We Keep Us Safe
If we're going to disrupt the system, we must make sure the movements we create are safe. In the show's premier episode, Host Jessa McLean chats with Community Activist, Noodle, to discuss how we protect ourselves and our comrades, and how doing that builds a much richer community for activists to thrive in.
Noodle provides practical tools and also deeper perspectives on what it means to keep the community we work with safe.
Transcript
Welcome to the very first episode of Blueprints of Disruption.
Speaker:I'm so excited to kick this discussion off not just because it's our first episode, but because I think we found the perfect starting point for a larger discussion on activism in Canada.
Speaker:When I first announced that I would be recording a podcast, I had quite a few people reach out, and one that stood out in particular reminded me that, you know, if I was going to provide tools to activists across Canada, if we were going to encourage people to do direct action and to disrupt the status quo, then it was important that we start by teaching people how to keep themselves safe, teaching people how to keep the community safe and their movement safe.
Speaker:And so our first guest is Noodle, a community activist and a expert in operational security.
Speaker:OPSEC will refer to it throughout the interview.
Speaker:When I first set up the interview with Noodle, my first intentions were to provide a 101 for activists basic tools that they could immediately take into the field, particularly organisers.
Speaker:And but what we ended up with was so much more than that.
Speaker:We gained insight into why security within movements is important.
Speaker:We learnt the limitations on the tools that Noodle will provide.
Speaker:Why it's important to strike a balance between accessibility and security.
Speaker:Mostly, though, we'll learn how trust is built and what folks really mean when they say we keep us safe without any further hesitation.
Speaker:Here's the interview with Noodle.
Speaker:So welcome to Blueprints of Disruption.
Speaker:Today we are going to be talking a lot about OPSEC and InfoSec, and maybe you don't even know what that means right now.
Speaker:But by the end of this conversation, I'm sure you will.
Speaker:Today we have with us Noodle, a community activist.
Speaker:Noodle, can you introduce yourself to those who maybe have not met you?
Speaker:Yes, hello.
Speaker:And I would hope that a lot of people wouldn't recognise or have met me.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I go by noodle only I guess that's local community activist and slash organiser.
Speaker:I'm part of a few groups in the, I guess area known as Canada.
Speaker:And yeah, I've been doing this for a number of years.
Speaker:You know, I've always had kind of political leaning tendencies, but was radicalised some years back as I got older and realised that a lot of things weren't necessarily as I was told you were.
Speaker:You were radicalised at a young age, so to speak.
Speaker:I mean, I would say that I was probably the early beginnings of my radicalisation, probably came from the music that I listened to that I didn't really quite grasp the content of the lyrics, but there were seeds that were planted that made, you know, a lot more sense.
Speaker:When I was older and I was able to put two and two together, I'm like, I understand.
Speaker:So any tune in particular you comes up to me?
Speaker:I would say a lot of the music that I listened to was labelled as, I guess, counterculture, whether it's like the punk rock scene or the hip hop scene.
Speaker:You know, there were just words to me when I was a lot younger that I would sing along with and I'd be like, Yeah, okay, that's cool.
Speaker:And then, you know, those lyrics and ideologies, you know, kind of melded together when I was older and had a little bit more grasp of things.
Speaker:But yeah, nothing in, in one thing in particular, but genres, you know.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So you became politically aware, but what made you focus?
Speaker:Not that all 100% of your focus is on this, but what made you really hone in on OPSEC and keeping activists safe?
Speaker:I mean, why do you go by noodle?
Speaker:Oh, that's a good question.
Speaker:Question that you have answers for.
Speaker:My my first experiences into with on the ground activism locally here, you know, there was a couple of demonstrations and things that were happening, you know, on the place that I was at, including a really large one about ten years ago where, you know, there was a mass police, massive police action and where hundreds of people were kettled and arrested despite just not having actually done anything and had their lives, you know, disrupted and potentially, you know, sidetracked entirely for years as a result of, you know, court proceedings and that kind of thing.
Speaker:And I guess I couldn't make any sense of why that would happen when people are.
Speaker:Do anything wrong.
Speaker:And then I looked into more historical precedents of entire movements being shut down due to, you know, these kinds of things being infiltrated or just completely disrupted by bad faith actors.
Speaker:And also just having seen people physically harmed and doxxed when using, you know, their outright, I guess, identities without any concern for security or safety of the people around them.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:At the end of the day, I think activism and security, maybe I should refrain this.
Speaker:I think it's a really good question because activism and security should actually go hand in hand.
Speaker:So it shouldn't be one or the other.
Speaker:A It shouldn't be separate from each other.
Speaker:You know, if you're doing activism, the idea is that you're changing your you're attempting to work towards a change in the status quo, as we know the ones in power have no interest in.
Speaker:That's what that's the whole idea of activism.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:We need to be advocates for something against the greater I guess we can use words like state or, you know, ruling class or, you know, the reality is the ones in power that make all the decisions for us despite calling us a democracy.
Speaker:And and now it's not just the state.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:We have open fascists brazenly taking to the streets.
Speaker:I imagine security becomes a concern on that front, too.
Speaker:But here we're talking more specifically protecting ourselves from the police.
Speaker:Now, I've been to large demonstrations that had had similar outcomes, and I think I remained naive to the extent of.
Speaker:What we needed to be doing.
Speaker:So I mean, why do we have to protect ourselves against the police?
Speaker:A lot of people would ask us, right.
Speaker:Like we're just organising marches, perhaps shouting outside of empty offices, not doing anything, quote unquote, illegal.
Speaker:That's a really common kind of common.
Speaker:That's that's a good question and a good way to phrase it and really good food for thought.
Speaker:But so I would kind of respond with the whole kind of incorrect trope of like, if you've done nothing wrong, then you've got nothing to be afraid of.
Speaker:Line that people often use to make apologies for police violence and state violence.
Speaker:And just in general, the whole overarching idea that, oh, you know, it's okay, like talk to police and give them all the information because you've done nothing wrong so you won't be harmed or convicted or arrested or anything.
Speaker:And we know that that's not true.
Speaker:I mean, you know, anybody that has an open mind or has been paying attention to police violence all across the world specifically, but also very specifically to, you know, Western, you know, policing in North America, I should say, where it's an actual war.
Speaker:I mean, like, why why would you need to?
Speaker:Why would you want to give them any more information that they can use against you and will use against you regardless of whether or not you've done anything wrong?
Speaker:They just might not like the look of you.
Speaker:And at the end of day or you've mentioned picketing outside offices or protests, those protests are aimed directly at challenging the status quo in the power.
Speaker:I mean, your opponents are the ones that are that the police literally work for.
Speaker:So, I mean, why would we need to defend ourselves from increased police activity?
Speaker:Is that's a that's something that I guess that would depend on where you fall politically in your ideology.
Speaker:Like, do you trust the police in the first place or do you have a mistrust of police violence and misuse of powers?
Speaker:That kind of brings me to a point that we were going to talk about later, but it seems like natural now.
Speaker:So it's not everybody's experience that they need to take certain precautions.
Speaker:It seemed if you were in Ottawa or, you know, on Capitol Hill, January 6th, they seemed untouchable.
Speaker:No concern for, you know, protecting their personal identities.
Speaker:I've heard you speak, you know, Black Bloc tactics, not nothing.
Speaker:In fact, they were live streaming as they did a lot of them.
Speaker:So I think that goes to your point as to the to the systems that we're challenging.
Speaker:But, I mean, what were you thinking as you see this unfold?
Speaker:You know, you give everyone warnings on what to do and how to be safe.
Speaker:And then, you know, you watch this with impunity.
Speaker:I guess that speaks to the wider issue of the right wing has always had power on their side in terms of political power and police action, laws, mandates.
