change,
Speaker:but then the rules are changing. And then it's just a very, honestly, it was very traumatic
Speaker:experience being on there when you're constantly lied to and gaslit and just treated poorly,
Speaker:right? So, but actually I noticed Alexandre Boudérice, he's an MP based in Quebec. And
Speaker:he just kept like, he was one of the first people, you know, to like my post about Ahmadzadeh,
Speaker:like, okay, I have to reach out to him, right? So I reached out to him and, you know, I thought
Speaker:maybe let's just do a petition. And sure enough, he agreed. And he read it in Parliament. And,
Speaker:you know, as like, as Palestinians, we're so deeply erased by the Canadian government and
Speaker:just worldwide that for like, you know, sometimes the bare minimum is like huge. So for them
Speaker:to say Ahmed's name in parliament, for them to... Yeah, I thought that was impactful. And
Speaker:obviously the response that we received from the Canadian Foreign Ministry was disgraceful.
Speaker:They didn't even mention Ahmed's name. They just gave this whole usual, oh, Canada supports
Speaker:peace between Israel and Palestine. Always Israel first, right? And like... advocate for Israeli
Speaker:children before Palestinian children, as if Israeli children are the primary victims. So
Speaker:it was just like a terrible statement, not really addressing any of our points. Basically, we
Speaker:were saying, you know, UN human rights experts have demanded Ahmed's immediate release. Same
Speaker:with Amnesty International. Like, we're not asking for the moon here. We're just asking
Speaker:for them to issue a statement, right? I mean, I would hope that Canada opposes the imprisonment.
Speaker:torture of children and prisoners in general. So yeah, I mean, it wasn't altogether surprising.
Speaker:And actually, I decided to do the press conference in parliament when I was being encouraged by
Speaker:politicians who support Palestine to do this. And as far as I'm concerned, it was the first
Speaker:Palestinian press conference in parliament. So again, for me, that was... As far as I know,
Speaker:I haven't seen anything like that. And I've asked- You're not joking when you say, you
Speaker:know, Palestinians and Palestinian voices are erased by the Canadian government. Like I know
Speaker:that there's no official liaison group, right? You folks have had to kind of create their
Speaker:own, nothing government funded in terms of advocating for Palestine. They're not recognized as a
Speaker:state by the Canadian government. And in all these years of Palestine and Israel issues
Speaker:coming up, right? The amount of massive incursions, the rulings on the occupation. This is like
Speaker:the first time they've allowed a Palestinian to speak. Yeah. I don't know. I think I don't
Speaker:think there's so much allowing Palestinians to speak, but I don't know. I feel like there's
Speaker:just been such heavy erasure. And you know, Dr. Mohandad Daesh and you know, he's a Canadian
Speaker:Palestinian professor. He talks about how like Palestinians were so toxified, right? So people
Speaker:are afraid of even talking about Palestine, let alone in a place like the parliament, right?
Speaker:That's like severely like surveilled. So I can understand why people hesitated. But we thought
Speaker:basically it was a Monday and May 15th, it fell on the 75th anniversary of the Nakba. And we
Speaker:also wanted to... The United Nations was recognizing the Nakba for the first time, commemorating
Speaker:it. And so we were calling on Canada to commemorate Nakba Day, but also to speak about Ahmad and
Speaker:urge for his release. So we held his photos and it was really great. We had representatives
Speaker:of several groups speak, including one called Canada Stand Up for Palestinian Children and...
Speaker:This is a Christian group, we had independent Jewish voices there. We had a member of Association
Speaker:of Palestinian Canadians based in Ottawa. And also we had an Aqaba survivor, so that was
Speaker:really powerful. And he spoke about how he was ethnically cleansed in his family, and how
Speaker:his young teacher, like sister, was martyred by the Israeli regime. And their expulsion,
Speaker:so I was there to translate for him from Arabic. That was powerful. Unfortunately, how Palestinians
Speaker:are treated is we didn't get much press coming to document or to ask us questions. And I sent
Speaker:emails to many journalists and many alternative media, mainstream media, news tips. I thought
Speaker:at least, this is like, I was trying to say May 15, Nakba Day, and everything going on
Speaker:globally that maybe it would get the attention, but. still, you know, and we released before
Speaker:that like press advisories in English and French. So that was of course kind of disappointing.
