United Against Genocide: Name It. Stop It. Sanction It.
What will it take for the Canadian government to recognize what is happening in Palestine as a genocide? This growing coalition aims to find out.
Three members of United Against Genocide join the studio to explain why that key word matters so much, and what they're doing to add to the pressure politicians must be feeling at this point. They share what its been like meeting with high ranking officials, and what their expectations of new PM Carney were heading into the G7.
They openly challenge the notion that this is simply a humanitarian crisis that needs better handling or funding by exposing the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation's role in this horrific stage of the genocide.
Guests:
- Dr. Ben Thompson, healthcare provider and cofounder of Eyewitness Gaza. Ben has visited Gaza almost annually since 2012 and been suspended from his job for advocating for peace.
- Dorotea Gucciardo, Ph.D, Director of Development for GLIA, and cofounder of Eyewitness Gaza.
- Alex Neve, International Human Rights lawyer and former Secretary General for Amnesty International Canada.
Hosted by: Jessa McLean
Call to Action: Tell PM Carney to Stop Covering for Israel (PETITION)
Related Episodes:
- Courage Needed to Advocate for Palestine (October 6, 2023) with activist and scholar Ghada Sasa on navigating Parliament Hill for Palestine.
- Disrupting Politics (December 20, 2023) with Dimitri Lascaris. A discussion on the role our politicians play and how they can be held accountable.
More Resources:
- UN Resolutions on Genocide Prevention
- CBC: Dr. Ben Thompon Doxxed and Suspended for Palestinian Posts
- Israeli, US-backed Gaza aid group must end, say 130 charities
- Media Advisory: United Against Genocide
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Transcript
Greetings friends, my name is Jessamah Clayne and this is Blueprints of Disruption, a podcast
Speaker:dedicated to those going up against systems of oppression in a variety of ways. This week's
Speaker:episode is no exception. We've got three incredible guests from United Against Genocide here to
Speaker:talk about their push to get the Canadian government to name it, stop it, and sanction it. The IT
Speaker:is genocide. No other word will do in this moment, and our guests will explain why. You'll hear
Speaker:what it's been like meeting with our previous Prime Minister's office, and what their expectations
Speaker:were of Carney, particularly at the G7. What are the excuses the powerful are giving out
Speaker:behind closed doors? Why such hesitation to call it like it is? Even with all the testimony
Speaker:and information in front of them, Those are not open-ended questions. They'll be answered
Speaker:throughout the episode. But in large part, the Palestinian exception explains it all. Before
Speaker:we get into all of that, let's have the guests introduce themselves. And remember, you can
Speaker:find out more about them and their work in the show notes. Here is United Against Genocide.
Speaker:I'm Dorothea Gucciardo, and I'm the Director of Development for GLIA, which is a Canadian
Speaker:medical solidarity organization that has been operating out of Gaza. since 2012. I'm also
Speaker:the co-founder of Eyewitness Gaza. Hi, I'm Ben Thompson. I'm a healthcare provider in
Speaker:the Toronto area. I've been doing humanitarian work in a variety of conflict regions since
Speaker:about 2012. That has brought me to Gaza probably every year a couple times since about that
Speaker:time. I'm also the co-founder of Eyewitness Gaza. and I run an international medical education
Speaker:charity that includes training people from the occupied territories of Palestine. Hi there,
Speaker:I'm Alex Neve. I'm an international human rights lawyer. I am a senior fellow at the Graduate
Speaker:School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Ottawa and also a professor
Speaker:of international human rights law at both the University of Ottawa and Dalhousie University.
Speaker:Previously, I was the Secretary General of Amnesty International Canada for 21 years.
Speaker:And safe to say over the entirety of those 21 years, there of course were many, many chapters
Speaker:of campaigning and advocacy regarding grave human rights concerns in Gaza, in the West
Speaker:Bank, in Lebanon, in Israel itself. And obviously the current chapter is by far the worst of
Speaker:anything we've seen, but certainly in many respects, a lot of what we're dealing with is not new.
Speaker:I was looking at the guest list, you know, typing it out and looking at your backgrounds, and
Speaker:I'll admit I felt a little overwhelmed. think each of you I could have talked to you for
Speaker:hours about your experience and what you're currently doing to put pressures on the Canadian
Speaker:government. to take a stand on Israel. We'll talk about your three demands specifically,
Speaker:but is there one of you that wants to speak to the coalition that formed that brought you
Speaker:here and has brought you to pressers and other events united against genocide and how that
Speaker:formed? I'm recalling many of us, and many of us who are in fact listening to this podcast,
Speaker:will of course have been to a protest. And what I've remarked over the last almost now 24 months
Speaker:is that when we've been to a protest, it's such a remarkably diverse group of people, whether
Speaker:it's independent Jewish voices, Orthodox Jews, Black Canadians, Albanians, Indigenous Canadians,
Speaker:Palestinians, and of course, many people who look like me, know, Canadian settlers. So the
Speaker:diversity of that group is unified. in many things. We're unified basically in that we
Speaker:want Palestine to have a state, but that we want this genocide to end. And what I've noticed,
Speaker:like many different types of advocacy movements, there are intermittent actions with small
Speaker:groups of people, but to get a sense of how integrated it is and how diverse and broad
Speaker:the coalition is that we are opposed to what our Canadian government is doing. We are absolutely
Speaker:disgusted that this genocide has been allowed to continue now for almost two years. And
Speaker:so really we brought together some of the most powerful voices to tell the Canadian government,
Speaker:this is not acceptable and it needs to stop. And so thinking about who those organizations
Speaker:are, I I think it's pretty clear that there are a broad support for our Palestinian state
Speaker:and a broad support against genocide amongst Jewish community groups, Muslim community groups,
Speaker:broad groups of healthcare professionals, broad groups of lawyers who support human rights
Speaker:and international humanitarian law. And bringing those groups together for the purposes of saying,
Speaker:this needs to stop and the Canadian government needs to do more and here's some things that
Speaker:you can be doing. We thought that would be a very powerful message, one that we could build
Speaker:on moving forward. And if I may just add an extra piece to that, it's, I think, behind
Speaker:my involvement in the coalition, in the press conference, and even today, behind me is
Speaker:an open letter initiative that brought together over 500 leading Canadian law professors,
Speaker:academics, former ambassadors, including three former Canadian ambassadors to the United Nations.
