Episode 28

full
Published on:

15th Dec 2022

Lessons From: South America

With Canadian politics void of real resistance to Capitalism, the show looks to South America for some revolutionary lessons. Guest Alexander Moldovan shares some of what he learned while studying social movements in Venezuela, much of it by way of telling the stories of workers and communities fighting back while building networks of support. While examining the ways in which movements play a role in shaping the political landscape in South America, hosts Santiago Helou Quintero and Jessa McLean draw comparisons to Canadian situation.

Transcript
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Greetings, friends.

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My name is Jessa McLean, and I'm

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here to provide you with some

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blueprints of disruption.

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This weekly podcast is dedicated

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to amplifying the work of activists,

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examining power structures

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and sharing the success stories from

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the grassroots.

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Through these discussions, we hope

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to provide folks with the tools and

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the inspiration they need to start

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to dismantle capitalism, decolonize

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our spaces, and bring about the

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political revolution we

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know we need.

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Quite often on blueprints.

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We talk about the limitations of

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Canadian electoral politics, of

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of liberal democracies.

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And with all the issues we've raised

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so far and all the inequities,

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we still haven't even touched on.

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I think it's easy to realize the

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level of change we need will require

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something we've just never seen here

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in Canada.

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The big question is always, how do

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we get there?

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Right now, consensus seems to be

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that the socioeconomic conditions,

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the political atmosphere in Canada

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isn't at the point it needs

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to be. In truth, Canada

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has not seen the level of political

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engagement and collective

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mindset required to push

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outside these confines of

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our so-called democracy.

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You know, outside of what we think

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is possible.

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So it's been a long time

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since the working class have made

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any significant gains.

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In our last interview, John Clarke

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reminded us that the courage to

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meaningfully disrupt the system must

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come from the base,

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from the rank and file.

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We've acknowledged many times on

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here that the need to have organized

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labor work hand in hand with social

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movements, to mobilize

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the population so we can activate

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that collective power we keep

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talking about.

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That's true.

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If we keep looking to Canadian

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examples, we are going to have a

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hard time building something new.

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We are likely doomed to just keep

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repeating the same patterns, working

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within the same confines.

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But if we look outside this

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very limited scope.

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If we examine movements

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which have been successful,

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we can start to make

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the necessary foundations for

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that revolution.

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So in this episode, we are going to

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look at South American social

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movements, a cursory

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look that honestly ends up asking

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more questions than it answers.

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But this is a good thing because

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we are going to use this episode

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as well as some of the other themes

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that have been a constant in

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our work here as a launch

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point for a miniseries to start

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this larger discussion.

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Santiago and I talked to Alexander

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Moldovan about his recent experience

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studying social movements while in

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Venezuela.

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He shares some inspiring stories

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of resistance and solidarity

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as well as historical context,

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to help put it all in perspective.

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The North and South American

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experiences certainly have

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their differences.

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We recognize that, but there are so

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many parallels as well,

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and even more lessons to be learned.

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So we're excited at the idea of

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exploring this further with you, the

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audience.

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If you'd like to support us as

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we expand their content, our work,

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please consider becoming a patron of

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the show.

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As we go through the interview,

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you'll actually hear Santiago and I

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come to the realization that our

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work here drawing lessons from

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the South American experience is far

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from done.

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So you can also help us by listening

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in as we start this discussion

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and share with us any themes

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or questions you'd like us to

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explore moving forward.

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Here's our interview with Alex.

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Okay, welcome.

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Alex.

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Can you please introduce yourself

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for the audience?

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Thank you. Thank you for having me.

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Jessa and Santiago.

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My name is Alexander Moldovan.

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My pronouns are he him.

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So I'm a Ph.D.

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student at York University in the

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Department of Politics.

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I study kind of the link between

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social movements, insecurity

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and self-defense.

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I've been looking at this for

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several years.

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I've just come back from fieldwork

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in Venezuela, where

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I had the chance really to learn

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over the course of about two months

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from movements kind of down there,

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organizations and committees that

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are formed to free and

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imprisoned workers, farmers

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who are trying to feed cities.

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And one of the worst

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kind of situations of food

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insecurity in the hemisphere

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and workers who have taken over

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their factories.

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Although like my background is

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European, I was born and raised here

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in Canada.

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You know, I strive to learn from

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from movements abroad.

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And let's face it, I mean, Canadian

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politics tends to be a bit boring.

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We joke that it's cold up here and

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nothing happens.

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But, you

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know, we've we've seen titanic

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shifts in our political landscape,

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you know, an almost attempted, I

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guess, move to overthrow

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the governments and earlier this

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year that we're hearing the inquiry

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about very recently.

