Social Justice in St. John's
The Social Justice Co-operative in St. John's Newfoundland/Labrador has a long as resilient history. Our interview with co-chair Kerri Claire tells of a personal political journey and an organizational one. Both of which have led to an impressive collective making a meaningful impact.
With limited resources, these folks are able to contribute to wide array of local initiatives. And most importantly, they do this in a way that value members' voices and set models for community care.
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Transcript
Greetings friends. My name is Jess McLean and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints
Speaker:of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining
Speaker:power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions
Speaker:we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle
Speaker:capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know
Speaker:we need. Welcome for Try Number Two, Carrie. Can you introduce yourself to the audience?
Speaker:Hello, my name is Carrie Clare Neal. I'm co-chair for the Social Justice Cooperative in Newfoundland,
Speaker:Labrador. Calling in from St. John's, Newfoundland, Labrador, also known as Iggongook. The Social
Speaker:Justice Co-op. According to your Twitter, this is a member-owned, nonprofit, anti-capitalist
Speaker:grassroots organization. That has a lot to unpack. It's at like, at first glance, you're like,
Speaker:oh, I can kind of picture what you guys probably get up to. We'll talk about that in details.
Speaker:But what's it mean to be a member owned nonprofit, especially when you're talking about social
Speaker:justice? I thought, you know, that kind of piqued my interest there. Yeah, I think we're the
Speaker:only advocacy, not a cooperative incorporated in the province. And I don't hear about a lot
Speaker:of them. in like other places in Canada. But it's a really cool model. I mean, I think,
Speaker:you know, we're familiar with like worker owned co-ops, housing co-ops. I think it is like
Speaker:a very kind of anarchist model in itself because it's kind of like everyone has a share in,
Speaker:you know, the organization and everyone has like one member, one vote. So everyone is like
Speaker:kind of equal. It's not like corporation where some people have more shares so they have more
Speaker:say. Um, and generally the members like, don't get like dividends. Um, like the profits will
Speaker:go back into the, um, cooperative in different ways. Maybe like, yeah, increasing people's
Speaker:salaries of a worker co-op or with housing, like I think it would go into repair. Um, but
Speaker:yeah, I guess as a nonprofit, we don't have profit. Um, but our money is kind of collectively
Speaker:decided, um, by our members who like vote for our board. Um, and. We definitely like take
Speaker:an extra mile to like bring members in on a lot of our financial decisions and just different
Speaker:ways like how we govern ourselves. And there are like, because we're cooperative, there
Speaker:are specific like rules about like how many people you need to change the official rule
Speaker:or that kind of thing. It's I think a very democratic and equitable way to organize. Okay, I'm going
Speaker:to ask you about that a little bit later because I want to know how you came about getting into
Speaker:this type of organizing, because looking through your history, it's eclectic in terms of political
Speaker:activism. You've run for the NDP, and you've sat on boards, which are far more formal institutions,
Speaker:typically. Did this come from a reaction to that experience or were you always doing this
Speaker:alongside the more institutional political work? Yeah, I guess like when I was a young 20 something,
Speaker:I would like, I started in activism, kind of like trying to get more women into like playing
Speaker:punk music. Like I was going to a lot of music shows and it was a lot of like men in the stage
Speaker:and women in the audience. Um, and then I, from there, I was like really interested in, like,
Speaker:I started getting into like feminist activism and using my voice more, like getting more
Speaker:on Twitter and, you know, concerns about like the oil and gas here in the province, and I
Speaker:ended up actually losing a non job that I got in a nonprofit that like helped women get into
Speaker:the trade sector because of like tweets I was making about like. politicians and the oil
Speaker:and gas industry and like its impact on climate and, you know, corruption and yeah. And I was
Speaker:like very public about that. I kind of made this like, it was quite a moment of like, okay,
Speaker:do I like be quiet and just like stop using this and like kind of just like become a career
Speaker:oriented person or do I? go public about what just happened to me and just kind of lean into
Speaker:it. And I decided to lean in. And it just happened there was a by-election happening near where
Speaker:I lived. And the NDP were kind of like, hey, we're looking for a candidate. Looks like you
Speaker:don't have a job. And I was kind of like, I had my tippy toes in there, but I decided to.
Speaker:to go for it and I ended up running against two of like the richest men in the province.
Speaker:And because it was a by-election, there was a lot of attention on it. So there was like
Speaker:all these debates and it was... Was that provincially? Yeah, yeah. It's always interesting playing
Speaker:against the big players, eh? Like the campaigns must have been starkly different. I find it
Speaker:interesting though, you kind of get in a little bit of... social media hot water and the NDP
Speaker:come to you because we've heard like many stories and I know you've had your own experience with
Speaker:them not being particularly fond of people who stir the pot. And I'm reading an article in
Speaker:which you're explaining why you're running for the NDP. And part of it, one of your quotes
Speaker:there, it was, you know, you weren't doing the wrong thing. You were simply working for the
Speaker:wrong organization. And I had... can help a cringe and I'm sure you do looking back on
Speaker:that, that clearly the NDP isn't the right organization for you either. But we learn and then we organize
Speaker:like anarchists I suppose is the natural cycle of that experience. But yeah, reading back
Speaker:on that, I just wanted to maybe allow you to reflect on. trying to find a space where you
Speaker:could act in ways that you thought were appropriate, that were meaningful. Yeah, the NEP don't want
Speaker:anything to do with me anymore. They have blocked me on Twitter. They totally think, yeah, they
Speaker:have to distance themselves from me as much as possible. Cause I guess the more, I think
Speaker:I was always saying pretty radical things, but I guess as my, Twitter following has grown.