Speaker:They're the ones that write the laws.
Speaker:So they've had a false sense of security or I shouldn't say fault.
Speaker:They have had a real sense of security in terms of right wing players, have genuinely never needed to or wanted to disguise himself.
Speaker:I mean, this goes back many, many years and decades.
Speaker:But let's just take Charlottesville, for example.
Speaker:You know, you have many of the outright neo-Nazis feeling that they don't need to cover their identities.
Speaker:And the truth is that they didn't for a long time, because, I mean, they're on the same side as the ones who enforce capital.
Speaker:And to use that big buzzword that is often misused.
Speaker:But fascism fascism is a is an actual political ideology.
Speaker:It's not just things that you don't like or somebody telling you to clean your room, but you know the side.
Speaker:Even if it feels that way.
Speaker:Even if it feels that way.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And it's valid.
Speaker:I get it.
Speaker:And I understand language evolves and change, but fascism is this very specific political ideology that's bent on, you know, capitalism as survivor, primary source of oppression and exploitation.
Speaker:But so a lot of those people in it, like you mentioned in the convoy or Jan six, don't feel that they need to hide.
Speaker:But, you know, the state has done what they have needed to on a very minimal amount of things, as you would use the term kid gloves.
Speaker:You know, they've laid charges on people and very few as as scapegoats.
Speaker:So there really hasn't been any mass implications for the right wing to go underground at this point.
Speaker:But, I mean, there's decades of historical.
Speaker:Precedent where leftists have been targeted for having their identities known by the police, by the state, by employers, by individuals.
Speaker:You know, a lot of us have been personally doxxed by very violent individuals.
Speaker:State or not, state.
Speaker:And it kind of teaches you real quick that, you know, you should take some basic safety precautions, because a lot of us have people in our lives that don't want to see hurt in any way, shape or form.
Speaker:Whereas the right wing thinks I know of sorry, knows that they are on the side of capital, essentially, which is the winning side.
Speaker:Sorry, I should say the winning side.
Speaker:The power side.
Speaker:So there's a there's a huge imbalance there.
Speaker:Definitely.
Speaker:I mean, it was enraging as an organiser to watch because it's like I gave you this example when we spoke before, but I organised a simple a series of rotating protests outside of NPR's offices.
Speaker:Back a few years ago for the fight for fairness.
Speaker:And every time I would be in my vehicle driving to the location or perhaps a few hours before I would get a call from a police officer identifying himself as a community liaison officer.
Speaker:He would just let it be known that he knew where I was going.
Speaker:He knew who was going to be there, would review all of the bylaws and laws that I should be aware of despite being on the phone with me the week before.
Speaker:And although that did clue me in to, you know, my number was not on any of the places, you know, I know that the police, they have resources.
Speaker:But still, I thought, like, I'm not doing anything illegal.
Speaker:I don't care if they know who I am, but.
Speaker:You know, I didn't take to consideration the social mapping, the the, you know, danger I could be putting my comrades in.
Speaker:I also did not anticipate ever being charged for the outcome of, you know, any property damage.
Speaker:Oh, my God.
Speaker:Not property damage.
Speaker:No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker:Worst case scenario is a broken window at Starbucks.
Speaker:We know this, but you know, those things never crossed my mind.
Speaker:They do now, obviously, because we're seeing a lot of Black Lives Matter protesters, especially in the United States, facing felony charges.
Speaker:So for for doing kind of what seems like an innocuous needed protest, things that we do quite often and with such serious repercussions, I don't know if you know any specific examples you want to share or can kind of speak to that, how the need has become perhaps more obvious to folks that we're not just protecting, you know, ourselves as organisers, but also the communities.
Speaker:It's like one of those things like this.
Speaker:This is such I'd like to kind of go back to, to basics a little bit, right?
Speaker:So I guess like one of the things that when we talk about security culture a lot of times, especially in people newer to this, we'll kind of brush it off and be like, listen, like we're not like again, like you mentioned with your very specific samples that are really helpful, like we're not doing anything illegal.
Speaker:Like, you know, like we have the leader of the Liberal Party and also the Prime Minister going on TV every single time.
Speaker:There's like a protest that makes the news that says you have a right to protest and that's a cornerstone of democracy.
Speaker:But but you have to do it peacefully and within the law.
Speaker:I mean, you hear something like that and you're like, Yeah, okay, I can go organise, you know, left leaning or whatever, you know, protest outside an MP because the Prime Minister says so.
Speaker:But I mean like process, it's never worked.
Speaker:If it falls specifically in the guidelines of what the people you're protesting allow you how they allow you to protest, right?
Speaker:So anything that challenges their power, they are going to take a look at it and they're not going to like it.
Speaker:They don't.
Speaker:The government has no it has no interest in peaceful protest or protest of any kind.
Speaker:The misnomer of peaceful protest is it's it's it's false.
Speaker:When you say that when you say that peaceful protest is false, you mean in the eyes of the state, essentially, or just the very act of disruption is is violence.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And it also puts people on the side of this protest is only legit because we deem it as peaceful.
Speaker:This protest is not legitimate because the window is broken or that somebody punched a fascist in the face.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Like, it's it's like.
Speaker:So my protest is only valid and legitimate if it's deemed peaceful, as in it falls within the guidelines and the law of what?
Speaker:The power that I'm protesting allows like it's a very much of a misnomer and very much weaponized language that media will use.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Oh, this is a peaceful protest.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Whereas to that completely delegitimizes any other protest that is deemed not peaceful by the state.
Speaker:And as soon as they deem it not peaceful outcomes, the tear gas and the horse.
Speaker:Sorry, that's another subject that that's another subject itself.
Speaker:But it does go hand in hand with activism and the need for security, because in the eyes of the state, any left protests or any protest that is going against their their their their power or their narrative is not going to be considered peaceful in their eyes anyway.
Speaker:It's almost like if you're not if you haven't grasped their attention, you're likely not doing it right.
Speaker:I mean.
Speaker:In a sense.
Speaker:In a sense, yes.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Like they're not concerned with with a B marches so much anymore.
Speaker:You know, they're they're worried about property damage.
Speaker:They're worried about what they call rioting.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:That and to be marched is very kind of like essential.
Speaker:And it's good for solidarity and community building and making noise.
Speaker:But, you know, an Arab march has been peaceful, which I mean, we've seen by the weekly air quotes freedom fighters for the anti mandate and anti-vax folk, how they're freely allowed to march every single week in, you know, in large masses through downtown core without any sort of police disruption.
Speaker:I mean, like.
Speaker:Or permits.
Speaker:Or permits.
Speaker:And that really doesn't really accomplish anything either, whether it's the left or the right at the end of the day.
Speaker:But those marches combined with political action are power.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And they're they're scared of that.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I was going to say, like although like they don't accomplish anything in terms of disruption or, you know, perhaps getting the response from the state, it does, you know, help to build movements in a way.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:It's like it's it's essential to show solidarity in the streets.
Speaker:Is is very powerful.
Speaker:But it can also be very demoralising when, you know, 20 people show up to something instead of yeah.
Speaker:Instead of you just hope for the best sometimes.
Speaker:And yeah.
Speaker:And it's interesting how much resources the police and right wing will, I guess, allocate to shutting even those down.
Speaker:It's it's actually really, really amazing.
Speaker:Like, really.
Speaker:So again, it goes to the need for why do we make their jobs easier when we can take a few security tips, you know, security practises that we can incorporate into our workflow just to make their lives a little bit more difficult without really making your life any harder.
Speaker:So I guess let's.
Speaker:Talk about.
Speaker:That.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah, let's talk about that.
Speaker:So I'm a we call it a small time organiser.