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So there's there's certain things

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that I feel that we can definitely

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learn from the Venezuelan

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experience.

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Pushing back against the far right.

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That's definitely a useful tool.

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And it's

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what you said is kind of in part why

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we called you on to blueprints

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when you mentioned that you had been

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studying social movements

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in South America.

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It seemed like a perfect time to

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talk about it because a lot of our

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episodes have been with

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the frustration in Canadian

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politics, the stagnation

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on the left.

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You're talking about movements on

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the right. You know, that's not much

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to get excited about.

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But I understand what you're you're

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talking about, like a need for

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for mobilization.

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But hopefully through this

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discussion, I'm hoping.

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To learn a lot because

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when we were talking to Dimitri

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LASCARIS. Right, Santiago's here

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with us today because

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he's got a lot of value to add

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to this conversation as well.

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So, yeah, I'm hoping to soak up

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a lot of knowledge for you from

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the both of you,

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but also as a broader

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movement here in Canadian activism

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on any parallels

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that you could draw or

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lessons that we can learn

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as activists on how to

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make way to use social movements

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to make way for actual progressive

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government.

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Because I think a lot of people

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right now are at a loss.

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Without a political home, we've

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talked about this a lot on

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blueprints and our encouragement has

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for folks to take up activism

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and to do mutual aid

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and things in their community to

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help push their neighbors left, you

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know, to kind of put it roughly.

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But we're not there yet.

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Right. We're definitely not there

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yet. I don't feel like we could

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activate civil society in

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the same way in South America.

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But maybe maybe

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you're going to give us a little bit

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of hope there, Alex, because you

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sounded a little hopeful there in

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your intro.

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Santiago, what do you hope to get

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out of this conversation?

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Well, for me, the way

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I see it right now,

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the whole world,

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you're seeing a push to the right.

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You know, you're seeing far

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right movements grow in Canada,

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the United States, Italy elected a

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fascist government.

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You have all

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over Europe. The far right is

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gaining more and more traction.

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Really, there's not been a lot

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of victories for the left.

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And then I look at Latin America

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and I see

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the opposite story.

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Right? We're living pink tide

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part two. You know, a country

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like Colombia, my home country where

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I was born, which had never

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elected anybody even remotely

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close to being a leftist

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that had been one of the strongest

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allies of the United States in Latin

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America.

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That has,

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to this day, the most U.S.

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bases in the continent.

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That has

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been a brutally violent

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place for leftists to

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organize, elected

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its first leftist president.

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That is a strong

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contrast to what we're seeing here.

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And I guess for me,

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being having lived in Canada

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so long now and doing all of

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my activism in Canada,

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I want to figure out, you know, what

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is it that they're doing right

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there? What is it?

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How are these movements being formed

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when so many of us are talking, for

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example, about writing off electoral

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ism here, about exploring avenues

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outside of electoral ism?

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How is it that they're finding

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victories through electoral ism?

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How is it that they're finding

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victories outside of it as well?

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Because there's a lot of organizing

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going on outside of that.

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I don't necessarily have the

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answers, but and I don't even know

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if we can even.

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Maybe Alex has all the answers about

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why we brought them here.

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Oh, God, no.

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No pressure.

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But that is a conversation I think,

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that we have to start having.

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Right.

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And it's worth learning because, I

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mean, they're doing something.

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You know, something's going well.

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No, certainly.

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I mean, like, when you look here,

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there's a huge and wide disconnect

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between what movements are doing

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and then what the electoral vehicle

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of the left kind of says and

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wants to even do.

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It almost seems like the NDP just

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doesn't want to take power, doesn't

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want to have power in its hands.

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But we understand that this is this

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is fundamentally important.

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And we could actually bring about,

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like, positive social change

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and make this this country,

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you know, govern for

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working people instead of on their

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backs. Right.

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But I think just to touch upon

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what we were talking about in

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Colombia, we can't look

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at Petro's election

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and this kind of this the sweep of

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left in Latin America without the

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movements of

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a year prior to the election, there

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was this national strike that really

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energized a lot of poor working

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class and young Colombians and got

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them involved in real social

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struggle like people are.

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We're fighting police officers, riot

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police in the streets.

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And it was quite widespread

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in multiple cities.

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People were actually fighting back

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against COVID lockdowns

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and against wage suppression, things

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like this.

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So we need to be able to actually

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tap into these movements, to be able

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to elect

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people like Pedro,

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at least here in Canada.

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You know, we can draw some sort of

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parallel to that.