Speaker:The Hill did write a little bit about us, which was nice. The newspaper based in Ottawa. But
Speaker:other than that, honestly, it was again relying on like a lot of the past and Saudi groups
Speaker:locally that kind of shared our videos and got our word out. And then in the evening of May
Speaker:15, actually, there was an event called Palestine on the Hill. And so it was, this event was
Speaker:like 700 people, there were ambassadors and like a lot of MPs. And it was basically, speaking
Speaker:about the Nakba and they had some like cultural exhibits. And so I actually managed to be able
Speaker:to speak on stage. I asked the organizers and I just drew attention to them. Hey, this morning
Speaker:we had a press conference and none of you were there. I'm specifically looking at the MPs,
Speaker:right? The media wasn't there. And it was so nice to like know that they're somewhat there
Speaker:or, you know, being half having to listen to you. But basically... My speech was probably
Speaker:the most well received of the night because it just came from the heart and it was advocated
Speaker:for Palestinian prisoners who I feel are really forgotten. And even though they suffer some
Speaker:of the worst, you know, violence of Israeli settler colonialism, you know, it's one thing
Speaker:to get martyred but to be tortured for years and it's just it's a horrible thing. So, yeah,
Speaker:basically I presented a bit about it and I realized after that while I was speaking, the MPs were
Speaker:basically having a photo shoot on the side and there were photographers on stage almost bumping
Speaker:into me. If you see the videos. Trying to get a better shot of them. Because yeah, I was
Speaker:going to ask you about photo ops and you know, at one point you did name drop Alexandra Bourissier
Speaker:and I've seen you come. and thank him for coming through for Palestine. And I was going to say,
Speaker:you know, is that what does that look like on the Hill? Is that more often than not showing
Speaker:up for a photo op and not making the kind of boulder statements that you need made? I mean,
Speaker:kudos for the petition. We know the NDP is supposed to be shifting their position. there according
Speaker:to what members had passed in their last convention, right? So there should be more room for work
Speaker:there within that party and getting it to the floor. But it seems like that's a bit of a
Speaker:rare commodity in terms of actionable items that politicians do. Right. And so, yeah, picturing
Speaker:you spilling your heart out, especially these personal connections that you're making with
Speaker:this work. right, talking to families and how you must internalize a lot of that, especially
Speaker:as a Palestinian yourself. And then seeing that opportunistic imagery and all that politicking
Speaker:that you have to put up with. But it's tough though, like, especially when we're talking
Speaker:about Palestine, and I'm, you know, kind of criticizing for spending time in parliament,
Speaker:perhaps. It's not a local issue. So although you do. need the community on board. I think
Speaker:we know that most Canadians don't agree with solitary confinement, that they don't agree
Speaker:with the occupation, that they understand that the war crimes have been committed there, are
Speaker:being committed there. It's really the politicians that are lagging in terms of doing something
Speaker:about it. And then you've got that added disadvantage of essentially lobbying a foreign government.
Speaker:Canada can make a statement and that would add political pressure. But in the end, you need
Speaker:Israel to act. And so that is a far way removed. When we talk about the political pressures
Speaker:that we have to put in there to get what we want or what needs to happen, that's a tough
Speaker:job for you folks, especially as the diaspora. So you not only have to deal with the barriers
Speaker:that exist within the Canadian government, right? The Zionist attitudes that exist within the
Speaker:ruling party there. But even that is still far removed from your goal. of direct pressure
Speaker:to Israel to do the right thing. Yeah, exactly. I guess I wanted to go back to the May 15 press
Speaker:conference. Basically, I actually sent an email in advance to a bunch of the MPs who were supposed
Speaker:to be in solidarity with the palace. A lot of them showed up to the event in the evening
Speaker:and all of them told me, oh, like, we're busy. If they respond, a lot of them just didn't
Speaker:even respond. So that was disappointing, you know, and Alexandre Boulneris also couldn't
Speaker:come. And, yeah, of course, I do wish that they do more, you know, and I feel like a lot of
Speaker:excuses are made for politicians. Like, oh, you know, like they're busy or like, you know,
Speaker:like I'm personally, I know I'm so inspired by you, Jess, I know you for so long and I
Speaker:know how you speak truth to power and you, you know, and like I'm, I'm very much like the
Speaker:same. I am there to speak honesty. I'm a principled person. And so it's hard for me to like understand
Speaker:that because like, you know, like people should know that yes, people who speak about Palestine
Speaker:can be demonized. right? But it's like not as bad as what Palestinians are facing. And I
Speaker:think people sometimes don't grasp like, you know, people talk about Palestinians being
Speaker:so brave. Well, there's a reason we're so brave because we're literally facing a genocidal
Speaker:project. All settler colonial regimes, including the Canadian regime, are genocidal. They're
Speaker:based on eliminating all natives, right? And so this is why we feel like we have nothing
Speaker:to lose. Even though I am, you know, living, I'm forced to live. side of Palestine, you
Speaker:know, I was never able to visit even my dad's city of Framle, because I have a Palestinian
Speaker:ID for my mom, so I can't visit, can't live there. But, you know, it's like, I can't escape
Speaker:the trauma of statelessness, my culture being eroded, just, you know, the violence, institutional
Speaker:violence and all the other forms of anti-Palestinian racism, I face all the time here. So I don't
Speaker:know where I'm going with this, but... Sorry, I went out on a rant, you know, I got emotional,
Speaker:I don't know. Well, we met at York University doing Palestinian activism. And I can attest
Speaker:even back then as a student, watching the institutional racism play out on people's lives. And I surely
Speaker:witnessed the demonization of anything Palestinian, quite literally, right? mural with the flag,
Speaker:voices, any actions were always countered, but at the highest level as well. Right? You talk
Speaker:about the Board of Governors at McMaster, you've gone up against the Board of Governors at York.