Speaker:I suppose so, as.
Speaker:We all are, you know.
Speaker:Until we get together and do big things, right?
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Many parts make one big.
Speaker:What what are some of the basic things, the most accessible things that you would tell people to just start doing besides being aware of their presence online?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I think that's step one.
Speaker:First kind of acknowledging all the places you are, your photo, your name, your friends lists, what you like and don't like.
Speaker:But I think people are becoming more hyper aware.
Speaker:What do we do now?
Speaker:I mean.
Speaker:Okay, so there's there's a terminology that sounds like super militaristic, blah, blah, blah, but terminology of threat modelling, right.
Speaker:So maybe is a good place to start is a, you know, if you're an activist, like what are you, what are you concerned about?
Speaker:First and foremost, like, what do you do and what threat are you worried about?
Speaker:Are you worried about state surveillance?
Speaker:Are you worried about somebody you're arguing with online, not having access to all of your personal information, like where you live and where you work, etc.?
Speaker:Or are you interested in building a bigger movement that's going to challenge state power and you don't want to be disrupted and shut down internally before that even gets off the ground.
Speaker:So there's like those are like kind of three different small things.
Speaker:Yes, yes.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Like jewellery and like and thing is like, do we want to make it easier for for people?
Speaker:And then this also brings up the thing where a lot of people, especially who are newer to organising or have never experienced, you know, bad shit happening to them is I'm not afraid.
Speaker:I'm not scared.
Speaker:Let them come.
Speaker:I have nothing to hide.
Speaker:Well, to that I say you should be afraid because it doesn't matter what reality is.
Speaker:Because politicians like power structures lie to maintain power.
Speaker:It doesn't really matter if you think you have anything to hide or it can be used.
Speaker:Information will be used against you.
Speaker:We see this with disinformation and misinformation and improperly corrected reported stories where they choose specific language to reframe everything, or they'll take some of the content that you have on your personal pages or old pictures and take it completely out of context.
Speaker:And now, even though you haven't actually done what they're saying in the world's eyes, you have.
Speaker:So wait.
Speaker:Noodle, noodle.
Speaker:You're not implying the police fabricate evidence from the trove of stuff that you've put online?
Speaker:They don't they don't do that for small time fish like me, do they?
Speaker:And they would absolutely never lie in court or fabricate evidence, even for something as benign as a speeding ticket.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Know I've never known anyone to personally experience that for a $200 fine.
Speaker:I can only imagine if.
Speaker:If if larger things are that.
Speaker:So what do I do with my facebook account then noodle like I am everywhere.
Speaker:And a lot of people are right.
Speaker:We've really exposed ourselves.
Speaker:How do we still remain visible so people can find us and we can build those networks you're talking about to overthrow capitalism, but also at the same time make sure that the more subversive work that needs to be done isn't thwarted or infiltrated or stymied in any way.
Speaker:There's.
Speaker:That's a really good question.
Speaker:And I guess for a lot of people, they have that question right.
Speaker:Like, I want to be part of the partisan movement.
Speaker:I would like to be vocal.
Speaker:I have you know, I would like to contribute to the community.
Speaker:And then you have a lot of other people who are not so much, you know, that's not really their priority.
Speaker:They just want to do work on the ground.
Speaker:They want to do work and do their part.
Speaker:And they're not really concerned with so much needing, you know, more of an open facing kind of online presence.
Speaker:So I guess I would break it down in two different ways.
Speaker:If you need an online kind of like open kind of profile where people know who you are and you want to kind of bring more of the mainstream into the fold and just kind of start working in that world, then, yeah, that's that's fantastic.
Speaker:There are still a lot of security things that you can do with, you know, just not having anybody else's information that's in your life on your on your Facebook or, you know, we can talk about Compartmentalisation, where you would leave any sort of spicy kind of activism and organising off of your main public profile, facing any of your spicier hot takes would be relegated to more of an anonymous kind of type profile.
Speaker:But there's I guess it would it's really different for a lot of people.
Speaker:But the main takeaway is not to make their jobs any easier.
Speaker:We already know that there's a real problem with data and privacy on all the social media apps, including Facebook, especially Facebook, which we know has been there all over immediately for a law enforcement.
Speaker:So, you know, your entire life, online life can be dissected with one subpoena request to Facebook and they'll just hand it all over.
Speaker:You can download your own information from Facebook and see how that can be misused if you want to take a look.
Speaker:Now, on a side note, the MDP makes you do that.
Speaker:If you want to be a candidate, including your private group chats, you need to submit that to HQ so they'll talk about keeping your circles safe.
Speaker:That is.
Speaker:It's garbage.
Speaker:I won't do it.
Speaker:I won't submit myself to that anymore.
Speaker:But if you want to be a candidate, you have to do that.
Speaker:Which means, you know, when we're unsafe like that and we behave in ways like that, it endangers all the people around us, right?
Speaker:You might be like, Oh, I've got nothing to hide.
Speaker:But you have no idea what your comrades.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:What their circumstances might be or what you're exposing them to.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:You know.
Speaker:So let's say, for example, like you post a spicy meme with the spicy corn, with a spicy caption, you know, that's your take for the day.
Speaker:Let's see.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Like it's public, it gets shared a couple thousand times.
Speaker:Somebody that sees it doesn't really like you for whatever reason or doesn't like the content because it, you know, it hits so it hits them right where it was meant to hit them for whatever reason.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You know, all they got to do is click on your page now.
Speaker:And if you have information about, you know, let's say your partners like, heaven forbid, your children, you know, why are we exposing them to that that kind of vitriol like.
Speaker:We were so fired up that we feel the need to make a post like this with, you know, some with content or, or, you know, or words that you've written or sentiments that you have that you know are going to upset the right wing.
Speaker:Why are we opening ourselves up to be targeted in personal lives, whether it's employment or the people around you?
Speaker:That's the main thing.
Speaker:Like there's a there's a real problem with clout.
Speaker:Clout chasing in all circles.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Like that's another thing that we should at some point touch on, whether it's are you chasing or are you doing activism?
Speaker:There's overlap for sure.
Speaker:But there's, you know.
Speaker:And that results in kind of like a bit of overexposure is our.
Speaker:Exposure without any kind of like, you know, concern for safety for the people around you.
Speaker:I don't want to have my partner or partners or, you know, people in my family, you know, approached at their workplaces or even socially.
Speaker:You know, because, you know, it's clear that due to social very easy social mapping, if my shit's all public, I don't want them questioned over my political my politics.
Speaker:I don't want them questioned over my beliefs.
Speaker:You know, or, heaven forbid, hurt or.
Speaker:Anything like anybody who doubts that that's a possibility has clearly not been doxxed before or had a friend doxxed for their political views.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And like and I think one of the daunting things about like, you know, and I believe that you've tried to steer, you've steered the conversation towards like what can we do?
Speaker:As opposed to just talking about like these concepts at a higher level?
Speaker:Is is that one of the things that I would do on my personal is I would at least look at my privacy settings immediately.
Speaker:Like, I use Facebook as an example a lot because they make it kind of a little bit.
Speaker:They don't tell you what your privacy settings are.
Speaker:So it's just kind of good practise to see like, is my friends less public?
Speaker:That's like one of the main things that you should never have public, in my opinion, because what's the point of it?
Speaker:Like, there's really no point being like, Oh, do I have any mutual friends with this person?
Speaker:While, you know, that's kind of okay, cool.
Speaker:You can see that.
Speaker:But like, does it really change whether or not you're gonna be friends with this person on Facebook, for example?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:I don't want people to see everybody who I'm friends with because that's just entirely thrown my entire community under the bus, whether they're even activists or not.