Speaker:I get a lot more attention on the things that I say. So there have been a few things that
Speaker:have gone viral that liberals don't necessarily like. And, you know. Like, fuck the police,
Speaker:right? Was one of them. Yeah. Exactly. Mostly, yeah, about cops and images of cop cars on
Speaker:fire. Yeah. Totally appropriate. I'm serious. Maybe I haven't always used the most, the nicest
Speaker:times. Yeah, I guess a cop died and it was being shared with this blue line symbol. And I responded
Speaker:with, fuck the police. And that did not go over well. I mean, you could have put any cab. And
Speaker:that's how I got kicked off the border region. It could have also been. But yeah, after I
Speaker:ran for the NDP, I guess, the social justice co-op was looking to hire someone. And that's
Speaker:kind of when I got involved in that org. So it was all kind of standard. So finding you
Speaker:when you're kind of in trouble, they're like, ooh, I like that, right? It's not always a
Speaker:deterrent. The right people found you. So now you're co-chair over there and do folks organize
Speaker:a lot around defunding the police? We have... Definitely, yeah, over the years, I guess,
Speaker:we do a lot of different organizing. We've supported like a Cancel Canada Day events. We are doing
Speaker:like a prison pen call project where we try and like, build relationship with people in
Speaker:prison. And yeah, I would say right now we're doing a 10 city for change. We're involved
Speaker:with a collective that's helping people living in tents in our city. And that is a very like
Speaker:harm reduction, ACAB has, I mean, we're constantly dealing with the police and seeing how they're
Speaker:treating people. And showing up, I guess, at protests where police presence is really strong.
Speaker:Like today, a few of us went down and supported the crab harvesters where there's like, yeah,
Speaker:police and like SWAT teams, big guns, they had the batons. And like no one in that, no one
Speaker:at the protest was had weapons, you know? I think it's a pretty good sign of that you're
Speaker:doing the right kind of trouble when you end up confronting the police. That's a pretty
Speaker:good barometer for that. I gotta be honest, I have very little idea in my head when I think
Speaker:of even just the Atlantic in general, what it's like there. But I guess... What's the environment
Speaker:like when talking about these kind of cultural things like ACAB and all these things? How
Speaker:receptive are people there, I guess? I honestly have no clue. It's funny, the establishment,
Speaker:of course, is all about the police. But I do think a lot of people don't like the police.
Speaker:There was an article that went around about a year ago, kind of encouraging people to call
Speaker:the police more. It was like this R&C campaign and all of the comments were just people complaining
Speaker:about times when they called the police and they couldn't do anything. It's just how incompetent
Speaker:they are and useless. And I do think in rural areas, people aren't super trusting of the
Speaker:police. It really can be that one issue that we should all be able to relate on. But other
Speaker:than ACAB then, because obviously all cops are bastards everywhere, what about other kinds
Speaker:of politics? Can you lay the groundwork for folks who aren't familiar with Newfoundland
Speaker:politics? Is it generally conservative? Is was your election always going to be an uphill
Speaker:battle regardless of the budget constraints of running against two rich, presumably white
Speaker:men? Yeah, it's. I think there's a lot of cronyism here. Like the liberals, we have liberals and
Speaker:PC's our progressive conservatives are like our two main parties. And it's very much like
Speaker:they're the same party. Whatever one's in power, they do the same thing. Like tax cuts for the
Speaker:rich and like a lot of money going to like massive corporations who take them out to fancy dinners.
Speaker:The oil and gas industry is very important to our province. We have our own offshore oil,
Speaker:but also a lot of people work over in Alberta. And for a long time, we hated conservatives
Speaker:federally because of some stuff that happened under Harper. But we're definitely, we just
Speaker:elected our first federal conservative in the last election and in a long time. And people
Speaker:are expecting more of that is going to happen. St. John's was a stronghold for NEP for a long
Speaker:time, federally. And there's a couple seats. Right now we have one provincial seat in the
Speaker:city that's NEP and two in Labrador. It's only like five seats in Labrador. You describe your
Speaker:organizing as anti-capitalist things, and you've described talking about tent city organizing
Speaker:around maybe not prison abolition, but the harm reduction factor there. Is that a consensus
Speaker:among your collective? Would you all label yourself as anti-capitalists? And is that a hard sell
Speaker:in Newfoundland? That's a great question. I, we do have this like revolution of care manifesto
Speaker:that kind of like directly names capitalism as the big kind of that makes us sick and is
Speaker:kind of dividing us. And we need to take care of each other. And you know, have more co-ops
Speaker:and work together, yeah, have different economies that are more, yeah, thinking about more about
Speaker:the environment and each other. But we're also trying to be really decentralized and we do
Speaker:like a lot of different things. Like we advocate for like sidewalks, no clearing. And we're
Speaker:out on the streets supporting Palestine and we're, we have a book club and we... I think
Speaker:we're trying to hopefully bring people in on a lot of issues and we're not like you have
Speaker:to be anti-capitalist to join. But definitely I think enough people in the space are anti-capitalist
Speaker:generally that I think it opens people up more to the idea that the way that we're organizing
Speaker:this economy around like profit extraction and destroying the environment is like not helpful.
Speaker:Okay. I have a question because we just interviewed. someone from an anarchist collective. And one
Speaker:of the staying points with me was the practice of truly listening to everybody's voice and
Speaker:allowing them to take action as they feel comfortable, as they feel is effective, that is meaningful
Speaker:to them. Is that how you came about doing so many things? You probably just named a fraction
Speaker:because I will link people to your Linktree, which is extensive. And, you know, I'm asking
Speaker:you, are you involved in this and that before we started? Activist film collection, mutual
Speaker:aid, the Black Mutual Aid Fund, and all the other things that you've already mentioned.