Speaker:What are those barriers like for you? Because that bravery might be by necessity, but there's
Speaker:a lot to discourage you from doing this work. Right, like there is probably a lot of personal
Speaker:toll that you've experienced that a lot of folks would just need to stop. And in fact, you did
Speaker:have to take a break. But maybe you can share with folks just without sharing any specific
Speaker:traumas, or if that's what you want to do. But I don't mean for this to be trauma porn. But
Speaker:I don't think people truly grasp how combative it is to simply demand for human rights in
Speaker:Palestine. Because as a white person, even I feel it. And when I go to speak on Palestine,
Speaker:in the back of my mind, I know someone out there is gonna call me an anti-Semite. I know it.
Speaker:I have to brace for it, right? And I have to persevere regardless. And I'm not trying to
Speaker:make myself sound courageous, but I'm telling you what my thought process is every single
Speaker:time. Every time I use a hashtag free Palestine or anything, or I even wanna like something.
Speaker:It goes through my brain that I am just, I am asking for it in a way. I am opening myself
Speaker:up to what I have experienced myself. But that's at the smallest level. I'm not sticking my
Speaker:neck out as an academic in that way. Yeah. I mean, it's, um, so I guess I just remembered
Speaker:now what I want to say. I wanted to say actually, so I hinted at this, but I do speak out on
Speaker:Twitter, even sometimes against, like I speak out about my own community. Right. And what
Speaker:I mean by that, I mean the Palestinian Saudi community more broadly. So, for example, I
Speaker:said Independent Jewish Voices joined us for the press conference. Until now, Independent
Speaker:Jewish Voices has not taken a stance against Zionism. Right. Even though they're, you know,
Speaker:a comparable organization, which is Jewish Voices for Peace in the U.S., they have taken a stance
Speaker:against Zionism. I went to, you know, Independent Jewish Voices conference this year, and I was
Speaker:just disappointed that I felt constantly erased. as a Palestinian by allies, right? And I don't
Speaker:want to get into that too much, but even I said there was a member of the Association of Palestinian
Speaker:Canadians from Ottawa who joined us for the press conference. He didn't mention Ahmad's
Speaker:name at all, okay? And I spoke to him before because he had just sent me the speech. I asked
Speaker:him to speak about Ahmad, but unfortunately a lot of Palestinians are even afraid to touch
Speaker:the issue of prisoners. Okay? Why? Because they think that, you know, like, I don't know, I
Speaker:guess they think they'll be targeted, you know, because like, you know, like the prisoners
Speaker:are like somewhat criminal or, yeah. Like, I don't know. I don't think they believe that,
Speaker:of course, but it's like, there is just like so much fear, right? And it's not, you know,
Speaker:it's just like a lot of organizations. I mean... I'm a board member for Canadians for Justice
Speaker:and Peace in the Middle East, right? And like, there's even troubles there trying to get them
Speaker:to be involved. So I'm saying like, of course you look at politicians and then you look at,
Speaker:you know, and it's disappointing because of course, Palestinian youth movement, there's
Speaker:like a lot of segments of the Palestinian population that are like extremely courageous and outspoken
Speaker:about these issues. And, but it's just unfortunate that... A lot of times, yeah, we have to push
Speaker:to unite within the Palestinian Solidarity Movement in so-called Canada. And I think there's a
Speaker:lot of unity work that needs to be done. Okay. But also, I guess, yeah, so I feel like, okay,
Speaker:I'll go back then too. So basically what happened is before I advocate for Ahmed, most of the