Speaker:That's like one of the main things.
Speaker:And make your profile not searchable from Google because that's I mean, if anybody wants to Google your name or any search engine in your name, if it's not visible, you're giving them so much information and power just by saying, yes, please index my entire social media profile on the the search engine, please.
Speaker:Like, why would like there's no need for that.
Speaker:So that's like one thing.
Speaker:What about photos?
Speaker:You know, it's hard to have a Facebook photo.
Speaker:I mean, you can put an anonymous photo up there, but I mean, are folks that are already out there and likely flagged?
Speaker:You know, people again, will use me as an example because there's a lot of people like me where our political views are known and our faces and our names.
Speaker:So would these steps help us at this point?
Speaker:They would help so many.
Speaker:They help our community.
Speaker:And that's the point.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It would help your community.
Speaker:And that's what it's all about.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Like if you're already out there and you're already targeted, I mean, again, the same applies.
Speaker:Like, why are we making it easier for them regardless of what information they do have?
Speaker:Why are we giving them more information?
Speaker:So for somebody who's out like that and you have a presence and a platform, I guess that's what the difference is.
Speaker:You have a platform or do you not have a platform?
Speaker:What are you using the platform for?
Speaker:So I think it's it's generally two very different measures that are under the same security umbrella for like do.
Speaker:Is your goal to grow your platform in the movement?
Speaker:So I shouldn't say your platform, but are you is your goal to use your platform to grow a movement or is your kind of online activity more of an individualistic kind of profile?
Speaker:So that's not.
Speaker:A very for everybody, right?
Speaker:That's very for everybody.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So some people's platform could be their own personal page that they make public posts.
Speaker:And I would assume that most of those people that are doing those kind of post war, you know, will have some kind of experience or I would hope that they would have some experience and understand that you're not going to sort of in the bus.
Speaker:So they I'm not going to talk ever about somebody else's actions that they'll speak for themselves and.
Speaker:At the same time keeping their communities safe by not giving out any information on their communities or saying so and so did this and it was awesome.
Speaker:That kind of thing.
Speaker:So differentiate between whether or not you're using a platform to grow movement or if you're just a single person that's politically active.
Speaker:What about any other tools outside of Facebook?
Speaker:What are there tools or apps that activists should definitely be using over other more commonly use like Google Docs is our favourite.
Speaker:Get off Google Docs entirely.
Speaker:Yeah, entirely.
Speaker:Get off.
Speaker:There are alternatives to Google Docs where you can have like shared, you know, real, live, real time updating on like a notepad that everybody's working on or word document or, you know, that kind of stuff.
Speaker:Any of that there are there are alternatives out there.
Speaker:Rise Up has a very basic kind of pad that secure end to end encryption.
Speaker:They also have secure email run by activists and anarchists like to complete anonymous and encryption.
Speaker:And there are more and more kind of like shared services that are not Google.
Speaker:Google is bad because, again, they're like Facebook.
Speaker:They will literally at the drop of a hat, divulge all information, stop using Gmail for activism.
Speaker:Again, all Google products are going to be highly surveilled at the drop of the dime.
Speaker:They just given up.
Speaker:They don't have any interest in not giving it up.
Speaker:So they have a vested interest in giving it up.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:This is capitalism with a capital C.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So I have.
Speaker:A lot of work to do, Noodle.
Speaker:It's okay.
Speaker:A lot of insecure.
Speaker:And it can and it can sound kind of daunting.
Speaker:And at first it is.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So I think one thing that we have to keep in mind that these are small, like I mentioned briefly on our talking about like there's for example, a two factor authentication.
Speaker:You know, a few years ago, a lot of people didn't want to have to deal with that because it just, you know, takes up a little bit more time and brainpower, which is true.
Speaker:It's valid.
Speaker:Same time, it's like now it's kind of accepted that we would use two factor authentication and how culture and society learnt and incorporate that into their normal kind of Air Force workflow is the amount of scams and fraud that was happening and people getting locked out of their accounts because somebody else's, I mean, and that causes people to adjust their behaviour.
Speaker:So let's bring that into more of a security thing.
Speaker:Once you've had experience of being on the receiving end, of having poor security and having that weaponized against you, you adjust your methods.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So my thing is, let's not wait for that if it hasn't happened to you is that there are small things that we can do.
Speaker:We can start with, you know, I talk about a lot of concepts, but I'll just briefly mentioned some of the things you can get a secure email.
Speaker:You can have a rise up email for free as well, or a protonmail, which is fully end to end encrypted.
Speaker:Those are like that's like the main thing.
Speaker:Just get yourself an encrypted email.
Speaker:Just even when you sign up for newsletters or that kind of stuff.
Speaker:Like Why are we giving Google?
Speaker:Who is, in my opinion, just as bad as the state of more information?
Speaker:Why are we signing up for everything in our lives with Google products and linking all of our social accounts?
Speaker:Like, that's just bad.
Speaker:It's bad practise and we can get out of it.
Speaker:To one another.
Speaker:You mean, you know, our late, our Twitter is linked to our Instagram, which gives out our email address and.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:So you can get like so.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:So here, here's the thing.
Speaker:Like as leftists, I'm sure that a lot of people have seen like play by play entire docs is on bad players on the right way as in, you know, you go on to a Twitter thread or something like that and we have, you know, the names of all their associates.
Speaker:We know what they did and, you know, going back to high school and that kind of shit where they work with live, you know, things that they've said, you can just apply that same methodology to people.
Speaker:You saw that on the left.
Speaker:I mean, I know how much information I can get with somebody that has a public facing profile or somebody that doesn't take security as a concern.
Speaker:And I have added a lot of information that was not necessarily known just from having somebody who was super violent at a protest.
Speaker:We take a photo over like, who is this?
Speaker:We need information.
Speaker:And lo and behold, a day later, using your network of people just doing stuff that anybody can do without any sort of like expertise, air quotes, it's like they've made it easy.
Speaker:And the same can be done for the left and has been done.
Speaker:And.
Speaker:Is getting done.
Speaker:So just kind of use that as a frame of reference for why do I need security?
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:You might say something that is I in this might not like online and then all of a sudden that person happens to be in with a bunch of far right players who are violent and they go to your profile and they give all that information to them.
Speaker:This is where we have lists and bad.
Speaker:That I imagine, noodle, that when you go into spaces knowing what you know.
Speaker:Mm hmm.
Speaker:Are you then relieved?
Speaker:Because when I think of all of the security precautions, I have concerns about accessibility.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:Any time we try to open a new a new platform, a new app, we lose a few folks, sometimes resistance to to to diving into new technology.
Speaker:So but it it it must also give a sense of security to the group, knowing that at least some precautions are being taken.
Speaker:That noodle you could come into a space that I've created and know that you didn't have to expose yourself or that, you know, the communications you had with me would be encrypted.
Speaker:So absolutely.
Speaker:Yeah, I just I guess not not and not everyone's going to be convinced that they need to to take these steps.
Speaker:So what do you do when you know not everyone you know, you're communicating, obviously on your end is encrypted and but you have to send it to their Gmail.
Speaker:And that's a very valid that's super valid.
Speaker:And we it's it's it's it's an issue for both accessibility issues and also security issues right there, kind of.
Speaker:Okay, so let's use that as a really good example of like let's say we've introduced a new app.
Speaker:You know, we're trying to get everybody in our circles on board with it.
Speaker:But there are somebody who doesn't have access to the same level of technology or the ah, the digital literacy required to, for security.
Speaker:I think it's beholden upon the community to make sure that everybody can access to it and be trained and be basically prepped on why we're doing this.
Speaker:And it's not about alienation, it's not about elitism, it's about community care.