Speaker:So are these kind of visions of all of your members and you just allow that? Yes, go for
Speaker:it. You know, book club? Sure, start it. without having to all come to a consensus on each one
Speaker:of these activities or even requiring the labor of each one of your members? Absolutely. We
Speaker:kind of consider ourselves like an activist incubator. So if you're really passionate about
Speaker:something and you want support, we're here to help. And as long as it kind of broadly aligns
Speaker:with our values, we do have some consideration about who we're supporting and how. But I kind
Speaker:of believe that Capitalism is such a massive, it's in every part of our life. And we need
Speaker:to like, there are a lot of different ways that we can tear it down. And sometimes we need
Speaker:to think about really immediate things, like getting people food when they're living out
Speaker:in the streets. And then, yeah, sometimes we're thinking about really long-term things like
Speaker:climate change. And how do we... you know, elect different people or how do we give people more
Speaker:willing to try direct action in different ways? Um, how do we just even just build community
Speaker:where we have enough trust that we could take things a step further. Um, yeah. So we also
Speaker:do a lot of like socializing as part of our movement. This kind of sounds like the dream
Speaker:to me. Like this is like what you guys are doing here. It's checks off so many boxes of. things
Speaker:that we need, you know? And honestly, I wish that more communities had organizations like
Speaker:this, because this kind of sounds quite like the blueprint of the work that needs to be
Speaker:done. I guess, because you mentioned like when you joined it already had been around, right?
Speaker:Can you tell me a bit about like, like what you've learned of like, what were the early
Speaker:days of this? Like, how did this... get started to hike off the ground. This was my comic book
Speaker:reference. We need the origin story. Well, thank you. That was very kind. Yeah, I definitely
Speaker:feel good about the strategies that we have. SJC has a really interesting history. So it
Speaker:originally came from out of Oxfam way back in the 60s. People like. got second mortgages
Speaker:on their homes and like bought this building and like, we're like, we need to do organizing
Speaker:that I guess connects like what's happening locally with what's happening globally. So
Speaker:we're really interested in making those connections and yeah, advocating in the province. And then
Speaker:in the 2000s under Harper, there were some rules around like what Oxfam could do as a charity,
Speaker:like they couldn't do as much political advocacy. So they like lost some money and like pulled
Speaker:out of. Newfoundland and Oxfam did. Oxfam pulled out. Cause yeah, they own the building. I guess
Speaker:they had staff. Um, so everyone got laid off and the, the building was like sold to Oxfam
Speaker:Canada with this idea that they'd have to sell back to it for a dollar to like a like-minded
Speaker:organization if they ever like pulled out of the region. So the social justice co-op was
Speaker:formed in like 2010. officially incorporated in 2013 to take over that building and kind
Speaker:of continue that organizing under a new name and in that negotiation, like the building
Speaker:burned down tragically. But, Oxfam Canada did give some like insurance money, like $50,000
Speaker:to the SJC, which is like an amazing little like pot of gold that really helped like. the
Speaker:organization to like hire a staff and like be independent. Because yeah, we don't rely on
Speaker:government funding, which makes it a lot easier for us to have that voice. We do like take
Speaker:this for certain projects, but like our core funding is all member driven. We do like a
Speaker:monthly, we encourage our members and allies to do monthly donations. And that pays for
Speaker:like our staff and like our core operations. being an incubator earlier and I wanted to
Speaker:ask you, who wouldn't you support? Because, and that like, it can be a funny question and
Speaker:some obvious answers perhaps, but again, I'm going back to the discussion we most recently
Speaker:had and the need that you mentioned to bring in as many people as possible, but there has
Speaker:to be a line. And I kind of wanted to ask that of our previous guests when we're talking about.
Speaker:doing that and including like all voices because the solution has to be a collective of ideas.
Speaker:But you know, how do you maintain a safe space for the people that you've already brought
Speaker:in that you need to thrive without being too exclusive? Yeah, it's something that we've
Speaker:been talking about a lot. Like right now in book club we're reading Let This Radicalize
Speaker:You by Kelly Hayes and Marion Pabe and they kind of talk about like you have to build a
Speaker:movement, not a clubhouse. So it's okay to organize with people that you don't agree with. But
Speaker:I think they're also to be aligned in like, if you're advocating to like harm some of the
Speaker:people that we're organizing with, then that then they're not in a safe space anymore. So
Speaker:we have kind of bumped heads with people who are been involved in like trucker convoy style
Speaker:organizing, and kind of concerned about, you know, the way that they're framing trans people.
Speaker:Um, so as an example, so I think that would be, that's a tricky, like so far we have excluded
Speaker:people that we know to be in the convoy from our circles. Um, cause some of them have been
Speaker:showing up to tent city for like, and it's been an interesting of like, should we? work like
Speaker:they're showing up bringing food and helping clean up like that's great. But should we work
Speaker:with them? But then they're also like saying mean things about us. So we're kind of just
Speaker:like trying to not like we've taken the strategy of just like not really talking to them and
Speaker:like letting them do their own thing and not engaging, I guess. And keeping them out of
Speaker:our core circles. Yeah. That's tough, especially when you see coalescing around certain issues
Speaker:like defunding the police, perhaps, because of the experiences that they're all having.
Speaker:And things like tent city, of course, not all aid is equal when it comes to folks helping
Speaker:the unhoused community. We know that, right? Like some don't go in with the right motives
Speaker:at all. But yeah, it's just a question I wanted to pose when that is the approach, right? Eventually
Speaker:we do have to bring everybody along. So how we best do that would be from the anarchist
Speaker:perspective, I suppose, but finding that balance as well, right? So that we can maintain safe
Speaker:spaces. I know some people roll their eyes when I use that phrase, but it's important because
Speaker:that's how you get every voice. And I'm going through, I warned you, I was going to go through
Speaker:like your meeting guidelines. I'm telling you everything you need to know is like on their
Speaker:link tree, including like the many different organizations in and around Newfoundland. St.