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But contextually, I really want to

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say Venezuela is very

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different from Colombia and from

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Chile and even from Mexico

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since 2014 with I guess

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with the death of Chavez and the

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drastic decline in the price of oil

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and, you know, a very coordinated

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campaign of sanctions from

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the US, the EU and Canada,

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the country is very much suffering.

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Some of the stories that people were

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telling me or like, you know, for

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for several for several months, we

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could only buy like things that were

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produced here. So like coffee,

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mangos and maybe rubber,

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they couldn't imports, commodities,

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basic things to kind of get by.

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Some refugee agencies estimate

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the number of Venezuelans who have

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left to be somewhere between 5

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to 7 million.

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And that's that's a lot of people.

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This isn't like just the rich

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and, you know, white collar

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professionals fleeing the country.

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This is people from very poor

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neighborhoods saying, I can't make a

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living here and I have to leave

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to be able to find a job and support

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my family.

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And it's to some degree, it's it's

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kind of ironic, like the federal

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government has kind of really lasted

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all these sanctions, like the Lima

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Group, which is an organization that

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that Canada has an informal

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organization of states in the

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Western Hemisphere

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was formed right before this thing

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tied part to with when all these

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right wing governments were were

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running countries from, you know,

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Brazil, Colombia and Mexico.

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And they started to bring together

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condemnation.

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So forwarding

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cases to the International Criminal

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Court.

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So a case against Venezuela, Canada

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is a signatory to this.

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They tried to adopt diplomatic

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pressure and economic

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pressure, of course, with sanctions.

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Today, the Lima Group really doesn't

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function anymore.

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Other Latin American countries that

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signed on now have left this

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president that really have no

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concern for putting sanctions

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on Maduro.

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So, you know, while the government

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has very much kind of

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survives in a very,

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you know, dire economic state,

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it has this kind of wherewithal and

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tenacity, but it's

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also turned to some degree very,

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very repressive against working

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people, like when

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during the national strike,

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people were comparing, like the

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repression the military in Colombia

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was using to the

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like in Venezuela, it's called the

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operation Operation Liberate

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the People of Peace.

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And these are these are massive

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human rights infringements where a

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militarized riot police would enter

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poor neighborhoods and just kind of

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spray bullets everywhere

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they were. They would kill you,

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would plant guns on their bodies,

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very dirty stuff.

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And, you know, the government came

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out, I think, in 2019

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saying the policies were a mistake

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that we've killed up to and they

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estimate 7000 people.

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So the situation I saw in Venezuela

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was it

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is hard to compare to

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another country in Latin America,

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even to try to compare to a country

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that's not in a state of war.

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And to be honest, just the level of

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of the poverty.

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But, you know, fixing that context,

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I visited in spring

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2022, and this was the first

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year of like positive growth

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that Venezuelans have seen since

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2014.

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So I guess the short lesson

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here, the quick lesson I want to get

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out is when you elect a leftist

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government, you have to be willing

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to fight because there will be

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pressure on on the government,

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on the social movements, on the

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people that actually benefit from

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government policies.

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And it's really Venezuela has been

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punished for for daring to stand up.

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So how are social movements

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responding to these

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conditions?

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Because when I think of South

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American social movements, I think

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of them, I guess was.

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Any country

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being either on the offense or

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on the defense.

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And typically, when you're

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successful in electing

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a progressive government,

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you can start to refocus

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your energies rather than

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constantly fighting back.

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But this seems to be a very unique

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situation in Venezuela where.

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Yeah.

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How are they responding?

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So, no, that's a great question.

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I think the the one of the

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like one of the organizations

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that I spoke to

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that actually has a lot of relevance

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for for what we see here in Canada,

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especially with like the

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industrialization.

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You know, you see it in Hamilton,

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you see it in small towns all around

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Ontario. Just the town

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factory leaves

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and gets converted into a bunch of

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call centers.

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And people have to kind of grapple

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with this this change into the

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service sector.

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I visited a city called Frederick

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Does, and it's in both of our states

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very, very much in the interior of

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the country, in the Amazon.

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And the city was designed in the

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fifties to export raw materials

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with light processing and send it

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out to the world market.

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So it's one of the most factory

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dense parts of the country country.

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But during the crisis,

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a series of factory factory owners

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would would just abandon their

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plants.

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Would seek to kind of strip the

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plants of their like machines

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and sell it for parts, whatever they

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had. And this isn't in part

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due to government policy, like

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the government was trying to

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institute wage reforms,

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like increase the minimum wage,

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have longer times for poor parental

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leaves, basic things like this.

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The government attempted to pass

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some of these wage reforms during

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like in the middle of this crisis.