Speaker:So reframing this whole why am I doing all this just to do this?
Speaker:Be like, okay, well, why do you do any community care and the accessibility issue that you have?
Speaker:Let's say, for example, I'm going to use an example of like, let's say something like a marshal group chat for an upcoming demo.
Speaker:Okay?
Speaker:This is an example that's kind of really easy to relate to.
Speaker:Let's just say there's an open call for marshals for an upcoming rally or protest that you're interested in attending.
Speaker:You've never done anything like that before, but you're interested.
Speaker:You want to do it, you want to do your part, and somebody asks you to, you know, kind of download signal to get on this.
Speaker:And you're like, Well, why do I need to, to use an app just to just to be part of this?
Speaker:In my opinion, it's our job to kind of like steer and explain that it's not about personal security, even when they say that it's, you know, I'm not scared, I'm angry, I want to participate.
Speaker:We just reframe as security culture, as community care, because we don't want to see any of us get locked up or targeted.
Speaker:And we will help you with this.
Speaker:And we try to introduce like technology roles, like none of us use smartphones before smartphones came out, you know, none of us use cloud services or cloud services came out.
Speaker:So it's just another learning curve.
Speaker:And introduced to your workflow.
Speaker:Like we understand how to install and download apps for the most part, right?
Speaker:Especially if the person that's saying that they don't want to download a new app when they already use all the different socials, you can say, okay, well, you know, honestly, like our priority when we do community organising is the community.
Speaker:So please just like leave that attitude at the door and there's a reason why we're doing this.
Speaker:And it's not because we want a gatekeeper alienate.
Speaker:It's because we actually care.
Speaker:We actually care about the safety of our people.
Speaker:And we don't want to have to be, you know, targeted because nobody's taking care of security or when there's any sort of like kind of vetting, like, oh, like, who is this person that now wants to do activism that might be deemed illegal by the state?
Speaker:You know, like we want to keep each other safe.
Speaker:It's, it's kind of like that and doesn't have to be alienating.
Speaker:It shouldn't be alienating.
Speaker:I should rephrase that.
Speaker:It should never be alienated.
Speaker:I think that's so important to deliberately go out of your way to frame it as community care as it is, but because it's not overtly.
Speaker:Such right.
Speaker:These are kind of personal security adjustments that we usually see as keeping our privacy safe.
Speaker:Privacy is very individualistic, so allowing the community to understand that, because as leftists, we are out there because we care about our community.
Speaker:So there's you know, if they are rejecting that kind of basis for doing what we need them to do, then that's a red flag in itself.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Because you mentioned a marshall a marshall chat.
Speaker:Well, usually you have to train marshals to for the first time.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So if we can train them to Marshall, we can train them to use signal if needed or I mean, yeah, that's I think like sometimes when we talk about these security measures, we, we forget that part, you know, that it's not just for us and that we need to explain it that way, even though it's a it's a list of things for you to do.
Speaker:You're doing that for the people around you.
Speaker:And as we become more hyper aware of like how, how much we expose our friends, I think it then it becomes obvious.
Speaker:So you talked about Marshall's.
Speaker:Let's let's talk about on the street a little bit.
Speaker:Eventually we'll all end up there.
Speaker:Am I right?
Speaker:So.
Speaker:How do we keep each other safe when we are at we're at demonstrations, not just, you know, to prevent against tear gas or things like that.
Speaker:I'm not no marshal training needed, but for post event, you know, what do we do so that we don't get in trouble after?
Speaker:Regardless, if we did something wrong because we know that that's not always the case.
Speaker:Are we are we approaching this from a sense of like as an organiser or as a participant?
Speaker:Well, I guess from an organiser, because it's our job to make sure participants know these things.
Speaker:You can't just ask people to come out to a march without providing them any kind of safety guidelines.
Speaker:So let's approach it from what an organiser must make sure folks know.
Speaker:You know, the buddy system would be an example, right, if you want to talk about that.
Speaker:Most people imagine that's just for children or when we get go out drinking or, you know, whatnot.
Speaker:We used to have it at raves when we go.
Speaker:And but I, I have not employed it on the streets.
Speaker:And I heard you talk about that.
Speaker:And, you know, I underlined it here because as an organiser, I felt really irresponsible for never implementing something like that.
Speaker:I won't make that mistake again.
Speaker:But what are other things that we should be saying to folks before they show up so that they are equipped and can protect themselves as best as possible?
Speaker:Good question.
Speaker:I do believe that it's in organisers responsibility to put that kind of messaging out there.
Speaker:So yeah, it's a great question.
Speaker:Some of the things that an organiser can do pre and post in my opinion is a just don't ever make sure it's something as simple as not making your guestlist public.
Speaker:A lot of people don't know.
Speaker:More and more people are doing that now, thankfully.
Speaker:But in the past you have very guestlist public.
Speaker:I mean, all it takes is for one person to click on their, you know, take screenshots of all the names for potential use later.
Speaker:So that's like step number one.
Speaker:Step number two is to.
Speaker:Well, I should preface this with that.
Speaker:Like every org has different needs.
Speaker:This is this is for my personal take on a local, even a local organised event as an organiser, so on, you know, just to make sure that safety is kept in mind and that goes beyond, you know, the whole tear gas thing and police violence thing as in maybe don't if you're going to be very local and very vocal and seen at a protest carrying spicy signs or yelling and heckling and that kind of thing and engaging, maybe try not to use your your real name and have your face shown just for, you know.
Speaker:Anybody can snap a pic and they have your name.
Speaker:And then that begins their easy search.
Speaker:If you have a public profile and your entire social network is mapped just to say and if you're posting pictures online, just don't have people's faces in it.
Speaker:So for all.
Speaker:The clout chasers.
Speaker:That's all the clout chasers.
Speaker:And it's just people that are also just not mindful of that.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Let's just say you go to a protest that ends up with a police action in terms of police violence.
Speaker:And you've been livestreaming all day nonlife or people's faces that just happened to be there, you know, in solidarity with the rally that had no intention of being docked there.
Speaker:Part of your community.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:If you're livestreaming and you're there, faces are front and centre.
Speaker:Are you getting their names and that kind of stuff on?
Speaker:Those people can be very easily targeted too.
Speaker:So just be mindful of the images that you post, the words that go with it.
Speaker:Like being like, oh yeah.
Speaker:Like, you know, I was there and this happened, you know, like, don't throw anybody under the bus or don't make it easier for them.
Speaker:Always keep community safety in mind and push that and we can trust each other safe.
Speaker:That kind of messaging, kind of a lot of people will look at an event posting and just be like, yes, I need to go to this, but then have zero concern for safety for themselves or others.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Especially newcomers or folks that, you know, we're not asking anything illegal of them.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So absolutely.
Speaker:Not.
Speaker:And it would be completely normal for them to think that they could just show up in their favourite slogan T-shirts and with their their baby strapped to their back and yeah.
Speaker:Ready, know, like outside of like, you know, do in Black BLOCK or what have you, which is, you know, for those that are in the know, just like in the practise of wearing all black male logos, showing covering face and just looking as one unit, an anonymous unit, you know, short of that, just, you know, don't wear a.
Speaker:Defining features on every tattoo.
Speaker:Showing tattoos will be one of the main identifiers on people again.
Speaker:I'm already hearing the voice.
Speaker:I'm not scared.
Speaker:I'm not scared.
Speaker:I just if anything, anybody who's listening to this, like having a hard time falling, if anything, your takeaway is, listen, it's not just about you and your own personal fear.
Speaker:It's again, community.
Speaker:A community.
Speaker:Community.
Speaker:All right.
Speaker:So if anything, you know, as an organiser that should be stressed like that's that's just my whole thing.