Speaker:John's specifically, but it's really eclectic and yeah, so I'm on there and I'm trying to
Speaker:figure out how you guys might do things differently and it's interesting folks should I'll link
Speaker:specifically to that because we're talking about it, but You have mechanisms written in things
Speaker:like the ten-second rule and Reminding people that silence is okay The ten-second rule is
Speaker:let's say you're the person that always talks like me. I always have a question. I always
Speaker:could contribute, could, you know, should I? Let me wait 10 seconds and see if anybody else
Speaker:has something to say, because not everybody is comfortable being the first person. It takes
Speaker:a few seconds for people to build up the courage to speak. So you just remind people silence
Speaker:is okay. We can sit here staring at each other for a few minutes until a light bulb goes off,
Speaker:like a real one, not just to fill the space. because how many meetings have you been in
Speaker:where people are really just regurgitating what someone else has already said or simply just
Speaker:agreeing, like standing up to take up space to agree. And it's nice when people agree with
Speaker:you, but it's also like maybe some tension is needed. You know, maybe you don't need a cheering
Speaker:section. You need somebody to just sit there for a minute and come up with a different idea.
Speaker:But yeah, do you think, are there anything? And are there any other things that you folks
Speaker:do that you think have helped you create an environment where so many different ideas come
Speaker:up and are encouraged and then acted on? You know, they're not just, it's not just a think
Speaker:tank. You're turning a lot of these into action, which means people are coming up with ideas
Speaker:and then other people are volunteering their time to make it happen. So you guys are doing
Speaker:something right. And it starts sometimes in those meetings. Yeah, I would say meetings
Speaker:are like 80% of what we do. I'm sure a lot of organizers feel that. And being really mindful
Speaker:about like making it an enjoyable is something that we've yet put a lot into. I would say
Speaker:like, when we started meeting with the check-in circle, so we go around, like on Zoom, we might
Speaker:go alphabetically so folks know like where they are in the circle. and kind of say like, you
Speaker:know, what are your names, your pronouns and how are you feeling coming into the meeting?
Speaker:And maybe there's like a icebreaker question. What was the last protest you went to? And
Speaker:that some people don't like that. They're like, oh, we're spending all this time wasted when
Speaker:we could be talking about the action items. And it's like, but that's actually really important
Speaker:to like understanding, like knowing each other where we're all coming from. how much capacity
Speaker:we have right now to like be involved. And you know what's bothering them or like what's on
Speaker:their mind. And we also do like a check out circle. So at the end we kind of say like how
Speaker:did you feel about the meeting? Were there any like actions that you're planning to take on
Speaker:or need some support with? And I think those like relational pieces I think are often Um,
Speaker:I went to a meeting like a couple of years ago, organized by some union and they were going
Speaker:to kind of do like a green new deal for Newfoundland. It was like a people's deal. I can't remember
Speaker:what it was called, but, but 60 people in the room and they, no introductions, like I just,
Speaker:and you know, how can you share ideas if you're not like taking that time to be like, Oh hi,
Speaker:this is me. Like where I'm coming from. if some of those are even designed to get your input?
Speaker:You know? Yeah, it's something that people forget a lot is that the importance of building your
Speaker:organizing spaces into communities, right? Like it's more than about just the business end
Speaker:of things, you know? It's the relationships, interpersonal relationships, that's part of
Speaker:it. That's part of the movement. And that's how you build something that's going to last,
Speaker:be successful. I've seen some, like, I'm a part of organizations that very much don't do that.
Speaker:And people, I find very quickly, find that they don't really have a voice in there, they can't
Speaker:really, they don't feel comfortable contributing, communicating, and they end up leaving pretty
Speaker:quickly. They start thinking, why, it's not even worth it for me to show up to this, and
Speaker:do they even really? need me here? Does my presence do anything other than count as a number of
Speaker:how many people were here? No. So I'm gone. And so building that kind of environment is
Speaker:crucial. Absolutely. And then everyone has ownership too. If it's the book club was their idea,
Speaker:even if they don't completely execute it on their own or even at all, right? Like you don't
Speaker:necessarily have to be the person to do it, to come up with the idea. Although you should
Speaker:be willing to do some of that. But there's ownership and pride rather than just taking orders or
Speaker:having a real a model of activism that you just kind of want people to step into and fill that
Speaker:role. And, you know, it's like a formula. A lot of organizations you walk into, it's this
Speaker:formula. There's almost a ladder you can see, maybe not of power, but of progression. And
Speaker:It just feels really stifling. It just feels like we're mimicking some of the institutions
Speaker:sometimes that we don't want to, that we've railed against, but we just don't know another
Speaker:way of doing it. So it's, I love that our interview actually got delayed until we had the discussion
Speaker:with the anarchist. Because I think it set the stage for just understanding a different design,
Speaker:especially for small... community groups. Well, I don't know how big are you? How big is your
Speaker:organization? It's pretty small. I mean, I guess we have like 200 members, official, like shareholding
Speaker:members. I'm sorry. Pretty small. We're talking about St. John's, Newfoundland. So what is
Speaker:the population of St. John's? 200 members is fantastic for like, I'm in Toronto, you know,
Speaker:like there's not that many organizations that got up to those numbers. And we have a lot
Speaker:more people here. You know, 200, that's honestly incredible. Oh, thank you. That's, that's a
Speaker:good perspective. I mean, not everyone is like super active, you know, um, you get a membership
Speaker:for life kind of thing, um, and right now we're raising like $25,000 a year. Um, we did just
Speaker:have like all of our money stolen. Um, but. Sorry, what? We have recovered. Yeah, about
Speaker:a year ago, I should say. Well, who's asking if the kick, do we know who stole your money?