Speaker:work I've been doing is around BDS. So getting folks to know why it is important and act on
Speaker:boycotting Israel, I think that's the most powerful thing we can do as people who live outside
Speaker:of Palestine. And so, yeah, so when you talk about institutional harassment, I guess, yes,
Speaker:I am a victim of a lot of institutional violence but also I've been resisting against a lot
Speaker:of the oppression. For example, at York University, I led a motion calling on my faculty of environmental
Speaker:studies to end and not renew the relationship with ARAVA, which is an Israeli academic institute
Speaker:because of its greenwashing and complicity in Palestinian human rights violations. And it
Speaker:passed. It was possibly the first academic boycott against Israel, North America. It passed 20,
Speaker:I think it was 15 to 7. And you can bet, you know, I faced like... bullying by professors
Speaker:there and intimidation. And we saw immediately after that vote won, how Cija, the primary
Speaker:Israeli lobby in Canada, like went after the president of York, Rhonda Lenton. And I know
Speaker:this because they literally put it on like their Facebook page. And she released a statement,
Speaker:but it was so sketchy because it didn't even have her signature. It wasn't sent to all students
Speaker:like other statements that she does. But it was just kind of like. faculties don't have
Speaker:the right to boycott, it has to go through me. So she was like clamping down on faculty democracy.
Speaker:And yeah, and it was just really wild because then a month later, they tried to like reverse
Speaker:that motion without even telling me. I just happened to find out, you know, the day before
Speaker:and I went to New York and I defended it. So the motion stayed. But even then basically
Speaker:they kind of like rewrote the minutes. And then the dean, the dean actually of my faculty,
Speaker:he voted for my motion at first, okay? And then he came out being like, I don't know what I
Speaker:was doing, Gata manipulated us. Like the president is right, we don't have the right to boycott,
Speaker:it has to go through me. Like it's a hortative motion, it goes to the dean, and then the dean
Speaker:goes like, but I'm like, but you voted for it as the dean, right? Like, so yeah, you can
Speaker:see how there's so much intimidation, you know? And it's interesting because after I finished
Speaker:my masters in environmental studies, I was contemplating pursuing law or doctoral studies and a Palestinian
Speaker:lawyer who's really wonderful at the time advised me to go to law school because he's like, as
Speaker:an academic, you're always under the mercy of the institution. Right. But, you know, I still
Speaker:here I am. I kind of just went with the flow and I love studying and teaching. And so it
Speaker:made sense for me to be in academia. And. I still push wherever I can. For example, two
Speaker:years ago, we were gonna take part in the International Studies Association Conference. Basically,
Speaker:this is a conference that happens every year and it's the major one for my discipline. So
Speaker:all of us go to attend it. It's like, you know, over a hundred countries, I guess, they go
Speaker:to this conference. And basically, I think two years ago, we were gonna do like the first
Speaker:BDS panel and it was with like Refuse Ziade and a lot of other big names. And it was plainly
Speaker:rejected by the ISA because they said, we didn't have a Zionist voice for balance. And so at
Speaker:the time, basically, I was mostly working with a group of profs on this panel. They were kind
Speaker:of responding to them and not really going anywhere. It's a panel, not a debate. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker:So I think I was kind of pushing for more I guess, aggressive approach with them. No doubt.