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And at that point, a few of the

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bosses tried to leave.

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Now, workers themselves

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actually ended up blockading their

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factories.

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So there's this one great piece

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on Venezuela analysis.

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I met some of these workers, but

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Sarah Pascall and Martina and Chris

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Gilbert's two

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contributors to Venezuela analysis

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professors at

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the Boulevard University in Caracas

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and sat down and interviewed these

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workers and talked to them about

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their first experiences,

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kind of with these like

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rapid changes to the standard of

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living and the prospect of the boss

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leaving the plant.

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And these workers said, you know, at

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first we tried to form a union.

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We tried to unionize and

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actually kind of just institute wage

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demands.

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But then when we saw the boss was

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actually trying to sell the

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the factory for scraps, the factory

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we've worked out for 40, 50

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years, some of us, we blockaded

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the factory and we stopped the

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movement out of of goods.

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And they did this in in Dhaka,

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like a steel production plant that

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services like the oil

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industry.

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They they held the perimeter

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for two years and having

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24 hour watches, they slept

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in the bushes. They had iguanas.

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Some of their their members

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went out and got jobs in other

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plants so they could still fund the

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blockade of this plant.

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And after about two years,

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they applied to have it

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expropriated.

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This didn't work.

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The government was really not

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willing to expropriate the plants.

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So they have a very different

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set of property laws than than we

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have in Canada.

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But they ended up applying

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for a specific title for the factory

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to be a social property enterprise,

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and it allowed the workers to

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form a mixed commission with the

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boss. So there would be two

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representatives from the workers and

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one from the boss, and they would

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run the plants.

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Now, in the case of India worker,

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the bosses didn't want to

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participate.

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So the governments, according to the

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law, gave the third position to the

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workers. So the workers elected

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their own managers and restarted

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production themselves, and

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they're actually still operating

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today. So I think they seized the

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plant finally in 2019,

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and they're fulfilling service

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contracts and they're going forward

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now. Workers from like and this is

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like I've been to picket lines in

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Canada where this has happened,

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where the bosses removed

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the machinery. This happened at GM

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and Oshawa.

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There's US steel plants in Hamilton

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that have been on strike like this

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for almost a decade.

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Really.

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So I think that's a core lesson

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here. Like we actually like it for

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taking industrial action.

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We have to get to the point of,

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okay, we can't let the boss take

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away the means of production from

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the factories themselves or else

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we're going to be guaranteed out of

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jobs. They're not going to bring

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this stuff back.

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That's just the obvious truth.

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And in this case of in Endora,

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there were they were very aware of

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this. But these workers went on

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to join up with two other

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occupied factories.

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One is called there is so it's a

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factory seized from a French

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conglomerate.

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And

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they they with these factories,

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they formed an organization called

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the Productive Workers Army.

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And it's a very new organization.

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And they go around to different

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social movements and

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what we call communes in Venezuela,

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other kind of collective

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organizations that kind of

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have their own democratic

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structures, have assemblies,

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and they actually control

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production.

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A lot of communes are based in like

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the countryside.

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So I'm based in small towns and

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more or less village communities.

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So they go to these communes

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and they actually build infrastructure

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for them to

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be able to like produce goods.

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So like coffee

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grinding machines for, for communal

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grows, working with in

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the coffee sector, for instance,

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which I tend to rent

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as my academic way.

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I'm sitting here wondering what the

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response would be should

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that have been tried at the GM

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plant?

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And I know you talked about like

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property laws being different,

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but I can only imagine

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that would not last two years.

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Like we would see police

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intervention.

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And I'm just so used to

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blockades and movements being

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thwarted by injunctions,

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simple injunctions.

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So.

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How do we get from that

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where we are now to that far more

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militant approach to.

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Individual workplaces.

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And to be clear, they were

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non-unionized.

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They it was a it was an interesting

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situation. They had a union, but it

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was more of a yellow union.

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So it was really in the pocket of

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management. And they really felt

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that, you know, the state and the

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bosses were kind of working against

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them in that respect.

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Like their union officials

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would really kind of have these

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backdoor meetings with with the

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employer.

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So they were trying to actually

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escape the one union they had

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in in Dwarka and move

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into a more autonomous union where

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they had more control of the

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situation.

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But I think that.

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That's a whole other conversation as

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well. Right, because a lot of.

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I'm trying to simplify it a little

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because the the politics

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gets a little thick or can get a

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little thick and.

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Because yeah. Just opens up all

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these other questions that I have

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to our labor movement and

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alternatives because quite often

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folks here use the

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traditional avenues, right?