Speaker:Yes, someone that we've really trusted. They were our treasurer, they were on the board.
Speaker:They came to every meeting, our birthdays. Yeah, over two years. I am so sorry, cause that must've
Speaker:hurt, honestly. Yeah. It was a real wake up call. Like I think, yeah, I've been on the
Speaker:board and I was so focused on like the activism part of it and not, yeah, we didn't do good
Speaker:oversight on the financial side of it and really like trusted this person who was kind of in
Speaker:a financial, facing their own financial issues. And I guess like the temptation was there.
Speaker:and you know they were presenting treasurer's reports and everything but like we weren't
Speaker:looking at the bank statements and yeah finally like we did discover it um and it almost it
Speaker:definitely like was really intense like that decision about like do we go to the police
Speaker:was really hard and we decided not to because we didn't believe that it like went by
Speaker:who maybe haven't been with us for every, you know, defend the police action kind of came
Speaker:out of the woodwork and were like, what do you mean you're not going to the police? I can
Speaker:see that, yep. Yeah, but actually I think being a cooperative kind of also helped us in that
Speaker:moment because we were able to put forward a plan that our members were able to like give
Speaker:input on and vote on. And I think... We like had a series of membership meetings and like
Speaker:we were really transparent. Like we haven't shared everything publicly yet. We are hoping
Speaker:to like put out a fraud investigation report by the summer, but we were really transparent
Speaker:with our members and let them also talk about like, you know, what they thought was going
Speaker:to happen. And thankfully, yeah, the, the ACAVRs in the group. We had really strong voices and
Speaker:we're really passionate and we were able to put together a Transformer of Justice Committee
Speaker:who are kind of helping us now, like through that process. I absolutely love this moment
Speaker:even though it was the last thing I wanted to hear because you wanna be able to trust anyone
Speaker:that comes forward and is willing to do the work. I'm a real believer in that. But oversight,
Speaker:lesson learned there. But to not go to the police, to practice what you preach, that's so important.
Speaker:And it wasn't that you just didn't go to the police as a matter of principle either, you
Speaker:provided an alternative model for people to follow. Next time, hopefully there's no next
Speaker:time like that. But in their lives, in their conflict resolution and how they can envision
Speaker:a world without... police intervention for everything. So, because I imagine the temptation, we're
Speaker:all raised to be like, no, you wronged me, bad guys, call the cops. It's very inherent in
Speaker:how most people are raised. And so, and then when you're personally wronged, we often quite
Speaker:see people, even though they will take the stand of defund the police, they'll call the police
Speaker:or they'll cheer them on as a solution. And... We've talked about that before, that simply
Speaker:just reinforces the ideology that you spend so much time trying to break down. And I don't
Speaker:think there's any truer way to reinforce it than to be that example. Because some people
Speaker:scramble to even envision, like, what is that going to look like? What do we do if we don't
Speaker:call the cops? You just let her go? You know, and it's... There are other ways to kind of
Speaker:work through the problem. Plus, additionally, it's a testament to the strength of your group.
Speaker:That kind of thing can really... tear a group apart, you know, the fact that you came out
Speaker:on the other side of it and you know, you're still here, you're still doing the work. That
Speaker:that in and of itself says a lot about, you know, the dynamics that have been fostered
Speaker:there. Yeah, definitely. Like when we were going through it, I was like, do we just like, yeah,
Speaker:close this, start fresh? And then I was like, you know what, like, we've already built so
Speaker:much, we're gonna have to put in better financial oversight policies than any other thing that
Speaker:we do. We kind of just have to keep moving. We survived the building burning down. We can
Speaker:survive having all our money stolen. And we, incredibly, a lot of our monthly donors did
Speaker:not leave us. And so after just, I think eight months, we were able to hire back our staff
Speaker:at the same salary. And... Having staff is so important to our organization. And I just feel
Speaker:so lucky that like, it does feel like we're bouncing back. And that people like trusted
Speaker:us to like figure it out and trusted the plan that we put forward. It was like really hard,
Speaker:even on the board, like not everyone was a cab and you know, people thought like. Oh, like
Speaker:you have, it's in the law that you have to go to the police if someone steals from you. And
Speaker:it's like, well, actually, it's not like that is a choice. And we did meet with lawyers and
Speaker:they were like, you know, you're probably not going to get your money back, even if you want
Speaker:that route and you're going to have to spend like years going through that route. And, you
Speaker:know, are we as going to be motivated to do that? Like, are we going to force our members
Speaker:to go through that? Like, no, like. And thankfully, like. Actually, in our book club, we were doing
Speaker:a lot of prison abolition reading. And some of our members started a transformative justice
Speaker:working group probably a year before it happened, just to kind of start thinking through, like,
Speaker:how do we resolve conflict outside of police? So, like, thankfully, we also had that, like,
Speaker:people in place who were like, I I'm not an expert on this, but I'm willing to talk to
Speaker:experts and The NL Human Rights Council here also just got funding for restorative justice.
Speaker:Um, worker, like people who were, yeah, supporting restorative justice and teaching people about
Speaker:it. So we were able to like lean on that. And yeah, um, I think having that in place already
Speaker:really made it seem for people like more possible that we could do this, um, without the police.