Speaker:Because I feel like sometimes academics, they're too afraid to organize and speak up. And they're
Speaker:too kind of using kind of polite diplomatic language that doesn't do anything, right? And
Speaker:so about a year later, what happened was actually the conference was like a hybrid model. So
Speaker:a lot of people actually didn't even go and it was in Nashville. So I actually went at
Speaker:the time and I got to see the president of the ISA and just confronted him. He's like, send
Speaker:me the emails. And I did and then basically he said, oh no, your event was canceled because
Speaker:of the pandemic. And I was like, no, here are the proof, it's clearly not the pandemic. And
Speaker:then he's like, oh, just apply again. I said, no, I'm not applying again until you ensure
Speaker:that we are gonna be accepted. It's not gonna be declined and for no reason. And I just made
Speaker:it clear, this is anti-Palestinian racism. This is suppression of free speech. You know, you
Speaker:wouldn't go to Black Lives Matter panel and be like, why isn't there a white supremacist
Speaker:voice, right? At the conference, you know. Or even an environmental and ask for big oil and
Speaker:gas to take the stage. Right, exactly. Or you don't have, you know, ISA does these like land
Speaker:acknowledgments. And it's like, you know what I mean? So there's so much hypocrisy. And so
Speaker:when I sent him that email, I think I was scaring a lot of scholars because I was like, you know,
Speaker:kind of like speaking for that group. But sure enough, he said, OK. and they guaranteed that
Speaker:it would be approved and it was approved. So last year we held the panel. It was this time
Speaker:the conference was in Montreal. Good on you. So, yeah, so I am thankful that I don't just
Speaker:do activism, but I do see results in my work. I am results oriented, right? Like, unfortunately,
Speaker:I think it's not just really just about, I think a lot of times in activism and like social
Speaker:media, I think a lot of people are just like. driven by like, you know, kind of like you
Speaker:said, it's like the photo ops, it's more like about image. It's not even just the politicians,
Speaker:right? It's kind of like, just try to look good and put others down and it's not actually about
Speaker:helping the people of Palestine or the oppressed fight back. So that's why I thought it was,
Speaker:yeah. And about my writing, I guess I can mention that was interesting because I had... My first
Speaker:chapter was published by a really well-known journal, thankfully, right? But you know what's
Speaker:interesting is I've been getting published... I also had a book review published recently,
Speaker:and it was a very critical book review. And I was advised by the scholars, like, you probably
Speaker:won't get this approved, right? And I did. And it's not like to say I haven't had challenges,
Speaker:right? Sometimes you'll have, you know, blind peer reviewers being like, oh, I don't like
Speaker:what you talk about Zionism, or what kind of Zionism are you talking about? all of Cyanism,
Speaker:right? Like I have to kind of put my foot down and challenge... Hold the line, right? Because
Speaker:a lot of times they try to like gaslight me, right? Yeah, and so I just kind of had to exactly
Speaker:toe the line, so I kind of have to stand up for myself. And sometimes I kind of get threats,
Speaker:like if you don't do X, Y, and Z as like in your paper, we're not going to approve it,
Speaker:for example. And then I learned actually peer reviewers don't have that power. It actually
Speaker:goes down to the editor. So as long as you make a good case. So what I found really useful
Speaker:in this case, I think in academia in general, is just having a community. For example, PECAN,
Speaker:which is Palestinian, Canadian Academic and Artist Network, was founded just a couple of
Speaker:years ago. And it was just so refreshing. I think a year ago when I joined them, I'm on
Speaker:their steering committee now, but a year ago when I joined them, and I was talking about
Speaker:complaints, I've fortunately been facing complaints. You know. typical being accused, like you said,
Speaker:of anti-Semitism or something because of my activism. And somebody asked the group, like
Speaker:who here had a complaint made against them as like a professor or artist and like everybody
Speaker:put their hand up. So at least in a sense you feel like, hey, I'm not alone. Because what
Speaker:happens in a lot of cases kind of try to gaslight you as like a bad person, right? You kind of
Speaker:have somewhat, I feel like just like some kind of support, someone to vent to, right? So I
Speaker:feel like community was really helpful and having allies who were just, you know, able to guide
Speaker:me, like other academics who are, you know, battling against transphobia, for example,
Speaker:like were able to link about, you know, what we're facing, right? Cause academia can be
Speaker:very isolating. And I think having a community of people is really helpful. And yeah, I mean,
Speaker:we just find pockets to push back, right? Yeah, pushing back seems key because when you try
Speaker:to simply navigate through the tools that they want you to use, right? Get yourself a seat
Speaker:on the board of governors. Get a petition. Get all the faculties to sign. Get all the student
Speaker:groups to sign. Present it. Get it passed. And the rules change. The finish line is moved.
Speaker:And the only time, not the only time, but the successes that you've listed off to us and
Speaker:the gains that you've made. seem to only come when you are agitating, right? Maybe going
Speaker:against conventional advice, going against the system head on, making public accusations,
Speaker:right? Like being loud, not keeping it under wraps, which is typically how things are cordial.
Speaker:Sorry. Typically how you're encouraged to do things, right? Send an email, sit down with
Speaker:a private meeting with them. that only goes so far when they're going to turn around and
Speaker:give you a half-assed effort when, when you need it. So that's a lot of, that's a lot more
Speaker:work, right? It's like double the work every time to do it through the proper channels.
Speaker:Cause if you don't, you'll forever be accused of co-opting the system and, and being in that
Speaker:agitator. So you kind of have to play the game, but also play all those side games involved.