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Get elected a delegate

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run for office, take over

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the union, you know, or

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mobilize the rank and file to

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do something similar, like put

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pressure through those same simple

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systems.

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But what you're describing is,

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again, just so unique to what

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I thought was possible, I guess

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I'm so stuck in in

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this kind of Canadian perspective,

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I think.

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Santiago, like, what do you feel?

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Yeah, just thinking.

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Like, I'm also contrasting

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with how militant

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unions across Latin America

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have played such an influential

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role.

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Like the national thing I started

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thinking about was, you know,

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in in Bolivia

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after

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the coup against Evo Morales,

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it was the unions

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that led to the rebuilding

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of the movement that then

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got the Movimiento

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Socialism Party elected

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again afterwards and how involved

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the unions were in resisting against

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the authoritarian regime that had

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been created. Right.

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And this seems to be

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something that's quite common across

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Latin America, which is

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that organized

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militant labor is at the center

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of so many struggles.

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Though, certainly, I mean, like

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this, cases in Argentina where

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people were doing the exact same

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thing that I saw in Venezuela,

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seizing their factories, this is it.

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Like, you know, in the early 2000s

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with the really like

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frontal attacks of neoliberalism

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against, you know, what was barely a

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welfare state in Argentina.

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But I think like one of the some

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of the deficiencies we have, I mean,

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like I guess to contextualize our

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experience, it's even a little more

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there's a very healthy skepticism

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among working class people of of

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trade union leadership and political

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leadership.

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And I think that's when we buy into

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like, oh, yeah, let's do the

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delegate thing. And then we actually

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see from being a delegates the

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limits of what you can do.

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I think the next step and what

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I saw with what they were doing

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was screw, screw this

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apparatus that you have that I can't

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actually do anything positive for

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people and I'm going to try to do

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my own thing.

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And in their case, they.

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Our own thing.

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Our own thing.

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Exactly.

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They were trying to do it, you know,

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our own thing.

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But you know, there are difficulties

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and I guess to contextualize this a

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bit more like in Puerto,

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it does in 2000.

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Since the beginning of the

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Bolivarian Movement has elected

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Chavista representatives

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to the National Assembly and also to

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the state governor government.

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Now, in 2008, there was a

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huge kind of eruption of open

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labor struggle.

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And the governor of believe our

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state had actually called me the

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military, sort of the National

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Guard, to contain the protesters

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of workers.

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Now, at a at the home of this

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demonstration, where all the union

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leaders, you know, same thing in

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Canada, when you go to like a Labor

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Day parade, the union leaderships at

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the front, the National Guard,

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opened fire with live ammunition

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against these union leaders.

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And this is like the Bolivarian

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government doing it against, you

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know, their their own kind of

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people, or at least the Bolivarian

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governor.

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After this, immediately after Chavez

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expropriated the steel sector and

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brought it under state control, he

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realized, he said, like, look, the

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governor clearly screwed up and

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pushing forward

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with repression.

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Chavez, in response to

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kind of this violence against

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working class people, kind of caved

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in to their demands, immediately

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expropriated the sector

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and kind of.

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It really allowed a more kind of

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state centric planning

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of production to kind of occur in

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the steel sector at that point.

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But the government has not always

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been on the working classes side

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and the union bureaucrats as well.

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So there's an incredible

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amount of understanding that, like

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our organizations that we see right

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now are not going to be there

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without us and we can

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easily brush them to the side if

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need be.

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Now, this is a little harder said

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than done, kind

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of given the context, but overall

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there was the you know, despite

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the amount of kind of like poverty,

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the odds against them, like

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the workers in these occupied

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factories are blacklisted.

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Like they have trouble finding

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supplies. They have trouble finding

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contracts because what kind

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of capitalist wants to actually deal

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with these kinds of plants?

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Who who would really want to

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encourage this? This is a very

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dangerous example for other

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people.

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And it's it becomes embarrassing,

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actually, to to the governments

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in some instances,

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to be to be precise,

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the productive workers army was

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asked to repair

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kind of a gas like

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a gas tank. And this is one of the

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biggest

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gas tanks, I guess, in the world and

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one of the biggest refineries in

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Venezuela.

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And the manager of this specific

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plant said it would it would cost

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about, you know, 2.5 million

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American to import kind of

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a new tank.

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They went in and fixed it for free.

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They patched it up and

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it completely worked.

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So this is the example of like

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working class dynamism and the

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ability of like working people to

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actually fix these problems.

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Management on one hand, was was

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willing to write off a $2

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million check.

Speaker:

Despite the extremely hard

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circumstances the country is facing

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and through solidarity and

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collective action, these workers

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managed to come together and

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and just fix the key industry

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in the country.