Speaker:I meant to bring this up earlier and now we're talking about police again. But just recently
Speaker:a video went around from yesterday. So the same thing you went to earlier today, but clearly
Speaker:a little more heated where police were using horses and backing them up into. Fishermen,
Speaker:I guess the fishermen were there. They had. Although that is interesting, a cab worth worthy
Speaker:of discussion, and we can. I kind of wanted to talk a little bit about the action itself
Speaker:that we didn't get into because I was telling you, we don't get that a lot. Our farmers rarely
Speaker:come up to protest anything anymore. It's been a very, very long time here in Ontario. And
Speaker:I cannot remember the last time there was a decent effort to shut down the proceedings
Speaker:happening inside the legislature. even when we know the most damaging things are coming
Speaker:down the pipe and rallies have happened, never has a circle been formed, never have exits
Speaker:and entrances been blocked. Like not a long time. You might have to go back to the Harris
Speaker:days of action, 20 odd years ago or more now, maybe 30. Ugh. And what are you laughing at,
Speaker:Santiago? Don't you dare. But I thought that was, and I'm not even sure what they're protesting,
Speaker:so I don't know if I support them or not. But you're down there, you seem to, but... Besides
Speaker:that, they're trying to stop the budget from happening. There's something in the budget
Speaker:that they're not happy about, and they are stopping the politicians from physically getting in
Speaker:the building so that they can't pass the budget. Does that happen a lot down in Newfoundland?
Speaker:Because that's impressive. It was, yeah, quite something. I wouldn't say it happens a lot.
Speaker:I don't think I've seen anything like that in the past 20 years here either. But yeah, harvesters
Speaker:from all across the province. drove in like huge numbers. I don't think the government
Speaker:saw it at all. It wasn't really about the budget, but I guess they realized, you know, it's an
Speaker:important day for government and they're gonna be pissed if we show up and block the entrances
Speaker:today. Like they showed up at dawn. They'll care today if we block the, the other day they're
Speaker:probably not even here working, but okay, I get it. We know where they're gonna be. And
Speaker:yeah, stop people from getting in. And I think it actually like, The whole horse thing, I
Speaker:think, also comes from people actually not being well trained in protest management because
Speaker:I think that was the police. You mean police or like marshals for the fish harvesters? Yeah,
Speaker:the police. Okay. I don't think they... These folks didn't have marshals. You should have
Speaker:seen them, Santiago. Have you seen the video? The horse is backing into them and the guy's
Speaker:taking his cone. Ha! Get back! I was worried that horse was... like a back kick or something?
Speaker:Well, some people did get hurt. And one of the shots in the articles I'll link is, you know,
Speaker:the only people leaving the rally are the injured. And, you know, there were some. And these are
Speaker:not like young folks, these are older gentlemen. It was just things we don't experience here
Speaker:in Ontario. And I guess, yeah, it's a little bit unique in Newfoundland, but they. Their
Speaker:determination and their their. Willingness to not back down was admirable. whatever their
Speaker:cause, I suppose. Yeah, absolutely. And now the police are charging the people who hit
Speaker:the horse. They're just kind of like, you know, ramming your car into a crowd and saying, oh,
Speaker:you know, you scratched it. Like, you know, I think people have a right to- They've backed
Speaker:it over and over. Face first, butt first. Like, and that's particularly dangerous. Oh, dear.
Speaker:Oh, cops will charge anybody these days. Side note, the protestor that they arrested, not
Speaker:the protestor, the picketer for QP3903 that we talked about this before, there were no
Speaker:charges. There was nothing to charge them with, them with. And so we're seeing this over and
Speaker:over again. They may arrest them and charge them, but I doubt that will actually go to
Speaker:trial because it would be absolutely ridiculous. But it's just a real trend of police throwing
Speaker:charges during these moments at... protesters and organizers and trying to shut these down
Speaker:with horses. We see more and more use of that in Toronto as a response as well. And it's,
Speaker:you know, it's something you got to prepare your members for going out there. But yeah,
Speaker:it's a worrying trend for sure. Other than fish harvesters shutting down the Confederate building,
Speaker:are there anything? Is there any other unique factors you think to organizing in Newfoundland?
Speaker:Perhaps other than the obscene level of snow you guys get. That's not really funny because
Speaker:that must impact 10 City. You mentioned that on Twitter and I was like, what are you worried
Speaker:about? And she was like, snow, snow is, you know, was a huge barrier there. Yeah. We were
Speaker:really concerned about people freezing to death this winter. We've made it through, it's spring
Speaker:and everyone has been okay. And yeah, I mean, Ten City is interesting because there are a
Speaker:lot of shelter spaces in the city, but a lot of them are kind of dirty, dangerous, degrading,
Speaker:and people are protesting against them. So we're supporting that protest and people's right
Speaker:to... to resist these like really awful options. And I think it's been really eyeopening for
Speaker:a lot of people in this province. Like I think government kind of assumes like the poor are
Speaker:gonna be quiet and not speak out against the oppression that they're facing because they're
Speaker:like, like these are people who are like very, very low income. And like seeing... the community
Speaker:support that's come around. I don't think a lot of people realized how bad it was and I
Speaker:have been really educated and we are seeing a lot of, all of a sudden government has money
Speaker:to build homes and repair, that was a big, huge thing. There were hundreds of government-owned
Speaker:housing that were just in disrepair and some of them just needed a paint job before they
Speaker:could let someone in, but they were just not putting money into it. Um, now they're, they
Speaker:are funding all these like housing support workers and these different nonprofits and seem to,
Speaker:I think because of the protest and, and those public support for the protest, um, they are
Speaker:taking it like a lot more seriously. I think that is like one of the unique things about
Speaker:Newfoundland is like, we do have like a bit of a big city, like a hundred thousand, 150,000
Speaker:St. John's, um, maybe 200,000 kind of surrounding area. Um, but. it's still small, you still
Speaker:kind of get to know each other. And especially around the Bay, there's the sense of camaraderie
Speaker:and community and people are really trying to hold onto that. And so I think people are willing
Speaker:to support each other. We are getting that Alberta influence of, especially young men are going
Speaker:out and making a lot of money and I don't need anyone else. I can just take care of myself.