Speaker:the heads of three of Canada's major trade unions, all sorts of faith groups, human rights
Speaker:groups, humanitarian organizations, and similar to what Ben is describing, the catalyst for
Speaker:that was recognizing that there was a lot of disparate action happening in all of those
Speaker:various corners, but it was time for people to come together and adjoined up. statement
Speaker:to the Canadian government, to the federal government saying we are unified against genocide. And
Speaker:for some of those individuals, this was actually the first time, some of the prominent voices,
Speaker:it was the first time they had publicly stated that they were of the view that what was happening
Speaker:in Gaza was genocide. So I think there's a lot of coming together behind this. And that's
Speaker:a really good point, Alex, because You know, in November of 2023, and then again in December
Speaker:2023, and then early in 2024, a group of healthcare providers in Canada met with the prime minister's
Speaker:office. And we said, even at that time, this is genocide. Here's some things that you need
Speaker:to do immediately to end this. And each and every time we were ignored, each and every
Speaker:time it was healthcare providers who came, sometimes we went with... We actually went with the head
Speaker:of MSF Canada at one of those particular meetings. And despite those meetings, it was basically
Speaker:healthcare providers. So it was very clear that healthcare providers alone were not going to
Speaker:be pushing enough. This is despite the fact that Eyewitness Gaza represents every single
Speaker:healthcare provider who's been to Gaza during the genocide. All of us agree that this is
Speaker:genocide. And despite what should be considered a pretty powerful message for that. that has
Speaker:not been enough despite multiple meetings with the prime minister's office. And so something
Speaker:more needed to be done. And I think bringing together multiple groups was what was inevitably
Speaker:going to be the next step. You talk about bearing witness and healthcare workers, I think, and
Speaker:correct me if I'm wrong, it's important to note that they're one of the only professions that
Speaker:can move in and out of Gaza. We normally depend on journalism. We have very few Palestinian
Speaker:journalists left. but we are still getting images there. But obviously everything is done to
Speaker:discredit the words of Palestinians over and over again, right? That the Palestinian exception
Speaker:exists on absolutely every level. So one would think, you know, based on the criteria that
Speaker:most settlers have that settler Canadian healthcare workers traveled into the region witnessed
Speaker:this. spoke with international lawyers, you know, are versed in what the criteria for genocide
Speaker:are, come back and still our government and many, many, others that could make a difference
Speaker:are hesitant to call it a genocide. And that is one of the main demands of United Against
Speaker:Genocide, right? The slogan there I saw was, name it, stop it, sanction it. And let's just
Speaker:dig into why naming it a genocide is such a crux for you. You know, like we can't just
Speaker:be like, fine, call it whatever it is. It's horrible. We have to stop it. Why is it important
Speaker:it be labeled a genocide? It's important to label what's happening in Gaza a genocide because
Speaker:language matters, right? Language is what shapes law. It's what shapes history. It's what shapes
Speaker:morality. And it also what shapes and will inform action. So by labeling what's happening
Speaker:inside Gaza genocide, and not just Gaza, mind you, all of occupied Palestine, is important
Speaker:because it provides the blueprint for what the Canadian government must do in response. And
Speaker:the Canadian government has a legal obligation to act. And I'm going to let Alex speak to
Speaker:that. But just before that, there's a couple of important things to consider because what
Speaker:we're seeing as you've noted, is systemic denial that this is what's happening, right? That
Speaker:there's not a genocide in Gaza. When in fact, have every eyewitness who has come and gone
Speaker:noted that yes, there are patterns of genocide. And so naming it genocide confronts the core
Speaker:of the crime, that it isn't just the killing that's happening, but it's the intent to destroy
Speaker:a people. And that's what we're all seeing is a systemic destruction of life inside Gaza.
Speaker:And the other reason why it's really important to name it a genocide is because it then centers
Speaker:the victims' experiences. Yes, we have these international healthcare workers going in and
Speaker:providing their witness to what they're seeing. And we're fighting against our government
Speaker:and pushing them to acknowledge this. Because once they do, calling it a genocide honors
Speaker:the reality of the lived experience of Palestinians. in the occupied Palestinian territories. When
Speaker:we consider that one of the goals of genocide is to destroy a culture, it's to eliminate
Speaker:that culture, it's to eliminate identity, to eliminate its history, but also its future.
Speaker:And so calling it a genocide validates those experiences and it brings that identity back
Speaker:to the surface. So we can talk about what it means to be. Palestinian and the Palestinians
Speaker:themselves can tell us what that means and where the future should go for them. And for us,
Speaker:as part of this coalition that is unified against genocide, we want to mobilize political pressure
Speaker:within Canada, but we also want to join that global movement because it isn't just Canadians.
Speaker:There is a global movement that is building to tell the international governments to tell
Speaker:the international community that what is happening is intolerable and it must stop. So for all
Speaker:of these reasons, it's really important that that is named accurately, that it is named
Speaker:genocide. And if you don't mind, I'm going to pass it over to Alex to talk a little bit about
Speaker:the legal obligations that the Canadian government has once it calls it a genocide. Thanks,
Speaker:Taye. And I think you've you've stated powerfully and beautifully why this matters so much. And
Speaker:I guess to build on it, you began by saying this matters because language matters. And
Speaker:I guess I would build on that by saying, and law matters. you know, take us, you know, just
Speaker:to go back to a moment, for a moment to 1948, which is, of course, when the United Nations
Speaker:came together, drafted and adopted the Genocide Convention. one of the very first pieces of
Speaker:international lawmaking that the world undertook following World War II. It was an incredible
Speaker:moment and the world came together in this powerful promise to humanity, which was captured in
Speaker:two words, which I think carry both an evocative kind of moral sense, but a very clear legal
Speaker:sense as well. And it was never again. And that was because we had finally admitted that
Speaker:what genocide entails is at a level of evil and terror and beyond imagination such that
Speaker:we simply have to have the tools to banish it. And here we are, almost 80 years later,
Speaker:we cannot live up to that. that moral promise and that legal obligation to stop genocide
Speaker:if we won't acknowledge it when it's happening. It is the first step to ensuring that all
Speaker:that is supposed to flow legally to and let's not forget that the Genocide Convention, I
Speaker:think very, very notably carries a very powerful name. It is the Convention on the Prevention
Speaker:and punishment of the crime of genocide. Prevention comes first. And that's a bit unusual in terms
Speaker:of international human rights treaties. You don't see that real focus on prevention right
Speaker:there in the title. But we are not going to get down that road at all if we have our own
Speaker:government and other governments around the world playing games, trying to, you know,
Speaker:whether it's just complete denial or legal semantics. and refusing to name it what it
Speaker:is. And that's why it's so important, I think, for such an incredible coalition of groups,
Speaker:healthcare workers who are there on the ground seeing it happen in real time, legal experts
Speaker:who have spent their entire professional lives, know, engaging in international court cases
Speaker:in the Hague, et cetera, dealing with issues around genocide, and all have come together.