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And I've actually seen pictures of

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this battle, and it's the most Latin

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American thing ever.

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There's these engineers working on

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and stuff and there's a guy with a

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cuatro just playing guitar to

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like amp up the mood of of

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the people there to, you know, other

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work and just to get them energized.

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See, I don't know if I've worked in

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really bad places, but this

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is a unique camaraderie

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that seems to exist

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naturally, just the way

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folks unite beside

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one another in the workplace.

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Like, whereas that doesn't always

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happen here, you know, even

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in a unionized workplace,

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but also that sense of ownership

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over the means of production.

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Like, almost like they know they

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really own it or should own it

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and are incensed at the idea

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that it would go to waste, that it

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would be sold off.

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And I think

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that's where we really lack

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and that's unfathomable

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to us.

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Most workers here, you know, that's

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the boss, is he?

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That's company property.

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I mean, even even the stuff

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we take home is like that's theirs,

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even though we're the only ones that

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work on it and it's, it's how we do.

Speaker:

But that seems very unique.

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And even as you describe the

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music that goes alongside of it.

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Not to say we don't sing on our

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picket lines, but it just seems

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much more familial than

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the workplaces that that I've

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been.

Speaker:

I don't know, you guys work anywhere

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like that where you're just like,

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that's it, we're not going

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to take this anymore.

Speaker:

And I mean, I can tell you, like as

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a musician, that people look at me

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like I'm crazy.

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If I start playing music in the

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workplace.

Speaker:

Maybe they're remembering Santiago.

Speaker:

During during election night,

Speaker:

I brought my flute to

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the newsroom because I'm a

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journalism student, and this

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was like the most normal thing in my

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head. And everybody looked at

Speaker:

me like I was insane

Speaker:

for sure.

Speaker:

But honestly, like,

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we need to bring back

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working music, you know, and that

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that is the cultural stuff.

Speaker:

And I talk about that a lot too.

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That like and that's

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what.

Speaker:

I don't mean to get on a bit of a

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tenure here, but that is a big part

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of like building.

Speaker:

Movement is also building like

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community and to build community.

Speaker:

Culture is an element of that.

Speaker:

And art and music and

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dancing and like these things

Speaker:

go is a part of that.

Speaker:

And I feel like sometimes we forget

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about that. And you just reminded me

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about that because, you know, like

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that is that is a very Latino

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thing, right? Like, yeah,

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I can picture that in my head

Speaker:

already. And again, that's amazing.

Speaker:

But like you said, like culture is

Speaker:

like the soul of the comments, you

Speaker:

know what I mean? It's this thing

Speaker:

that could just very easily unite

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us all.

Speaker:

And I mean, like, I've worked in

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restaurants for much of my life and

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when like a catchy song kind of

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starts playing and like, we're all

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in the back, the coworkers, the

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chefs will start singing along.

Speaker:

And, you know, I've seen that kind

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of smile, that warm feeling you get,

Speaker:

but still, like, you know, it's it's

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not the same kind of militancy.

Speaker:

It's not the same willingness to

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sacrifice, like

Speaker:

when when Cuba had this, you know,

Speaker:

almost strike.

Speaker:

You know, I was I was thinking, you

Speaker:

know, is Fred Horne going to get put

Speaker:

in cuffs? Like what's what's going

Speaker:

to happen next? Right.

Speaker:

I wanted to see this.

Speaker:

I'm like, yeah, man. Like I didn't

Speaker:

pay my dues as a kid.

Speaker:

You ever for years you're standing

Speaker:

up for us and like, man, Fred Hung

Speaker:

like I was on strike with you.

Speaker:

Be three. No. Three. I work with

Speaker:

York. So we're the first union

Speaker:

that Doug Ford legislated back

Speaker:

to work. And I think we were the

Speaker:

first law he passed to legislate us

Speaker:

back to work.

Speaker:

And Fred Heineman, he gave a speech

Speaker:

when we were at Queen's Park.

Speaker:

And I'm like, yes, let's storm

Speaker:

this place and throw this guy.

Speaker:

Oh, it's like he just gets you

Speaker:

going.

Speaker:

But yeah, I really want to see that

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from our union leaders in this

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country. Like go to jail.

Speaker:

Really? Like fight for us,

Speaker:

fight, fight for our right for wage

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increases. Fight for us to to be

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able to live with dignity.

Speaker:

There's not enough of these people

Speaker:

in the movements or the people

Speaker:

who are in there are extremely

Speaker:

comfortable.