Speaker:But I think generally where we've been, especially like a poor province too, for a long time,
Speaker:like people are more willing to like look out for each other. And so that is definitely like
Speaker:something that we're trying to like foster and support. One question I have is, how is it
Speaker:that, how do people stay informed in Newfoundland? Like, how do people know about like the issues
Speaker:that are affecting their community and stuff like that? because I imagine it's quite different.
Speaker:And do you guys have a role in that? I guess this was a rather question. Yeah, I'm like
Speaker:a Twitter addict, but I know the majority of people are not on Twitter. We have like CBC,
Speaker:but there's also MTV here, which is like our news station, privately run, like pretty corporate.
Speaker:And they also do like... they showed like Survivor, but they have their own like news program.
Speaker:Um, and then we also have the OCM, which was started by like super rich people in St. John's,
Speaker:but it stands for voice of the common man. And that is like a radio station that a lot of
Speaker:people listen and in the morning they have this thing called open line and people like can
Speaker:call in and talk about like issues that they're facing. Um, and that I would say like a lot
Speaker:of people like around the Bay, a lot of like the older generation. Um, listen, listen to
Speaker:that a lot. That's like the calling. I'm like scared to call in. I don't know. Yeah. You
Speaker:gotta call in. Oh, hi. It's like nine to 12. I have the host is like hardcore. He will not
Speaker:pop your bullshit. Um, I should call it more. And did they, did they pay much attention to
Speaker:your efforts? Your organizing efforts? Does that tend to get coverage? Sometimes I would
Speaker:say like 10 city is getting a lot of coverage and like when I say most St John's it's like
Speaker:if there's a protest like you'll probably get some media attention Because like there's not
Speaker:that much news happening But and like when So when we sent like the letter to our members,
Speaker:so we did we get to the press So we're that important that you know, you know, it's like
Speaker:our theft made the news
Speaker:Um, but I, I feel like, all these press releases, you need all this coverage on really important
Speaker:issues. And yeah, you end up getting a nice article written with the one memo you wish
Speaker:they hadn't read. But it's just hard to get coverage like that period. So I don't think
Speaker:it's just cause there's nothing going on. I think you guys are doing something meaningful
Speaker:that is hitting a note with people and they're forced to cover it. because I mean, 200 members
Speaker:and a population of like 200k? What? Because you're like, it's not small. Yes, it is, Carrie,
Speaker:I'm sorry. This is where my Toronto center of the universe, like we come from a really big
Speaker:city. That is small. So like what you're doing, it's big. You undersell yourself a lot. Like
Speaker:you're telling us a lot, you're bragging to a degree, but I think you're underselling the
Speaker:impact that you're having there. not just you, the organization, but yeah, let me just look
Speaker:through my notes and see if there's anything else I wanted to ask about. Well, you know
Speaker:what, let's just ask Carrie. I mean, do you have anything that, like, what do you want
Speaker:to share with us that we wouldn't even know to ask, I guess? Yeah, I guess one thing I've
Speaker:come, I need to tell everyone about the theft because I'm just like, it was the most horrible
Speaker:thing that's ever happened to me. I hope it never happens to anyone else. One of my big
Speaker:takeaways was like, you know, we want to be kind to each other in organizing. Like we need
Speaker:to be like so grateful that other people are showing up to this space. But we also like
Speaker:need to build the kind of trust that like we can hold each other accountable and like raise
Speaker:questions and raise concerns like after the theft. people kind of came up to me and they
Speaker:were like, oh, there was like this thing, like I wanted to ask and I did it. And maybe it
Speaker:could have saved us some grief. And yeah, even though like we can trust each other so much,
Speaker:having good accountability oversight processes in place is also, it also is taking care of
Speaker:each other because like, our treasurer, like they're not in a better place now because of
Speaker:like what happened. Like I think... they were dealing with their own stuff and we didn't
Speaker:show them care by also not having good oversight. I think they wish that didn't happen and I
Speaker:wish if we had looked at what was happening closer I don't think it would have happened.
Speaker:So it's important in organizing to... Oversight is also taking care of each other. It's tough
Speaker:because I mean... tons of organizations, but at the end of the day, oftentimes it's just
Speaker:making it up as we go along, right? Like a lot of it, you learn by failing and that type of
Speaker:thing, I think what's important is being able to bounce back from that. As I said earlier,
Speaker:I think you guys did great job at dealing with that, just from what you're telling me. I guess
Speaker:one thing I wanna ask is, are there other organizations in the area, or even... I'm going to use the
Speaker:word area to mean whatever you want. Like it could be, you know, provincial. It could be
Speaker:a bit further. But like are there other organizations that you guys have been able to like work with
Speaker:or, you know, show up in solidarity at your events or vice versa? We are definitely not
Speaker:doing it on our own. Like relationships and partnerships is such a big part of what we're
Speaker:doing. I mean, one thing that's kind of funny is SBC is actually kind of like a background
Speaker:organization, I would say, to a lot of like things that are happening. Like, we have a
Speaker:challenge per culture coalition. We're involved in like the anti racism coalition. We're involved
Speaker:in the migrant action collective, the indigenous activists collective. We a lot of our organizing.
Speaker:You're not going to be able to list them all, I bet. Yeah. There's no way. There's the Fridays
Speaker:for Futures theme song. There's a lot of stuff happening, and we're trying to keep an eye
Speaker:on it and show up for them and like, oh, how do we share your message? Or right now, the
Speaker:Palestine Solidarity, YYT, we're amplifying what they're doing. We wouldn't say we're organizing
Speaker:it, but we're trying to support that. Yeah, try to be where the people are is our motto,
Speaker:I guess. I love that. Yeah, because it's important not to double up on the work. Like, you can
Speaker:recognize that there's areas where there needs to be advocacy or mutual aid, but you can almost
Speaker:always bet there is a kernel of that work already being done, that with just a little bit more
Speaker:resources, attention, whatever they need. you can grow that rather than duplicating and then
Speaker:occasionally working together on some like-minded issue. I think this level of organizing is
Speaker:critical. There's probably a few organizations, I think, in Toronto that sort of fit the bill.