Speaker:And that's gotta be. exhausting a little bit. So thankfully, you've seen some victories there
Speaker:that probably keep fueling that fire because even understanding all of the rules, right,
Speaker:to follow them can be a lot. Right? Like I remember trying to, with the Why U Divest movement at
Speaker:York, so that was, you know, attempts to get... the entire university to divest from specifically
Speaker:weapons manufacturers. It wasn't a Palestinian issue in so much that it had to be couched
Speaker:that way, right? That with the limitations because it was easier because of the resistance you
Speaker:face any time you said you were doing something pro-Palestine and in fact even the presence.
Speaker:of Palestinian groups in that movement were enough to label anti-Semitic claims at the
Speaker:entire group.
Speaker:As a community, it's nice to see that those connections are made, but at the same time,
Speaker:how do you not burn out? How do you keep dealing with all of those? pressures and you know you're
Speaker:it seems like you're always on the offense and defense right like we talked about different
Speaker:uses of tactics but you're constantly employing both of them it's tricky right but honestly
Speaker:yeah you do have to of course protect yourself because you know and sometimes that looks like
Speaker:just me like taking some breaks from activism I'm actually quite sensitive to seeing like
Speaker:video content so I try to avoid seeing like graphic imagery for example and I have my own
Speaker:critiques about that I feel like a lot of times you like to humanize as people and it contributes
Speaker:to I don't know like the normalization of violence and it invades the privacy of the victims but
Speaker:yeah I think I think you can you kind of try to do what you can at the time for me like
Speaker:of course besides when I'm still working on Regarding Ahmed, I... Sorry, it's okay. So
Speaker:basically, I'm still working regarding Ahmed, but I'm also focusing on finishing my degree.
Speaker:And obviously, like the PhD degree, it gives you a lot of power, because it's like, you
Speaker:know, as a woman of color, you're already seen as like emotional, irrational, all of that.
Speaker:And so with a PhD somewhat, you're given some credibility, but you know what's interesting
Speaker:is... despite all of the difficulties I've had in academia, I mentioned that I did publish
Speaker:in some really good journals and I am getting invited actually, instead of me having to reach
Speaker:out to these publishers, they're reaching out to me. So I wanted to say this because I feel
Speaker:people talk a lot about risks going in, but there's also a lot of reward that I think when
Speaker:you speak from integrity, like something you're passionate about, you're... you're daring to
Speaker:speak on a topic a lot of people aren't, right? That opens up a lot of opportunities. Like
Speaker:a lot of people are just, you know, had a book about post-colonial being like, we're not going
Speaker:to publish until we get a chapter in Palestine. Can you please write us a chapter? Right. So,
Speaker:yeah. I mean, yeah. Right. So, yeah, that's really nice. And and you do feel the tide is
Speaker:changing. And I am I am an optimist and actually do. believe that Palestine will be free by
Speaker:2030. And I have my own explanation for this.
Speaker:You can't leave us like that, Gada. Give us hope because that brings me a little bit of
Speaker:tingles. Yeah. So I remember actually when we had like, I don't know what the York strikes.
Speaker:I can't remember which year it was. And we had Jamal Jamai. We were inviting him as a SIA
Speaker:York.
Speaker:big BDS organizer, we brought him from Palestine. And at the time he explained how like, the
Speaker:BDS, like BDS Palestine is working around like BDS South Africa, right? As a model. And so
Speaker:they took about 30 years to be able to dismantle the South African apartheid regime. We started
Speaker:BDS in 2005, right? But from what I see, there's like a great visual from Visualizing Palestine
Speaker:that compares. progress of the South African apartheid movement and the Palestinian one.
Speaker:The Palestinian one actually shows progress faster than the South African one, which you
Speaker:would hope for because, you know, we would hope that we would have learned from history, right?
Speaker:Yeah, there's a model. We know we were on the wrong side so you think we would not repeat
Speaker:it. Right, and I think it's important because a lot of people until now they really dismiss
Speaker:BDS and, no, BDS has been having a lot of work and, yes, we are seeing this worsening Israeli
Speaker:government and the colonization is increasing. But at the same time, we are seeing more and
Speaker:more people know about Palestine, speak up, we're seeing the polls change, we're seeing
Speaker:the Jewish community is standing up to Zionism more and more. So we are seeing this pushback.