Speaker:A lot of organisers don't.
Speaker:And it's empowering to provide these tools and to teach people to save and to and to keep each other safe.
Speaker:Because most of the spaces that we create are hell bent on recreating our ideal community, right?
Speaker:If we think back to Occupy if anyone was there.
Speaker:I mean, that's what that was all about in that part, too, was recreating a space that was ideal to us.
Speaker:And for sure there was police infiltration.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:During that action that was very detrimental, in my opinion.
Speaker:So I totally understand, although it took a conversation with you, to be honest, to really have me second guess a lot of the approaches that I've been using or lack of security approaches that I've been using because.
Speaker:I was fearless for myself, and I don't think I.
Speaker:Thought I was enough trouble.
Speaker:I don't think I'm enough trouble for anybody.
Speaker:But you know, why wait to that point before you start implementing just some basic new habits, right?
Speaker:Yeah, just some new habits.
Speaker:And you're like, again, it's not changing the entire way that you live your life.
Speaker:Like, nobody's saying don't use email, don't use social media.
Speaker:I mean, that would be ideal.
Speaker:But then, you know, but we're not there.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So so the idea is, is that, you know, social media is a powerful tool one way or another.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:And we know this like we know it can be used for, you know, the proverbial binary good and evil.
Speaker:And we know this.
Speaker:So, I mean, we take we just have to take precautions and just don't make it easier.
Speaker:Just repeat that in your head.
Speaker:Don't make it easier for the opposition.
Speaker:Just don't make it.
Speaker:You know, of course, we can't be 100% secure in everything we do.
Speaker:And also there really is a truth to the matter that over, I guess like security culture for the sake of security culture can be very I'm not saying that that doesn't happen.
Speaker:You know, like there are people that will sometimes get too carried away with people not doing security culture as opposed to trying to encourage it and teach the importance and necessity and demonstration of love and care for your community through trying to teach security culture.
Speaker:So we don't want to go overboard either.
Speaker:Like, the last thing I want to do is have somebody who's really, like, new to activism or newer to community activism, I should say, you know, completely being turned off by, you know, coming into a space and not practising good security culture and then having everybody jump down their throats without explaining and, you know, and showing community care and love.
Speaker:It's one thing to say security culture is is care and love.
Speaker:And it's another thing to completely do the opposite of demonstrating that care us.
Speaker:So because, you know, yeah, in order to grow, we constantly have to invite strangers into our spaces and there has to be a level of trust.
Speaker:So, you know, it was really eye opening to like have these conversations with you because then I understand that's part of building the community as well is, you know, making sure that they are safe and that they know they're entering in a safe space.
Speaker:But, you know, that that you're also walk them through it.
Speaker:I do.
Speaker:I want to use you as an example, if you don't mind, because you do say, you know, you don't have to go through a loss of identity, but we call you noodle.
Speaker:Do you feel like you've lost a sense of identity and the level of security that you you have taken?
Speaker:And.
Speaker:You know, I, I was, you know, to be honest, I, I, I mean, the noodle and is not a separate entity to, to who I am.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:It's just a different part of myself that I've been able to compartmentalise.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So, so I use noodles in Alias and I think that first of all, we can get named by our communities or give ourselves names and who the fuck doesn't want to do that.
Speaker:I like we have holes anyway so to to speak to that.
Speaker:I don't feel like I've lost any of my identity because unfortunately or fortunately, I don't know.
Speaker:I guess depending on where the politics is like, right ideology is a system that was that we kind of, you know, believe in and live our principles to it.
Speaker:And part of mine includes security, culture and keeping my community safe.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Whether it's, you know, my my, you know, front facing persona where, you know, I have to go to work every day and that kind of thing.
Speaker:They go hand in hand with each other.
Speaker:I don't I don't.
Speaker:It's it's also just like a form of compartmentalisation, right?
Speaker:Like I have spent, you know, a few years trying to figure out that balance for myself because I don't want to go overboard with, you know, super strict security.
Speaker:And then I've completely alienated myself from from my online community as well.
Speaker:I don't want to.
Speaker:So I just chose to separate the two, whereas my politics are, you know, kind of limited to a, you know, an anonymous kind of thing, but it's not an anonymous person, you know what I mean to myself?
Speaker:Like, they're not different people.
Speaker:Well, that's good to hear because you talk about, you know, your online presence and during COVID sometimes.
Speaker:That's all we had.
Speaker:You know, I felt like my entire identity was through my online interactions with people, whether that be public facing or not.
Speaker:So I guess like, yeah, I as we open up, perhaps that's not such a big concern, but I guess people will still want to just find ways to connect and live vicariously through each other's lives or whatever it is that we get through that social media type of movement building and, you know, drawing people to you and to to your work.
Speaker:But it's nice to hear that you have found balance because.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, I worry about.
Speaker:Removing some of those elements and what that will be like and will I lose?
Speaker:Connexions But I think I'm understanding better that there's just even small steps that I can take that's within my personal comfort zone that will at least keep my immediate contacts safer.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:And that kind of going going dark.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Because we can't be completely underground either, that no one can design flag.
Speaker:And anybody who's doing that already understands the risks.
Speaker:I would hope anybody who's chosen to go completely underground in their activism and organising understands the implications of that to their personal lives.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So, you know, unless you're planning on doing that, there's no reason to completely go underground.
Speaker:So because that is a red flag, as you as you've mentioned.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So you talked about keeping things separate, not siloed.
Speaker:You use the word I can't possibly.
Speaker:Compartmentalisation don't.
Speaker:Make you do it.
Speaker:You talked about how you can do it as an individual.
Speaker:Yeah, but we can do that as organisations too.
Speaker:Even 100% basic grassroots of us rabble rousers.
Speaker:Yeah, that is actually, in my opinion, a little bit more important.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So, you know, the I guess maybe I should say the the status quo is not really introduced, in my opinion, introduced so much in the individuals, but they're introduced.
Speaker:They're interested in the organisation power.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So I think Compartmentalisation is arguably way more important for organisations.
Speaker:So and how do we do that?
Speaker:So that would depend on the org.
Speaker:I don't mean to say that flippantly.
Speaker:I would just you know, there is very much, you know, like you touched on on NBC asking for her to vet social media like that.
Speaker:That is like I mean, that's one way to do it.
Speaker:So what I'm a little confused about what are they not looking for?
Speaker:What are they looking for?
Speaker:But I mean, a way for in order to do that is to have different arms of the org.
Speaker:I guess you have your front facing and then you just have your internal, you know, kind of ages affinity groups that understand the needs that some things need to be a little less public facing.
Speaker:And they can compartmentalise by using only secure internal comms and not.
Speaker:And Compartmentalisation also includes just because we're in the same hall doesn't mean that we have all of the same relevant information to what we're doing.
Speaker:You can separate that kind of thing.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:For example, if somebody is doing something a little bit spicy as part of your heart or there's something that's planned that might be deemed illegal in the eyes of the law, then there's no reason for everybody in that or to be part of the planning if they're not doing if they're not partaking or have really no kind of relevancy to that action.
Speaker:So Compartmentalisation would be, okay, let's break off into a subgroup and keep this between us.
Speaker:That's not supposed to be alienating.
Speaker:That is supposed to be security.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So it's almost limiting culpability.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You're not saying you're not in this new chat because you we don't trust you.
Speaker:It's because you don't need to be and we're unnecessarily exposing you.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:When you don't need to be.
Speaker:And then we are all exposed if we keep it on this channel.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Things like that.
Speaker:It's just a.
Speaker:Delicate.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Like, how do you make people feel like they're left out?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:There needs to be that conversation as to, you know, why it's important, why there's a locked channel, what is, you know, generally what is happening there as opposed to just not being allowed in it.