Speaker:The Workers Action Center,
Speaker:the incubator. I think that's just a great analogy for it. Yeah, I really appreciate folks doing
Speaker:that because you don't always get... Uh... It's not always glorious work, right? Doing the
Speaker:background work and it can be hectic. So many moving parts. There is a question I did wanna
Speaker:ask about all these moving parts and coalitions to be a part of. You only have infinite amount
Speaker:of resources, or sorry, we wish. You have a finite amount of resources. I mean, you guys
Speaker:are impressive in your fundraising, but still like that, that's... limited. And quite often,
Speaker:even though you'll sit in a meeting and everyone will have great ideas, sometimes what forces
Speaker:the sifting through ideas rather than allowing all of them to flourish is trying to find the
Speaker:one that we can afford, the one we have people to volunteer for. And so sometimes really good
Speaker:ideas fall by the wayside just from lack of resources. How do you keep saying all the different
Speaker:ideas and still being able to sustain yourself as an organization? Yeah, it is challenging.
Speaker:We have one staff who works 20 hours a week. And kind of we try to use the motto of like,
Speaker:if there's a volunteer who's right, like willing to kind of take it on and we're gonna we're
Speaker:there to support them and hopefully connect them with other people, like we'll do that.
Speaker:But we don't really like. initiate anything ourselves. So, you know, if a volunteer says,
Speaker:like, I can't organize, like, for example, I was leading a food sovereignty action team,
Speaker:and I wasn't able to keep it on anymore. And, you know, we did all this work. And people
Speaker:did come to meetings, but without having we didn't, if I stepped down, there was no other
Speaker:volunteer who was like kind of willing to like, keep hosting those meetings and hosting events.
Speaker:So we decided to just kind of let it go back to the wayside. And we have that information
Speaker:on our website, like the work we did, I think, still matters. We still brought people together
Speaker:to talk about issues that we cared about. But sometimes you kind of have to let things go
Speaker:and then there's space for new things. And we really try to like... One of the things we've
Speaker:talked about lately that we learned from Mutual Aid by Dean Spade was like the concept of like
Speaker:no masters, no flakes. So it doesn't always work, but you know, the idea like we're not
Speaker:here to tell you what to do. Like we're here to like try and bring you together and then
Speaker:like, yeah, hopefully someone will take something on and with the support of others. But ideally
Speaker:if you're gonna take something on, like you're gonna commit to it because it kind of just
Speaker:like lets us all down. if you flake out. So that's, yeah, something we've been trying to
Speaker:practice a little. But even myself, I want to be involved in so many things. And it's so
Speaker:hard to know where to put your energy. I'm trying to personally right now, I'm trying to put
Speaker:my energy in like direct action. Like I want to up the ante. So like, we're blocking an
Speaker:entrance, like I'm showing up. Yeah, trying to figure out where I fit in the movement.
Speaker:It's tough. There's always so many things that there's so many things that need attention
Speaker:that need people doing the work and it's and even when you when you're doing so much, it
Speaker:always feels like, but like, I can do a bit more. I can I can take on this one more thing.
Speaker:I can do this one more thing and then you try it and you burn out and you know, we've been
Speaker:there. So I definitely know how that goes. But you know, every little bit matters here. And
Speaker:this sounds like, like I can think of so many communities in Ontario, for example, that are
Speaker:a similar size to, like St. John's, for example, that don't have anything like this, you know?
Speaker:Sudbury, Thunder Bay, Sault Ste. Marie, Windsor, you know, like the- There's plenty of places
Speaker:that like this model needs to be repeated in. So honestly, like I almost feel like we should
Speaker:bring you back some time to talk about this because I really, I really, it checks off like
Speaker:everything that I appreciate. So I don't have much more to say. Sorry. But yeah, Jessa. I
Speaker:love when you're in this mood though, Santiago. Every time we do a Blueprints, it's a totally
Speaker:different feel when we get out of the studio. It's inspiring to hear the work firsthand and
Speaker:work through some of these problems that we just collectively are trying to work through
Speaker:in terms of moving the movement forward. But just thank you, Kerry. Thank you for coming
Speaker:on and for persevering through all our technical difficulties and rescheduling. I appreciate
Speaker:that. even more so appreciate the work that you do. Your firebrand is appreciated over
Speaker:here. And yeah, all the work that's being done out in St. John's, Newfoundland. Thank you
Speaker:very much. Oh, thank you for all your kind words. It's, yeah, it's a nice little boost to hear.
Speaker:Yeah, and it's great to talk to folks from other parts of so-called Canada. I'm really glad
Speaker:we got to. connect over Twitter. And yeah, hopefully I'd love to anytime anyone who's listening
Speaker:wants to reach out and talk about our model. I'm here for it. So yeah, thank you for the
Speaker:opportunity. I really appreciate it. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of
Speaker:Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Also a very big thank you to the producer of our show,
Speaker:Santiago Halu-Quintero. Blueprints of Disruption is an independent production operated cooperatively.
Speaker:You can follow us on Twitter at BPofDisruption. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting
Speaker:the status quo, please share our content. And if you have the means, consider becoming a
Speaker:patron. Not only does our support come from the progressive community, so does our content.
Speaker:So reach out to us and let us know what or who we should be amplifying. So until next time,
Speaker:keep disrupting.