Speaker:to say this is that moment, there is no question. The evidence tells us, told us months and months
Speaker:and months ago, almost in the very first days of October the 7th, that that is what is
Speaker:happening. And now all of the obligations and especially around that word prevention, the
Speaker:international legal framework isn't about, you know, once the final body has been thrown on
Speaker:the heap. that then the world does something about acknowledging it was genocide and deals
Speaker:with it after the fact, it is about preventing it. And that is why the first of our three
Speaker:demands, or the second of our three demands, stop it, is also so crucial. And I think
Speaker:there's an angle here as humanitarian workers, whether that's as physicians or nurses or
Speaker:non-healthcare related humanitarian workers, all of us in the very beginning of our training
Speaker:to do humanitarian work would have taken a course in which the humanitarian principles would
Speaker:have been probably, if not the first, one of the first things that we learned. And what
Speaker:that says is that our actions as humanitarians and actions of delivering humanitarian aid
Speaker:needs to be done with humanity, independence, impartiality, and neutrality. And that's why
Speaker:it's so critical that when healthcare workers do speak up. It is after massive consideration
Speaker:and contemplation of the impact that it might have. And I think there's an excellent historical
Speaker:example of this. During the Rwandan genocide, the head of Medecins Sans Frontières for France
Speaker:had returned from some time in Rwanda, during which time he witnessed genocidal acts. and
Speaker:what he described internally with MSF was described as genocide, but they really debated
Speaker:internally quite heavily about whether they wanted to publicly use that word. And yet
Speaker:when the interview took place in the French press with the head of Mid-Centenance Frontier
Speaker:France, he used the word genocide, and it was the first time that it was actually used within
Speaker:the public sphere. And within a week, the French government had met within parliament
Speaker:to talk about withdrawing weapon sales to Rwandan parties that were committing genocide. And
Speaker:public opinion in France shifted significantly, which made the political cost of supporting
Speaker:genocide even heavier. I mean, it is important. It's very, very important. And as a healthcare
Speaker:provider, you know, I don't use the word genocide without careful consideration of the fact that
Speaker:it is something that has a very clear definition within international humanitarian law with
Speaker:the 1948 Genocide Convention that Alex has discussed. don't take this willy-nilly. This is something
Speaker:that's obviously very serious. And the other thing I think we need to consider is where
Speaker:are we? We're in Canada, right? I was born in Canada. Canada is a settler colonial entity
Speaker:whose creation is essentially established by committing a genocide against Indigenous people.
Speaker:One that is ongoing and today manifested through the legal and prison system by inferior housing,
Speaker:by perpetuating horrific conditions in Indigenous communities, many of which are still without
Speaker:clean water, and by the government saying one thing and doing another. So when Prime Minister
Speaker:Trudeau committed to reconciliation, then when we look at the Truth and Reconciliation Commission
Speaker:of Canada, 94 recommendations and literally no progress on any of them in several years.
Speaker:The majority are still unanswered. So Canada has had a shameful commitment to perpetuate
Speaker:genocide, not just in Canada with Indigenous people, but now also abroad. in Gaza. And as
Speaker:someone born in Canada, I'm ashamed of this. And I feel it is my responsibility to speak
Speaker:out about this. You've given two very powerful reasons, like collectively, why the Canadian
Speaker:government is so hesitant to use the language of genocide. You've talked about Trudeau. How
Speaker:hopeful, especially with the most recent developments out of Carney's mouth. new prime minister here
Speaker:in Canada and his belief that any new Palestinian state, which you folks mentioned was one of
Speaker:the points of agreement that exists amongst most people, must be a Zionist one. Does anybody
Speaker:have hope here that this liberal government or this form of the liberal government will
Speaker:be more receptive to the pressures being applied and will finally declare it a genocide? I'll
Speaker:start by saying in early days, I think we had a glimmer of hope for a moment. There was
Speaker:quite a remarkable joint statement that Prime Minister Carney signed on to with President
Speaker:Macron and France and Prime Minister Stammer of the United Kingdom. Now, obviously didn't
Speaker:use the word genocide, but for the first time was seemingly starting to suggest that there
Speaker:were some red lines. for Canada and France and the United Kingdom, obviously. And they
Speaker:were expressing opposition to the renewed military offensive in Gaza, the ground offensive. They
Speaker:were speaking out strongly about the denial of humanitarian aid. They were saying very
Speaker:clearly it has to stop. And they were saying, we will not hesitate. There will be sanctions
Speaker:if that doesn't happen. Now that's six weeks ago, and obviously every single minute of
Speaker:every day since, the situation has only gotten worse. So I think we went from that moment
Speaker:of, there a hopeful sign that we may see a slightly new direction here, to recognizing
Speaker:that it's same old, same old, empty words that betray Palestinians, that they give some sort
Speaker:of... empty nod to the role of international law without showing any willingness or indication
Speaker:of an intent to stand up for international law and enforce international law because of course
Speaker:international law is utterly meaningless if states will not stand behind it, will not
Speaker:enforce it through a variety of different means. And then we've had this most recent bizarre
Speaker:indication that for Prime Minister Carney, he's got this notion of a Zionist Palestine,
Speaker:which I think has obviously caused incredible concern that whatever that initial glimmer
Speaker:of hope was, we've completely lost ground. And then in the midst of that, and of course,
Speaker:lot of the impetus for why we came together as a coalition was hope that we might see from
Speaker:the Prime Minister some willingness to show some leadership. around Gaza at the time of
Speaker:hosting the G7 summit. And it would be generous to say that hope was betrayed. We came out
Speaker:of that incredibly important meeting without an utterance of what is happening on the
Speaker:ground, an acknowledgement of what is happening on the ground, let alone some sort of weak
Speaker:additional action to do something about it. If we're placing all of our hope... in current
Speaker:political leadership to negotiate a Palestinian state, then I'm not entirely hopeful. However,
Speaker:if we believe in the resilience and the resistance of the Palestinian people, then I think we
Speaker:can be reasonably hopeful. Because what we have seen, especially over the last two years,
Speaker:is their struggle has been met with courage, and it has been met with creativity, and it
Speaker:has been met with determination. We have also seen, as mentioned earlier, a growing grassroots
Speaker:movement. There is growing mass movement among the people to make this stop and to liberate