Speaker:And these are internal, important internal organisation conversations that I think have a broader social implication of why do we feel the need to know everything about every part of everything and partake in it?
Speaker:Like, is that an ego thing?
Speaker:Is that a.
Speaker:Some of us are type-A personalities, right?
Speaker:We got to micromanage everything I do.
Speaker:And I have that personality right, like I do.
Speaker:But again, it's a learnt behaviour.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Once I started to understand that, you know what?
Speaker:Like you literally are not involved in the planning of this.
Speaker:You don't?
Speaker:I'm speaking for myself.
Speaker:And you don't actually need to know any of that.
Speaker:Sure you want to know?
Speaker:Because we all love tea, right?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Like.
Speaker:But, like, if I happen to get picked up for something unrelated, or if police seised my devices and I wasn't even in that, then then what would have been the point?
Speaker:Beyond my own curiosity, I need to know.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Again, these are internal conversations that need to have.
Speaker:But how is it structured?
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:Like, does everybody you know, can we all agree on that?
Speaker:This is about community care.
Speaker:So again, it's different for every ARG.
Speaker:I would say, like I definitely been in spaces where security has been a concern but not a forefront.
Speaker:And then I've been in many, many more spaces where there is zero.
Speaker:Well, I guess we do some things inherently like keeping certain things separate and, you know, but not in a very productive way.
Speaker:Now that I'm looking back at it and I think I've not done a good job in terms of also explaining, you know, the levels of secrecy that might exist in organising and whatnot.
Speaker:So definitely, I feel like, you know, when we have meetings on comms, when we have meetings on events like this, there needs to be a security discussion from the onset and folks kind of responsible for that, you know, to keep it up to date and to onboard people to an extent.
Speaker:And I think that might be missed in quite a few circles.
Speaker:So I'm hoping people are listening to this and kind of understanding it's time to take a look at our practises.
Speaker:A second look.
Speaker:Yeah, that's a, that's a really good main takeaway and it's not like this is so, so nowadays in the age of the internet there's way more information available to all of us and data on, you know, on historical precedents even before the advent of the computer and the Internet, security was a problem in all, you know, political activism circles, whether it's through infiltration or doxing or guilty by association.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So it's it's not like this has come out of a vacuum.
Speaker:Like, this is this is has always been there, but has been a lot more of a very overt problem now with the advent of the Internet.
Speaker:So I guess like the main like again, I just want to stress that this should not be alienating and there are ways to implement this right off the ground.
Speaker:Like, like you're saying comms team on the court, like does the comms team actually understand the communication tools that they're used?
Speaker:Do they understand how that data is used, how exposed it is?
Speaker:And it's also the comms team's job, in my opinion, to now bring this knowledge and information for the rest of the org.
Speaker:And then you can all deal with it in terms of like, you know, as an art, like let's make decisions on this based on community care as opposed to effort and other considerations.
Speaker:The main consideration should be community care.
Speaker:Because yeah, like we are, like you said, we're going out there and we're definitely challenging the state, we're challenging capital.
Speaker:And if you haven't met resistance yet, you likely will.
Speaker:You know.
Speaker:If you have a limited time set, maybe you're not actually against the status quo.
Speaker:Maybe you're actually on the side of the staff going to step up.
Speaker:Your game a little bit if you haven't even had a community liaison officer.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:Absolutely.
Speaker:That's the marker of progress.
Speaker:Well, you know.
Speaker:Yeah, same with when you get docks or, you know, folks, your enemies are extremely upset with you.
Speaker:It is almost a badge of honour to know that you are at least on the right path.
Speaker:It's totally like if like in some ways, right?
Speaker:Like we don't want to go too far overboard for the sake of tourism, which is also a problem in white spaces.
Speaker:Very much so.
Speaker:But that's another subject.
Speaker:But we have like I'm not white, but it's a thing.
Speaker:So the there's like the whole thing of like shit.
Speaker:What was my point there?
Speaker:Beyond dunking on white people and martyrs.
Speaker:So that's always fun, though.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:Obviously we don't want that increased surveillance and action on the doomsday.
Speaker:We don't want that to happen.
Speaker:But the fact of the matter is, if you slightly challenge the narrative at all, you will get that pushback.
Speaker:So, you know, like no like all protests are palatable if if the systems of power agree with you, like essentially any protest that the systems of power don't agree with is not okay for the state.
Speaker:And if we're not disrupting, I mean, what are we doing?
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I mean, we talked earlier.
Speaker:There are there are points to doing the.
Speaker:But I mean.
Speaker:Yes, if we're not disrupting, what are we doing?
Speaker:If we're not challenging, then what are we protest like?
Speaker:You know, it's a protest because it's a protest against, you know, the powers that be, whatever they may be.
Speaker:So, like, despite what you saw in Ottawa, folks, you cannot just simply go running into the streets, you know, setting up hot tubs and live streaming your actions for us.
Speaker:There will certainly be repercussions.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Just ask any land defender, you know, any land defender.
Speaker:You know that disproportionate response.
Speaker:You know, and that was enraging for a lot of people on the left and especially our indigenous comrades that have to see the kid gloves.
Speaker:Again, I'm not this isn't in support of saying we needed the police to crack down or we wanted the police crackdown.
Speaker:We're just pointing out the gross hypocrisy and police and state response to the right wing versus anything deemed left.
Speaker:Again, it's not saying, oh, I wish the police had cracked down on Ottawa because I don't.
Speaker:I'm just saying there's a gross hypocrisy there.
Speaker:So, yeah, that that would explain the police responses that most of them were on the side of them and realised that they weren't actually disrupting capital.
Speaker:So yeah, it's not a signal that all of a sudden the police have condoned, you know, disruption or blockades of any sort.
Speaker:No.
Speaker:If anything, it's an indictment on the state and the need for more or less protesting.
Speaker:So because we all know what that would have been like had that protest been left leaning of any kind.
Speaker:We know what the response would have been.
Speaker:Oh, totally.
Speaker:And to that point, we didn't touch on it.
Speaker:And we we totally should.
Speaker:So I'd be remiss not to in our spaces, particularly when we take to the streets, you know, there's a disproportionate threat to our black, our indigenous and our other racialized comrades.
Speaker:Mm hmm.
Speaker:Any advice on how organisers may be?
Speaker:Just a couple of tips that we can.
Speaker:It's not just enough to recognise that that threat is increased for racialized comrades, but what can we do to mitigate that?
Speaker:I know you know, I've been to actions where a white shield, you know, if it's logistically possible to have white people on the outside of the unit that you've created.
Speaker:But any other.
Speaker:I kind of want to touch on that a little bit, if that's okay.
Speaker:The whole idea of the white shield is that okay?
Speaker:It's a little bit of a tangent, but again, this goes hand-in-hand with community care.
Speaker:You know, as somebody who's, you know, considered a model minority by, you know, society or whatever.
Speaker:I mean, he's clearly not white, but, you know, like so with the whole, like, white bodies to different and what have you, you can also run into an issue of of agency, you know, and again, the whole white saviour thing without any sort of kind of community mindfulness of what we're actually doing there or what we're trying to accomplish there.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So so, you know, it's not that I disagree with, you know, people with less to lose, like in terms of, you know, the historical oppression to the front bearing the brunt of a lot of police violence.
Speaker:It goes beyond that.
Speaker:It goes that mentality needs to be carried forth in day to day life, not just as an act of protest that's being busted up by the cops.
Speaker:That includes, you know, using your kind of privilege to educate as opposed to gotcha moments where white people love their gotcha moments, where as opposed to doing actual education and organisation.
Speaker:And I would say that's not even a priority.