Speaker:

No. Yeah, I agree so strongly

Speaker:

with that and I know that's a

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lot to ask, but

Speaker:

at the same time there's people who

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are willing to make that sacrifice,

Speaker:

who are willing to put their

Speaker:

life on the line in that kind of

Speaker:

way. And I feel

Speaker:

like, yeah, like if

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we're going to get anywhere, we're

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going to have to be a little

Speaker:

uncomfortable sometimes.

Speaker:

And I feel like the second

Speaker:

things get uncomfortable in Canada

Speaker:

is when things fall

Speaker:

apart.

Speaker:

And.

Speaker:

No, I mean, just as.

Speaker:

What do you think about this?

Speaker:

It just makes me think of how

Speaker:

Canadian politics and politicians

Speaker:

have been.

Speaker:

The sounds of a watered down

Speaker:

and where you

Speaker:

need that fiery, vibrant

Speaker:

militancy.

Speaker:

Like we're in a class war and we

Speaker:

really do lack somebody standing

Speaker:

up there telling us to take up

Speaker:

proverbial arms.

Speaker:

Aside from the music, like I think

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we joked around about that.

Speaker:

But the more that we talk

Speaker:

about that, it's it is part

Speaker:

of that culture and that

Speaker:

black color that needs to

Speaker:

be part of any movement that

Speaker:

also makes it fun and emotional.

Speaker:

And it just seems to stand

Speaker:

in such contrast to what

Speaker:

we want or what the political

Speaker:

class here in Canada seem

Speaker:

to want. Right.

Speaker:

We've done a lot of discussions

Speaker:

about the NDP and

Speaker:

their desire to have candidates who

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don't stir the pot, who don't use

Speaker:

inflammatory language.

Speaker:

And this seems to be quite

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the opposite.

Speaker:

And I just I love how we're hitting

Speaker:

on all of these key things that are

Speaker:

missing but aren't

Speaker:

things that are out of our reach.

Speaker:

You know, what this just reminded me

Speaker:

of, too, was

Speaker:

I just remembered a speech

Speaker:

that Lula gave, and

Speaker:

I cannot remember exactly what he

Speaker:

said. But before he went to jail,

Speaker:

um, I remember

Speaker:

he gave this, this very iconic

Speaker:

speech, and he was inspiring

Speaker:

people, you know that.

Speaker:

They may be locking him up, but that

Speaker:

the movement like has to continue

Speaker:

that.

Speaker:

He was.

Speaker:

He turned himself in.

Speaker:

Like he was willing to go

Speaker:

to jail.

Speaker:

To keep everything alive, you know,

Speaker:

and.

Speaker:

That's I feel like that's exactly

Speaker:

kind of like what we're talking

Speaker:

about. And I just remember that

Speaker:

because that was such a powerful

Speaker:

moment and.

Speaker:

We don't see that here, you know?

Speaker:

No, definitely.

Speaker:

My main concern

Speaker:

when we talk about, you know, how we

Speaker:

can make our labor movement

Speaker:

a lot more militant or mimic

Speaker:

what we see in South America.

Speaker:

And I'd like to ask Alex

Speaker:

if you think that and I know not all

Speaker:

the countries in South America are

Speaker:

the same in the labor movements

Speaker:

within them are definitely not the

Speaker:

same. But typically social

Speaker:

movements are nonhierarchical

Speaker:

or the good ones are.

Speaker:

Right. And what we're aiming for is

Speaker:

a post neoliberal world.

Speaker:

But if we are using institutions

Speaker:

that are in itself colonial and.

Speaker:

Defer still to neoliberalism.

Speaker:

Are they actually

Speaker:

transforming?

Speaker:

Are we end?

Speaker:

Are is is South America

Speaker:

actually ending up

Speaker:

with the kind of progressive

Speaker:

governments that they need

Speaker:

versus ones

Speaker:

that are still somewhat tolerant to

Speaker:

resource extraction from?

Speaker:

External forces.

Speaker:

So.

Speaker:

That's why I'm looking to

Speaker:

the social movements specifically

Speaker:

on how they can maybe transform

Speaker:

something different or demand

Speaker:

something different too, in

Speaker:

the people they put in power.

Speaker:

They're responsible for putting in

Speaker:

power.

Speaker:

I think the question that

Speaker:

you bring up has

Speaker:

has definitely been thought about

Speaker:

and scholarly discussion with no

Speaker:

clear cut answer.

Speaker:

What?

Speaker:

Yeah. There's like there's Jeffrey

Speaker:

Webber, a professor at York,

Speaker:

wrote a book called

Speaker:

Think the Day After the Revolution

Speaker:

as more of the same or something to

Speaker:

this effect about the original

Speaker:

pink tide, saying like, you know, we

Speaker:

elected all these governments, but,

Speaker:

you know, inequality is still very

Speaker:

much entrenched.