Speaker:Palestine. And so if we do see, and I hope we do, the creation of a Palestinian state,
Speaker:I think it will come from grassroots political ruptures, from power at the top. This is going
Speaker:to be a bottom up. movement, which makes this type of coalition all the more important, I
Speaker:think. agree with you. It's kind of the basis of our show. So I always wonder when I see
Speaker:people speaking to the prime minister or speaking to ministers and pleading with them. I often
Speaker:wonder, you really, and sometimes I ask and maybe I'll ask you, are you really actually
Speaker:speaking to them? Because some of them, I think I've shown their true colors. And if we believe
Speaker:as as Taya said that it comes from below the power and the change that we need, then I try
Speaker:to see these pleased to politicians as really a platform for a broader audience. That that
Speaker:hoping for these politicians to move at this point is sometimes I worry that that's wasted
Speaker:energy. Do you ever feel that way? Or do you again, like kind of Taya said, see it as a
Speaker:broader message to the world, to Canadians as a whole, not just to the Liberal Party
Speaker:itself? Yeah, that's a very good question. having been in some of those meetings, I definitely
Speaker:have left some of those meetings feeling exactly what you just asked. Was that a complete waste
Speaker:of time? And even in some of the meetings, hearing back the depths of the anti-Palestinian
Speaker:racism and the Palestine exception, even within the meeting, can be demoralizing. But I am
Speaker:remembering, well, one of the very first books that I think radicals or advocates are almost
Speaker:required to read is Rules for Radicals, Saul Alinsky's book, which is probably the most
Speaker:over-read book in our advocacy circles, but still very, very important book. And what
Speaker:it says is there has to be a diversity of tactics. And there must be ways in which you can engage
Speaker:people from all across the spectrum of the movement. And so, you know, we've seen letters, we've
Speaker:seen meetings with MPs and politicians, we've seen protests, we've seen some more high risk
Speaker:actions, whether like protesting at weapons manufacturing plant or, you know, spray painting
Speaker:on Indico. there's... There are a whole variety of tactics and I don't think at the end of
Speaker:the day it's going to be one tactic that you can say that was the tactic that worked most
Speaker:and nothing else worked. I think it's just, you know, a combination or a snowball of multiple
Speaker:tactics. At times meeting with politicians probably made sense so that we could learn
Speaker:at least what they were thinking and what we were up against. Certainly my impetus to meet
Speaker:with politicians like the Prime Minister's office dwindled significantly after the second time
Speaker:we met, recognizing that he simply wasn't going to do anything without additional pressure
Speaker:from the ground. It was very obvious. And like Teja said, this is a ground up movement. The
Speaker:Prime Minister's office is not going to plead to sanity or shame or kindness. He's going
Speaker:to plead because there's a groundswell of support for Palestinians that are banging on his door
Speaker:over and over and over again and making it impossible not to listen and not to act. As frustrating
Speaker:as it is to have these engagements at senior political levels and of course, know, counterparts
Speaker:in other countries are having the same, it'd be generous to say disappointing outcome of
Speaker:their efforts as well. But I don't see it as a waste of time. because as Ben was saying,
Speaker:I think, especially when we're talking about something so enormously consequential as genocide,
Speaker:we have to be active on every front we can possibly imagine. And that means at those
Speaker:top senior levels, means from the bottom up grassroots levels, it means individual avenues
Speaker:for advocacy, it means enormous opportunities for solidarity, it absolutely means engaging
Speaker:with and supporting the community resilience that Taya is talking about. And of course,
Speaker:we're going to be as strategic and deliberate as we can possibly be about how we choose those
Speaker:moments, how we express ourselves publicly, who we find common cause with, et cetera.
Speaker:But there's always that other aspect in this kind of advocacy and activism that you just
Speaker:never know. what the tipping point is going to be, what the change moment is going to be,
Speaker:when is going to be that notable meeting when someone unexpected is sitting in on the meeting
Speaker:and they become the one who starts to change thinking at a senior political level, you just
Speaker:never know. And as long as we just don't know, then we have to keep trying everything we possibly
Speaker:can. I wonder if we can talk a little bit about the Palestinian exception. We've mentioned
Speaker:it a little bit, but I was kind of surprised that it would be so bold-faced in those meetings.
Speaker:Politicians are usually a little bit better with their appeasement tools, right? Like
Speaker:they seem to know what to say to get you to nod and leave the room somewhat satisfied.
Speaker:So to hear that you were faced with this and like comrades are being faced with this all
Speaker:over. Can you tell us just how deep it runs? Like where they are at, at their viewpoint?
Speaker:Because, you know, I imagine them struggling with it in the background, but that's not the
Speaker:picture you're painting. You can name names or not, but just maybe the experience of what
Speaker:politicians are saying to excuse their inaction behind closed doors. Well, it's everywhere.
Speaker:It's absolutely everywhere. And of course, it isn't just political. It's, you know, we
Speaker:saw it in how universities were reacting to the encampments last year and all of the amazing,
Speaker:amazing student-led activism, which, you know, over the decades with respect to other political
Speaker:causes and social issues and human rights concerns gets lifted up and celebrated as this is what,
Speaker:you know, students are all about. We should be encouraging this. And it just gets vilified
Speaker:and shut down and punished and sanctioned because it's Palestine. that we have freedom of expression
Speaker:in this country, for protesters to be out on the streets and to be even doing more militant
Speaker:direct action protests in certain circumstances. We cherish that. We recognize how crucial
Speaker:it is to a functioning democracy, except when it's Palestine. We want to support vibrant
Speaker:academic research across all sorts of social issues, know, exploring history, grappling
Speaker:with political challenges, and we want that to happen on campuses in ways that are leading
Speaker:edge and unorthodox, except when it is Palestine. And then to bring ourselves to the issue that
Speaker:brings us together, we're unified as an international community in saying no to genocide, both in
Speaker:the sense that it should be prevented from happening in the first place. It should certainly be
Speaker:stopped while it's underway and that it should be sanctioned as it's occurring, except when
Speaker:it's Palestinians. it's, unfortunately, given that wide, wide context, and I think we all
Speaker:have a sense of the historical and racist and geopolitical reasons that lie behind all of
Speaker:that, it's not surprising that Ben and colleagues go into a meeting in PMO and even there.