Speaker:And I think even the election of this far right government is kind of like a sign of like the
Speaker:end of Israeli apartheid, right? Because even... Absolutely, because as power slips, the fist
Speaker:grows tighter. Right? And often that has a detrimental effect in the end. It backfires. But it's what
Speaker:the powerful do when they realize they're losing that grip a little bit. Right. They squeeze
Speaker:a little tighter. So surely I agree that is a sign. Yeah. And the mask is just slipping
Speaker:more and more, you know, whatever facade there is. That's why you're seeing Israelis protesting
Speaker:now, because it's like more overt the fascism. But. Yeah, I guess I personally believe like,
Speaker:and it's just so interesting. I read this book, I think it was Ali Abunima, something, Justice
Speaker:in Palestine. I need to get the name of the book, but Battle for Justice in Palestine.
Speaker:And so the book, I think it was there where it was talking about how nobody expected South
Speaker:African apartheid to fall just six months before it did, right? Like things when they turn,
Speaker:they can change so fast. So I think about the same thing that we're likely to be seeing in
Speaker:Palestine, besides all the on-ground resistance we're seeing. We're seeing, you know, violent
Speaker:resistance, non-violent resistance across 48 Palestine, Gaza. So, you know, I think I saw
Speaker:yesterday on the news Gaza Strip, you know, they're burning tires and just like directing
Speaker:the wind towards like the Israelis. Like, like they're just doing anything at their disposal
Speaker:every day to resist. Right. So I see how that gives you like for folks who can't see Gaza.
Speaker:her face lights up as she speaks about these, which seem like really small acts of resistance,
Speaker:perhaps to us, but inherently put those people in danger. And just, I think I just wanted
Speaker:to make note of it because those are like sparks that really keep the diaspora going. We've
Speaker:had guests on here before that have spoken about what it feels like to see the resistance and
Speaker:not necessarily the violence, because I understand. But parts of the videos that do kind of show
Speaker:that even under these conditions, if they can keep fighting, surely you can keep fighting.
Speaker:Yeah, exactly. It takes so much of my strength from people back home. Even like Ahmad, you
Speaker:know, in his last trial, he was smiling, you know? He has so much strength to still smile.
Speaker:And like, you know, I just saw the journalist, you know, how are you doing, Salah to confinement?
Speaker:And he's like... you know, God willing, I'll be free, like, you know, and it just broke
Speaker:my heart, even when he's asking the lawyer, like, is it haram to commit suicide? Like,
Speaker:it's horrible, but at the same time, it's like, you know, this young man is just holding onto
Speaker:his faith, and, and yeah, it's just really inspires me to just keep fighting whenever I can, because
Speaker:I know I am privileged in so many ways, and another thing I try to keep aware of also is
Speaker:like, staying in touch with folks back home, my family. And, you know, because I have my
Speaker:own privilege here and I do often visit Palestine, of course, the occupied West Bank. But yeah,
Speaker:it's, I think that was actually my first trip to Palestine as like a teenager. So I was old
Speaker:enough to understand what was happening. That was really what motivated me to do activism
Speaker:around Palestine, because there's so much like Twitter debate about like, don't visit Palestine,
Speaker:but BDS, which is, you know, endorsed by a large segment of Palestinian civil society, says
Speaker:actually encourages people to visit Palestine. Specifically the occupied, you know, Palestinian
Speaker:territories. And of course, if you are, you know, going on Palestinian led tours, supporting
Speaker:Palestinian businesses. And from my experience, actually visiting Palestine, even as a Palestinian
Speaker:was just huge because you don't realize the violence really until you're there. Like you
Speaker:see the Israeli snipers pointing at you just for driving, little of the day, for no reason,
Speaker:right? settlers walking around with huge guns, or just like the settlers, just invade your
Speaker:village and break watermelon, just wreak havoc, burn some trees. So you just see all of that's
Speaker:happening, and at the same time, you just see the beauty of the Palestinian people, their
Speaker:generosity. They're like, it's just, it just really inspires to be like, wow, this is such
Speaker:an enormous injustice, and I wanna do something to help. Yeah. It's funny, not funny, but even
Speaker:visiting back home has its own controversy built into it. Right. I feel like you had to almost
Speaker:justify to me there the fact that you would go home and visit family. I mean, I understand
Speaker:that the premise that you may be giving money to the Zionist government through your travels.
Speaker:Yeah, the controversy is more based to like, it's directed to non-Palestinians who are visiting
Speaker:Palestine. I would hope so, because I think that line has to be very distinct, that we
Speaker:cannot tell people in exile that they should have the right to return, but not yet. No,
Speaker:of course. And, but no, even for non-Palestinians, as far as I understand, even my experience,
Speaker:like most Palestinians welcome when people come because it's like they get to see what's happening.
Speaker:And actually Israel has been... trying to prevent people from going to the West Bank or prevent,
Speaker:you know, like discourage people, it's dangerous, because they don't want people to see the truth.