Speaker:The priority should be prioritising, understanding what you're doing on that day of that protest, what it's about, and asking how you can contribute, asking the organisers, how you can contribute best as opposed to I'm going to do this because I think this is the best idea to do.
Speaker:Just for my work or Vanguard at the front for all the feedback.
Speaker:Right?
Speaker:I think that kind of imagery.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So check in with the organisers at the end of the day, you know if we believe in non-hierarchical organiser.
Speaker:Causation and activism, then that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't people to check in with.
Speaker:You know, this is this is the day that they're putting on for for the community and to help in organising keep people safe.
Speaker:Let's check in with the organisers and see what they want.
Speaker:If I am at a demo an an action that's run by all white people on behalf of, you know, another group in society, then first of all, I'm going to be really sus in the first place.
Speaker:So you should be.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So, you know, I would always check in with organisers and see what they want in terms of what they can do to help marginalised and oppressed voices.
Speaker:You know, on the day of and moving forward again it's checking in, right?
Speaker:That's not to say this is kind of a sticky subject and I don't know if or if this should go in or not.
Speaker:I don't know.
Speaker:But just as a personal just because somebody is, you know, just if you as a white person, just because somebody is saying to do something at a protest that's not white doesn't mean that there automat you should automatically again check in with organisers.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:You have a problem of of of mixed communication, a protest when they get spicy and again always defer to organisers when possible.
Speaker:And so that's a note for organisers to like be visible.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So the onus is on the organisers at that point.
Speaker:In my opinion, if they're not communicating, if they're not taking any security precautions, if they haven't spent the time to make sure that they're ready to educate before leading up to and during and afterwards, then, you know, it's not doing a real good job of community care in the first place.
Speaker:So again, that doesn't mean that all organisers are on the ball, it just means that it should be the job of organisers, in my opinion, to be on the ball.
Speaker:And that's progress too.
Speaker:That's that's I mean, spreading this amongst our community because I mean, you've taught me so much, so there's so much more that I will now do as an organiser that I would not have done before.
Speaker:And so now I take the onus on me obviously through via this podcast, we will help people hear some of the things that they need to do.
Speaker:But in my spaces, you know, I commit to having those discussions and coming to decisions to make the community safer.
Speaker:So, you know, I hope other folks do the same in their circles.
Speaker:And just going to wrap up here, but I want to give you the last word, obviously.
Speaker:Is there anything I did not ask you or something that you would like to share with people listening?
Speaker:Tangent or no tangent.
Speaker:There there might be.
Speaker:I don't have anything off the top of my head that jumps out.
Speaker:I just I just want to really stress that again, it can be really daunting to understand and to come to a lot of these realisations.
Speaker:And again, this stuff, this kind of practise and attitude and kind of ways of approaching out activism again doesn't come out of a vacuum, it's a learnt thing and you kind of nailed it there with its progress, not perfection as with anything else, and exercising and activism and in our daily lives.
Speaker:Like we should really, really try to limit the amount of, of ego that we bring into spaces.
Speaker:And so if you happen to run and you want to join in or have joined in or a movement, you know, and a lot of what goes against your daily, just just take a moment before reacting and just like let yourself with it and be like, okay, why are they asking this all to straight up ask and be open to other people's security and feelings of safety.
Speaker:You know, that you don't have are valid, right?
Speaker:So from experience.
Speaker:So I would just say if somebody is asking for more security or requesting that you take more precautions, it's not personal against you.
Speaker:There's obviously a reason that they're asking for it and it's important.
Speaker:And who doesn't want to learn new stuff?
Speaker:You know, where where you know, progress, not perfection.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So I like that.
Speaker:Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker:Noodle again, I've learnt so much.
Speaker:I hope the listeners have learnt a lot.
Speaker:Can I add one more tangent?
Speaker:I'm so sorry.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:Yes, please do.
Speaker:It's just like one more thing.
Speaker:I'm just reflecting on some of the things that I talked about in this conversation that I think I didn't cover some of the details that I wanted to, and then I went on to a lot of other stuff.
Speaker:But that's okay.
Speaker:That's natural.
Speaker:Supposed to be a national conversation, right?
Speaker:And it was.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:And I just I think I just want to touch again on the fact that.
Speaker:You know, I talked a little bit about you know, I didn't talk specifically much about different apps and direct things and, you know, tools that we can use, which, you know, there's a lot of information out there.
Speaker:And I'd be happy to, you know, maybe answer some text if there are any afterwards or anything and provide some kind of resources and that kind of thing.
Speaker:But I guess the main thing is, is that all of these tools and tech and apps and security practises are only as good as the human aspect of it.
Speaker:Right.
Speaker:So there's no point in me using all of the tools like, let's say secure app messaging apps, secure email, secure documents.
Speaker:If the personal secure if like the personal practise of security is not practised in your day to day life, as in taking screenshots of these secure chat rooms for sending them to people who aren't in them in those groups, you know, sending screenshots with people's names visible or a screenshot of an email that is supposed to be secure.
Speaker:Like all those security breaches that we see in activist circles, a lot of them are not actual like technology infiltration.
Speaker:It's human infiltration or bad security practise.
Speaker:So again, all the tools that we use just similar to any other kind of of of activity, whether it's driving or, you know, making your art or playing an instrument, it's only as good as the person who is trying to operate it.
Speaker:So keeping in mind that apps themselves aren't good enough, we just need to keep security in mind as a community going forward in the way that we interact in terms of political organising.
Speaker:That's all, I guess.
Speaker:Yeah, that's yeah.
Speaker:You can use signal but still be a complete security breach.
Speaker:Signal is not the answer to everything.
Speaker:Well, like you said, like nothing's 100%.
Speaker:And that that human factor, I guess my thought is the best way to mitigate that is the conversations that you talked about earlier, you know, making it understood that this is community care and that we are built on on trust.
Speaker:And so this is why we need you to behave this way and not breach the agreements that we've made, not take screenshots and and practise your security for us as a collective.
Speaker:But so, yeah, I think.
Speaker:That's kind of.
Speaker:My main takeaway is that there's a lot changing.
Speaker:Our minds.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker:Because we could go on an integrity of like how to use signal.
Speaker:There's some literature out there like, you know, it's called Signal Fails is one of them that comes up two that comes to mind and you know, like different apps and different ways and compartmentalisation that kind of stuff.
Speaker:But again, that technical knowledge like I'm not an expert on tech or anything really.
Speaker:I'm just, you know, somebody who's been doing this for a while and, you know, has learnt a lot through it and grown as a person too.
Speaker:So all these like kind of concepts, this making grow as a person in terms of the way I interact with my community and view things.
Speaker:And that's the main takeaway.
Speaker:It's just like, what are we doing here and how are we approaching activism in the first place?
Speaker:Is it individualistic or is it genuinely communications?
Speaker:That was perfect Noodle.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:I could have picked Noodles Brain there for hours.
Speaker:Obviously there's plenty of more tools out there.
Speaker:Noodle just did not have time to share them all.
Speaker:I will post up some links after the episode airs on our Twitter account.
Speaker:The biggest takeaway from all that, I think, though, is that we do what we can to keep each other safe out there as we disrupt capitalism and smash the status quo.
Speaker:Be sure to listen in next Thursday as we keep learning from each other on all the diverse ways that we reach our communities, fight back against oppressive forces, and start to realise our collective power.
Speaker:Like in all things that we do, there is a team behind blueprints of disruption.
Speaker:I want to give a big thank you to our producers, Santiago.
Speaker:Hello, Quinn, Tero and Jay Woodruff.
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Speaker:So if you know of any work that should be amplified or want to provide feedback of our show, please reach out to us on Twitter at BP of Disruption.