Speaker:they encounter it because it is everywhere. I can give a little bit of a backdrop as well
Speaker:in, Alex, you mentioned it's not just the political system, it's the healthcare system
Speaker:as well. you know, you may know Jessa, but I was suspended from my job when I said,
Speaker:this is a genocide. I basically tried to stand up for human rights as well as against dehumanizing
Speaker:rhetoric of Palestinians. And I was suspended within like less than 48 hours of posting.
Speaker:And on the one hand, while that was a career altering suspension and my employability after
Speaker:that has been dramatically hampered, it did give me the opportunity to meet literally
Speaker:dozens of other healthcare providers across Canada. and across the United States who've
Speaker:gone through very similar experiences with regards to being suspended. At one local Toronto hospital,
Speaker:the Sick Kids Hospital, over 10 different people were suspended all for social media related
Speaker:advocacy of Palestinians. And yet in the same hospital, physicians who posted the most grotesque,
Speaker:obviously pro-genocidal racist material suffered no consequences whatsoever. You know, I've
Speaker:also met with multiple provincial and the national Canadian Medical Association. Most recently,
Speaker:when we met with the Ontario Medical Association, they had posted a racist tweet in support of
Speaker:a study which was not scientific, claiming anti-Semitism when what they were really claiming
Speaker:wasn't anti-Semitism at all. It was simply pro-Palestine advocacy. They agreed to apologize for the
Speaker:miscommunication. They agreed that they would come out with a public statement, that they
Speaker:would take the tweet down. We also pointed out some other cases of anti-Palestinian racism
Speaker:within their organization. And even though we met with the president, the president-elect,
Speaker:the heads, all the leadership of the OMA, the subsequent follow-up meeting They read a pre-prepared
Speaker:statement in which they said they were no longer going to engage in geopolitical issues. And
Speaker:thank you, but no thank you, we're done this conversation. And this is despite them quite
Speaker:proudly speaking up about anti-black racism, anti-indigenous racism. They donated money
Speaker:to Ukraine and called out Russian aggression. Like this is just pure racism on the Ontario
Speaker:Medical Association. That's what it is. It has to be called out. It's anti-Palestinian racism.
Speaker:It's not anything else. They have literally decided to change the rules to be completely
Speaker:silent on Palestine, who's literally experiencing a genocide. they're somewhere where healthcare
Speaker:facilities have been targeted and bombed, healthcare providers have been targeted and killed. And
Speaker:the medical association that was quite proudly speaking up against Russia for Ukraine and
Speaker:raising money for them can't even say, yeah, genocide is wrong. You know, it's horrific.
Speaker:It's pathetic. And I'm, I'm, I'm ashamed that I actually give this organization money I'm
Speaker:compelled to, to practice medicine in Ontario. And if I had a choice, I would withdraw that
Speaker:money in an instant. It's just gross. It's gross. it's a theme that exists in, so many aspects.
Speaker:I mean, Alex gave us the. university example. And we've covered those cases and we've talked
Speaker:about those and we get digging and we find out that like the social media posts that Ben
Speaker:was suspended for, it generates campaigns amongst the Israeli lobbyist group in Canada. And
Speaker:these institutions end up being bombarded with all sorts of their own pressure points, like
Speaker:we're creating our pressure points and the Israeli lobbyists spending considerable amount of money
Speaker:putting pressure. They're the number one lobbyists right now for our politicians. So I guess
Speaker:my original question to Ben was to try to get inside the minds of these politicians when
Speaker:the doors are closed and what excuses they're using. Like, are they telling you they're feeling
Speaker:these pressures from lobbyists or do they have genuine anti-Palestinian views that are why
Speaker:they don't think Canada should help at all? Like whether they call it a genocide or not,
Speaker:like they're seeing death, destruction. I mean, they don't call Ukraine a genocide, but they
Speaker:help, right? Like they didn't need a label to trigger legal obligations. They still went
Speaker:in and we've seen imperialist states do this many, many times. We'll come help you and
Speaker:how it turns out. So it's not always great, but I really did want to know, you know, what
Speaker:do they have? the guts to say to your face when you have experienced what's going on over there.
Speaker:Like what are the lines that they're giving you even when the door is closed? I mean the
Speaker:lines are the same lines we hear publicly. That's shameful. I've heard Israel has the right
Speaker:to defend itself. I've heard that so many times. I've heard you know we believe in a two-state
Speaker:solution but then when called out they say oh no we're not going to vote for a Palestinian
Speaker:state. much of the time what I hear is, you know, oh, thank you so much. We'll have to
Speaker:consider what you're saying and we'll get back to you. As opposed to saying, yeah, you know
Speaker:what? Genocide actually is wrong. They can't even get to the point of saying that. Now,
Speaker:I think we should mention there are some very brave politicians in Canada who have called
Speaker:it a genocide and who have actually taken considerable risks to do so. you know, and that needs to
Speaker:be commended, whether that's Heather McPherson, Nikki Ashton, Adam von Covertin. There's
Speaker:some that are very, very clear that, and I'm sorry, that is by no means a complete list,
Speaker:but there's many politicians who have come out and said it, and they should be supported and
Speaker:commended for that. So it's not like Canadian politicians are denying, well, they are denying
Speaker:the human experience because as Taya explained, acknowledging it as genocide is what really
Speaker:encompasses that whole Palestinian experience at this point, but they are using the usual
Speaker:tropes that we hear. And I don't know what's worse, to be honest. And I think what is,
Speaker:to come at that from a legal perspective, what is galling and disgraceful is that here we
Speaker:are 20 plus months into this and that line has not shifted. Right from day one, what we heard
Speaker:was Israel has the right to defend itself. And always throwing into the mix this empty
Speaker:exhortation calling on Israel to comply with international law. It is Canada's expectation
Speaker:that Israel must comply with its international legal obligations. And then never, ever following
Speaker:that up, whether it be in behind closed door meetings, to start to have the conversation
Speaker:around what What does self-defense mean as an international legal concept? Does it apply
Speaker:at all in this context? Or is there a certain dimension to it that perhaps does and other
Speaker:aspects that do not? And recognition that at the end of the day, no matter what, nothing
Speaker:ever, ever, ever justifies or excuses genocide. And then also this complete refusal to acknowledge
Speaker:that ages ago, Israel long ago crossed that line of not complying with its international
Speaker:legal obligations. And when do we ever name that? Whether it be the most obvious concern
Speaker:that we have, genocide, but even the lesser concerns about crimes against humanity, war
Speaker:crimes, other kinds of human rights violations. None of that ever, ever gets named, let alone
Speaker:some sort of meaningful action announced to deal with Yeah. I mean, in 2019, I was in Gaza
Speaker:during the March of Return protests. And there were many physicians who had a very similar
Speaker:experience. I worked as a field medic. And during that time, I saw, I mean, you could literally
Speaker:see the Israeli snipers from the protest area. And they were shooting children. healthcare
Speaker:providers, reporters, people in wheelchairs, like anyone with live ammunition. saw it.