Speaker:And I wanna be careful around that, because some people say, oh, I never visited to like
Speaker:know the truth. You don't have to visit it, right? And the reality isn't sometimes all
Speaker:that real. Like a lot of it's manufactured to look in it, right? When you go on an Israeli-led
Speaker:tour, they're very careful. Oh, I've heard that even myself, like I can't comment on Palestine
Speaker:and Israel because I have not. visited it. That has been told to me many, many times. So I
Speaker:don't know anyone to be so nervy as to level that at a Palestinian. But I get that. I often
Speaker:move to Cuba. It's such a ridiculous argument, right? As if like, you know, for me, I think
Speaker:what's the most important when learning about any place is centering the voice of the people
Speaker:who are being oppressed, right? In this case, listening to Palestinians on the ground and
Speaker:like... There's so much scholarship, and even I on Palestine, now it's hard to see it as
Speaker:a Canadian, because it's new law. But there's so many now, social media, you just see things
Speaker:happening all the time, right? You don't really need to be there. Yeah, I just wanted to say,
Speaker:I think it's unfortunate sometimes people, I feel like they just, you know, activists sometimes
Speaker:just are like pit. against each other and it's not helpful. Well, we're getting near the end
Speaker:of our time. And like I said, I know especially this audience, but even the broader general
Speaker:public here in Canada does not agree with the tenets of Zionism, nor the behaviors of the
Speaker:Israeli government. What can your everyday person, I know we hold a lot more power than we think
Speaker:we do, but let's just call ourselves everyday regular people, what can we do to free political
Speaker:prisoners or to realize a free Palestine in 2030? I think honestly whatever is in your
Speaker:capacity, right? So maybe that just looks like signing the occasional petition and honestly
Speaker:that's great. Maybe that looks like maybe you're working for an NGO and you can get them to
Speaker:issue a statement or you can email your MP calling for the freedom of Ahmad. Even just educating
Speaker:yourself about Palestine, keeping in touch about what's going on. BDS is huge for us. So...
Speaker:trying to get companies to divest from, you know, some of the biggest, people think BDS
Speaker:is like targeting all Israeli companies, but actually targets the few and some of the worst
Speaker:human rights violators. So you can find that on the BDS movement's website. They cool like
Speaker:HP, Israeli fruits and vegetables, right? So these are some of the biggest on our list.
Speaker:So yeah, how do we ensure we're boycotting divestment? divesting from how are we implementing academic
Speaker:boycott against Israel. So yeah, we all have our own interests, skills and time and privilege
Speaker:to push in our own way. So I think when people put their mind to it, anything's possible.
Speaker:Because when it came to the birthday protest, it was just a small idea and it was me and
Speaker:honestly just a bunch of my friends, most of them not even Palestinian who were like organized
Speaker:and it was beautifully. done and it was actually watched by Ahmad Manasseh's mom. Like that
Speaker:was so powerful to me, right? So, you know, if at the very least just that Ahmad knows
Speaker:that there's people about him who care, right? Everybody on his birthday was talking about
Speaker:him. For me, that was huge, right? So I think, yeah, it's important to stay hopeful. Don't
Speaker:get cynical because at the end of the day, yeah, like Israel is an apartheid regime. It's not
Speaker:going to, you know, these oppressive regimes, they don't last forever. And we as the people
Speaker:have the power to overturn that. And yeah, so I'll keep leaving it there. I love your optimism.
Speaker:And thank you so much for visiting the show and sharing your experience and mostly for
Speaker:just continuing to do the work that you do. I'll be sure to link a lot of this stuff back
Speaker:into the show notes so folks can dive into it deeper. Look at BDS. perhaps we can load up
Speaker:that visual that gives you hope in seeing a free Palestine a lot sooner than I think maybe
Speaker:us pessimists would have thought, but I am renewed in my hope here, not just speaking to you,
Speaker:but seeing the truth on your face and the way that you light up thinking about it. And so
Speaker:surely that's contagious. So thank you so much, Gata. Thank you, Jessa. Always a pleasure talking
Speaker:to you. Yes. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for
Speaker:joining us. Also a very big thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Halu-Quintero.
Speaker:Blueprints of Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively. You can follow us on
Speaker:Twitter at BPofDisruption. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the status quo,
Speaker:please share our content. And if you have the means, consider becoming a patron. Not only
Speaker:does our support come from the progressive community, so does our content. So reach out to us and
Speaker:let us know what or who we should be amplifying. So until next time, keep disrupting.