Speaker:I literally ran out to collect a healthcare provider because she was shot in the ankle
Speaker:while she herself had been providing aid to someone else who'd been shot. I came back
Speaker:to Canada after witnessing this. and contacted the International Criminal Court. It was Ms.
Speaker:Fatou Bansouda who was the head of the court at the time. And I provided what I witnessed.
Speaker:I provided my testimony and was given a letter of thanks for providing the testimony. And
Speaker:then to no surprise, there was actually an independent commission by the United Nations investigators
Speaker:that found that indeed Israel's snipers shot at handicapped people. reporters, children,
Speaker:healthcare providers, knowing they were fully identifiable as such. You know, that report
Speaker:didn't surprise me because I saw it with my own eyes. And yet we're sitting here wondering
Speaker:if Israel is capable of behaving in a way compatible with international humanitarian law. Like we
Speaker:already know they haven't. Like, and the Canadian government should know that because one of
Speaker:our own healthcare providers who was a medic at that protest, Dr. Tarek Lubani, was shot
Speaker:while providing care, fully uniformed, and he was shot. And the Canadian government, eh,
Speaker:you know, they have an independent commission of inquiry on that that confirms what Israel
Speaker:did and still nothing. Still nothing, right? So, I mean, there's a longstanding history
Speaker:of this. Which makes, like, red lines hard to imagine. What would be a red line or what
Speaker:information are the powerful lacking? None. Because they have sources well beyond even
Speaker:what we have, right? For information from conflict zones or whatever we want to call it. Well,
Speaker:this is the thing, right? Even just saying that Israel has the right to defend itself as providing
Speaker:cover. Absolutely. Or our politicians to ignore what's happening on the ground and to not confront
Speaker:what is happening to the Palestinians. For my part, I've met with quite a few politicians
Speaker:as well. And the ones who perhaps are more pro-Israeli just aren't answering me. I don't
Speaker:get meetings with them. And for those who are more sympathetic, I find those meetings
Speaker:frustrating as well because firstly, the main thing they want to hear is what I've seen.
Speaker:And at first, you know, we relay our eyewitness testimony, explain the things that we've seen,
Speaker:explain some, you know, some of the trauma that we that we witnessed. But after a time, it
Speaker:became very frustrating for me because I wondered, you know, are we all just interested in trauma
Speaker:porn and we don't want to move beyond that? Like what you can see? Yes, I've seen it firsthand.
Speaker:I've smelled it. I've heard it. You know, I was there, but. anybody can see what's happening,
Speaker:right? As you said, Jessa, those in power have access to information, but even those
Speaker:without power can just pick up their cell phone and see what's happening. And so then that's
Speaker:followed by, well, what can we do? Tell us what we can Tell us what we can do. That's, I'm
Speaker:like, you're the politician. Tell us. And, you know, and I'm not medical, but. But well,
Speaker:when my colleague was like, well, I'm, I'm who's a surgeon. She's like, I don't invite you into
Speaker:my operating room as a politician and ask you what I should do. I'm about to operate on a
Speaker:patient. Like this is your space. We're here telling you what we've seen so that you can
Speaker:do something, you know, um, worth, worth noting though, that, uh, you know, some info that
Speaker:came from, especially the NDP caucus was really encouraging Canadians to contact their MPs.
Speaker:And this ties into the idea of the grassroots movement, right? If there is no pressure, if
Speaker:they're not receiving information from their constituents, they won't act. But if they are
Speaker:flooded with concern by their constituents, then it forces them, even if they don't want
Speaker:to, they have to. They have to respond to that at some point. And we have to... build that
Speaker:more. think that is an area that I know that lots of people have signed petitions, but
Speaker:it's important to keep doing it and to flood their inboxes. And we've seen this, as you've
Speaker:already noted, Jessa, from the Israeli side, right? Like this is a tactic that they use
Speaker:to do much success and it is a tactic that we need to build on as well. And also remember
Speaker:that it isn't just about getting them to act now, but it's evidence of inaction down the
Speaker:line. And there may be consequences for that. And those consequences cannot come to fruition
Speaker:if there is no evidence of inaction. So I think it's really important. And so part of this
Speaker:Unified Against Genocide Coalition campaign is to promote that action by Canadians. And
Speaker:I'll just add, you know, I think it can be what we're experiencing, what we've been seeing
Speaker:for the past two years, the overwhelming and hard to conceptualize and really hard to
Speaker:or contextualize, I should say, to make sense of. And so it helps me to think of this resistance
Speaker:movement as happening in three different areas, right? There's the militant physical resistance,
Speaker:which we're not fighting, right? Like this is the Palestinians fight, physical fight
Speaker:to liberate their lands. Then there are two other areas. One is political attrition, and
Speaker:then the third is economic attrition. And so the Unified Against Genocide is really focusing
Speaker:on that political attrition. And it really speaks to as well what Alex was saying about we never
Speaker:know what the tipping point is going to be. We never know what meeting is going to be the
Speaker:one that mattered, but we keep doing it and we keep pushing it. How people vote matters,
Speaker:right? How they're engaging with their politicians matter. And that counts not just at the federal
Speaker:level, but also the provincial level because we have, you know, illegal sales happening
Speaker:in Ontario of stolen Palestinian land. And this is a provincial issue. But also your
Speaker:city councillors, right? Bringing Palestine into all of these conversations matters because
Speaker:it creates a shift, right, at the ground level that then can bubble its way up. And then
Speaker:the third battle site, let's say, is economic. And that's where we have things like BDS,
Speaker:where people can make a statement by how they spend or do not spend their money or where
Speaker:they will spend their time or money and so forth. And those two areas, the political
Speaker:attrition and the economic attrition, we have so much power. That is our power. Right. And
Speaker:I think maximizing those two areas will help to push the needle in our favour. The notion
Speaker:that we hear back from politicians, this sense of helpless, well, what should we do? Tell
Speaker:me what I should do. I don't know what to do, is absolutely disingenuous garbage. And I
Speaker:think one of the things that is somewhat different about the Gaza genocide crisis compared to
Speaker:some other humanitarian situations around the world is there are so many leavers that Canada
Speaker:has. We don't always have that in all contexts. We don't always have arms sales going through
Speaker:to the country in question. We do here. We don't always have a thriving free trade agreement,
Speaker:which could be suspended. We do here. We don't always have obvious opportunities to actually
Speaker:be pursuing crimes against humanity and war crimes, investigations and charges against
Speaker:Canadian citizens because what they've been doing on the ground in the country concerned.
Speaker:We have that here. And all of that has been cataloged and put in front of politicians at
Speaker:all levels, exhaustively in petitions and briefs. and media interviews incessantly. So no politician
Speaker:gets to say, help me figure it out, I don't know what to do. It is clear what they have
Speaker:to do. Why don't you think they do it? Especially the ones who acknowledge what's happening and
Speaker:maybe will even publicly call it a genocide. Well, but I think, I think largely, not, not
Speaker:absolutely, but largely the politicians who have had the courage to name it genocide. aren't
Speaker:the ones who necessarily have access to the corridors of power. They tend more likely to
Speaker:be opposition politicians and it still matters. It matters enormously because that's how a
Speaker:chorus builds and they still have ways to exert pressure and you know maybe get an issue on
Speaker:the agenda for a parliamentary committee etc. But we do not yet have enough courageous voices
Speaker:who are close to the the centers of power where the decisions are being made. Can I, I just
Speaker:I really struggle with something here because, we're talking about commending the post. No
Speaker:offense to either of you. We're talking about commending the politicians who have spoken
Speaker:out. We're talking about, you know, using words like courage for those who have advocated
Speaker:on behalf of the Palestinians. Why? Like, this is basic humanity. This is basic fucking humanity.
Speaker:They're racists. I mean, you want to talk about why? That's partly why, right? Like, this is
Speaker:a systemic issue that has deep humanized Palestinians to the point that we have to give people who
Speaker:actually speak out on behalf of them the label of being courageous. That's where we're at,
Speaker:you know? And it's just, totally absurd and it's obscene. And we need to call them out
Speaker:on this, frankly. And we're trying, right? Like, and as my esteemed colleagues have pointed
Speaker:out, we're trying. We have to pull as many levers as we possibly can. And it isn't just us, you
Speaker:know, who have been there or those of us who have the education that gives us a bird's-eye
Speaker:view of how international law should function, it's anybody with a pulse who can see what's
Speaker:happening as being wrong and understanding that they have a moral obligation to speak
Speaker:out against the war crimes, against the apartheid, against the genocide, all of it. I think that's
Speaker:a really important point, Teja, this notion of how pathetic it is that doing something
Speaker:as basic to essential humanity as naming genocide genocide becomes labeled a courageous brave
Speaker:thing to do, I think is in a weird kind of flip way, one more manifestation of the Palestine
Speaker:exception, right? That that's how that gets portrayed and seen when it should be the most
Speaker:natural and automatic thing that flows from the mouths of every politician, of every
Speaker:political stripe. This should be something that doesn't at all have anything to do with political
Speaker:ideology or anything. But here we are in this ridiculous space. I too hold so much anger
Speaker:towards politicians that have acknowledged, that have done the bare minimum. Because I
Speaker:see what comrades are doing getting arrested and people who have everything to risk and
Speaker:are politicians. getting applauded for just opening their mouths and making statements
Speaker:in the halls that they were elected to make differences in. Right? And it's like, you should
Speaker:be, where are you on the front lines? There's no rule that says that they have to be confined
Speaker:to those halls. If they feel totally ineffective there, they should be trying alternate tactics.
Speaker:Right? If there's like, what do I do? Maybe it's like, well, I've tried all of those things
Speaker:within my realm of possibilities of what I think I can accomplish as a backbencher, as
Speaker:an opposition politician will then do something else. That's not because that's where my question
Speaker:because they don't they so they've been presented with all of the trauma. They have gotten all
Speaker:the brownie points for being on the right side and then they've really done nothing else with
Speaker:it. It's only cowardice actually not courage that they haven't gone above and beyond. But
Speaker:I bought my own personal gripes with politicians to the kind of bleeds out. So it's good that
Speaker:there's people in balance. that are working these halls of power. I would not be able to
Speaker:sit in those meetings that you do and try to gain ground there. I'm glad that other people
Speaker:are willing to do it because I would be too upset and I think I expect too much of these
Speaker:politicians at this point. But Tay, I wanted to go back to one of your points though, just
Speaker:quickly. You mentioned the three kind of points of pressure, militant, political and economic,
Speaker:and militant will set aside for now that That's another discussion. But political and economic,
Speaker:I think at this point, we've been given so much evidence that politicians do feel pressure
Speaker:and act on pressure, but economic pressure is the ultimate pushing point for them. And that's
Speaker:what makes the grassroots so important. BDS is one example, but, you know, other disruptions
Speaker:that can occur that affect the economics, the economy, right? We see a lot of activists
Speaker:using other means to disrupt financially, right? And I think it's in hopes that that won't just
Speaker:cut off the Zionist state from the funds and the weapons that they need, but it'll create
Speaker:such a disruption and pressure point here that politicians will have to act, not in their
Speaker:best conscious, but because capital's on the phone with them and they've got to do something
Speaker:to stop it. So those two the political and the economic just can't be separated from one
Speaker:another at all. That's frustrating. Yeah, no, I think that's really important too. And I
Speaker:just want to quickly flag something that I did mention only in passing, but I think that
Speaker:it is unbelievably unacceptable that here we are this far into genocide and we still have
Speaker:a free trade agreement with the genocidal state in question, a free trade agreement that extends
Speaker:to and benefits the illegal war crime settlements in occupied West Bank territory. mean, in
Speaker:what other universe could that be at all imaginable? I'm not suggesting that by withdrawing from
Speaker:that free trade agreement, that's suddenly going to bring the Israeli government to their knees.
Speaker:But it's, it's unconscionable that we're continuing on on the economic front, as if it's business
Speaker:as usual. That's, that's got to end. One would imagine that would occur before sanctions,
Speaker:right? It would be kind of silly to have sanctions with the country you have a free trade agreement.
Speaker:There's like steps to get to where we expect our politicians to be. That's yeah. And the
Speaker:developments in the last few weeks, I know we didn't really talk about the situation on the
Speaker:ground and Taya mentioned, you know, almost like trauma porn, but the stage that we're
Speaker:at where Israeli soldiers are now admitting and almost complaining to Israeli media that
Speaker:they are being asked to shoot at aid seekers, Palestinians seeking humanitarian aid. And
Speaker:you folks did a great job in your press conference and in the letter that we'll link in the show
Speaker:notes for folks to hear for themselves of going at that Canadian political narrative that goes
Speaker:along with the promise of sanctions or not really, but know, tsk tsk Israel, do better
Speaker:next time. It's a humanitarian crisis, right? That's the word that they love to use and they
Speaker:frame it as though it's just occurring. There's no real culprit. People are just starving.
Speaker:And I don't know if anybody wants to kind of hit on that point as well before we go because
Speaker:that is the crux of Carney's position right now. And that if we could just figure out
Speaker:how to deliver humanitarian aid a little bit better, things will be fine. I think it is
Speaker:worthwhile to say that all of us here believe Palestinians, right? All of us have heard from
Speaker:Palestinians who told us that their loved ones went to get food and were shot and killed by
Speaker:Israeli soldiers. All of us heard that, all of us believed it, we reported it, and yet
Speaker:the world, much of the world doesn't believe it until Israeli soldiers says it, which I
Speaker:think is pretty... appalling reflection of anti-Palestinian racism. Your question, Jessa,
Speaker:was, or not really your question, but your comment how the politicians will say, oh, we just have
Speaker:to find a way to get aid in. Well, the thing is, we know how to get aid in. We had UNARWA,
Speaker:we had, you know, UN partner groups, INGOs with an established history providing aid in Gaza
Speaker:prior to October 7 and then stepping up when it would. all the efforts, we've seen so many
Speaker:efforts to completely destroy, to dismantle, make aid provision completely impossible.
Speaker:And then we see it being replaced by May of this year with this so-called Gaza Humanitarian
Speaker:Foundation, which is a Israeli run, US backed mercenary organization that provides a militarized
Speaker:aid model into Gaza. We used to have 400 UN sites that were located throughout the Gaza
Speaker:Strip that community members could go and receive aid packages, but also very importantly, it
Speaker:isn't just about receiving aid packages. They had access to other resources, educational
Speaker:resources, medical resources, social resources, any, you know, things that families might
Speaker:need given where they are at different life stages, whether with children, whether with
Speaker:elderly, whether pregnant, nursing, what have you. The Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, basically
Speaker:eliminated all of that and provided three sites of a distribution, which has turned into,
Speaker:you know, has been noted this, this hunger games situation where starving and I mean, starving
Speaker:my, my staff on the ground are reporting that every single victim that they are treating
Speaker:from these aid mass massacres are literally skin and bones. They are in a deep date of
Speaker:starvation and they are explaining to my medical staff that the only reason they're even approaching
Speaker:those aid sites is because of the sheer desperation that they are in to try to find food to feed
Speaker:their families. And so they come to these aid sites, which mind you are in restricted areas
Speaker:inside Gaza. They're located in red zones. They're located in areas where Palestinians
Speaker:in Gaza have been told that if they enter those zones, they are at risk of death. that they
Speaker:are at risk of attack. are not supposed to go into those zones and they are being told they
Speaker:have to in order to access these aid packages. And so they show up and they are shot at.
Speaker:They have been attacked with anti-personnel grenades from drones. They've been shot at
Speaker:from drones. They've had tank fire on them. It is appalling. It is appalling. is, mean,
Speaker:honestly, there's actually no words to describe the level of horror that is happening on the
Speaker:ground at these sites. And so you have this system that was initially designed, as Ben
Speaker:noted earlier, to meet the four principles of humanitarianism that has been replaced with
Speaker:this militarized aid structure that is only providing cover for prolonging the genocide.
Speaker:Just to clarify, you said there were 400 sites before? There were 400 UN sites providing
Speaker:aid throughout the Gaza Strip. And they are now three. there are no red lines. Like, can
Speaker:we all disagree? No, there are no red lines. This is dystopia. Like, this is dystopian.
Speaker:That's psychological warfare above and beyond the actual massacres, right? Like, you're denying
Speaker:them food and then you're killing them and yes, death, death. But then you're making them fearful
Speaker:of aid sites, right? It's like creating this whole other horror in the middle of what
Speaker:we thought was the ultimate horror. And it's no wonder that you folks are standing up and
Speaker:kind of trying to build a coalition as big as possible. Can people still sign on to the
Speaker:letter? Are you still accepting members? Like, is this something to grow? the letter that
Speaker:was signed by legal professionals and academics and UN ambassadors, that one has closed because
Speaker:it was very much focused on the G7 summit. But there continues to be an enormous interest
Speaker:in the letter and every day people saying they want to sign on. So we're looking at what the
Speaker:next phase will be around that, whether it's tying it to some other upcoming political
Speaker:moment. But I guess all I could say is watch that space. I think that group of 500 plus
Speaker:legal and diplomatic experts intends to continue to be very active and to broaden the platform
Speaker:for others to join in. If ever there was a time when silence and inaction just is not an option
Speaker:for anyone. And there's no matter who you are, where you're based, how much power you do or
Speaker:do not think you have, no, you do have power. And this is a time like none other to use it.
Speaker:is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. United Against Genocide is in the
Speaker:midst of planning more actions and expanding their coalition. So... Again, find ways to
Speaker:get in touch with them in the show notes as well as more information about the topics that
Speaker:we talked about. Thanks for taking the time to listen. We are a small, cooperatively run
Speaker:media team looking to amplify the many different ways people are challenging the status quo.
Speaker:One way you can help expand this reach is to share our content online. We'll be back next
Speaker:week with more stories of resistance. Until then, keep on disrupting.