Speaker:

We still have the ending

Speaker:

to resource extraction.

Speaker:

And there's still a lot of this in

Speaker:

Pink Tide v2.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

Like Gabriel Bolick,

Speaker:

the guy in Chile, the president

Speaker:

of Chile is like a modest social

Speaker:

Democrat. Like this is like what

Speaker:

you would see in Chile is the the

Speaker:

best you could hope for from Jagmeet

Speaker:

Singh is like NDP

Speaker:

and it's still a high degree of

Speaker:

tolerance for for the multinational

Speaker:

mining companies

Speaker:

in Peru.

Speaker:

It's the same story.

Speaker:

And, you know, we shouldn't sanitize

Speaker:

the legacy of of the first pink

Speaker:

tide, but that's that's exactly

Speaker:

where the social movements come in.

Speaker:

It's to hold the feet to the fire,

Speaker:

to make sure that the promises of

Speaker:

these governments actually

Speaker:

gets kind of taken up where

Speaker:

where I kind of saw

Speaker:

like in Venezuela, we don't have

Speaker:

the exact same parallel with state

Speaker:

repression of the left as

Speaker:

they do there, or just, I guess

Speaker:

about anybody really,

Speaker:

just because the situation has been

Speaker:

so dire, like we're talking about

Speaker:

coup attempts, mercenary incursions

Speaker:

to overthrow the government.

Speaker:

Drone attacks on the president like

Speaker:

it's really bred a

Speaker:

high, high degree

Speaker:

of paranoia, to be honest, from

Speaker:

state leadership.

Speaker:

But, you know, even in the social

Speaker:

movements that have supported the

Speaker:

governments and

Speaker:

social movements that have just

Speaker:

really come from the base

Speaker:

of just regular rank and file

Speaker:

Chavistas have been able to kind of

Speaker:

emerge.

Speaker:

So another group that I spoke to

Speaker:

is called Pueblo El Pueblo.

Speaker:

And there's things transitions

Speaker:

a bit tricky can either mean like

Speaker:

people to people or town to town to

Speaker:

town they so

Speaker:

a bunch of are I guess organizers

Speaker:

again from Chavistas

Speaker:

realized that there was a serious

Speaker:

concern with getting food into

Speaker:

cities, that people were facing

Speaker:

acute hunger.

Speaker:

So they they went into small

Speaker:

communities and communes and

Speaker:

in the countryside

Speaker:

and began organizing kind of network

Speaker:

distribution of of food produced on

Speaker:

these kind of small per,

Speaker:

I guess more or less peasant or mom

Speaker:

and pop farm,

Speaker:

you know, sites of production

Speaker:

and getting their food out into the

Speaker:

cities. And I like when walking

Speaker:

around Caracas, you see these

Speaker:

markets of these these peasants

Speaker:

coming in and kind of

Speaker:

selling their goods at what they

Speaker:

call solidarity prices,

Speaker:

not government subsidized just

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really what the

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farmers could could barebones afford

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to make ends meet selling it to to

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really poor barrio dwellers and

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urban slum dwellers rather.

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But it's interesting, like when,

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when I met some of these these

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folks, I went to a place that

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Chavez built called C

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C without Kariba.

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So not to go on a really long

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tangents, but

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a lot of poor in Latin America, a

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lot of poor communities are built up

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on hills, into mountains.

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And this because of, you know,

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ecological change and even

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like regular seasonal like

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rainstorms, it makes them

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really susceptible to mudslides and

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destruction.

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So from like one day to the next,

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like your house is gone, you don't

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have insurance. It's not the same

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kind of situation that we would

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expect, like here with people facing

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disaster.

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So essentially, Chavez built victims

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of these mudslides, their own

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like little kind of town at the top

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of this mountain

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and going there is some of the most

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breathtaking views I've ever seen in

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my life. Just an amazingly

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beautiful.

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But they were actually supplying

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food to the schools,

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like directly giving it to, like,

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principals.

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So it's a little weird because like

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I was there kind of like as this

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researcher and like I was with some

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of the more like administrative

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staff for blah blah blah and

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there was like one guy hauling all

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this food and I'm like, Guys, come

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on. I'm like, I can't, I can't

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in good conscience, watch this one

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guy lug around like a £60

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bag of, like, corn.

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So, you know, we all got our hands

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dirty and kind of lifted food

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into the school. And it was

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it was it was wild to

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see because like in their

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constitution, children have

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to be given food twice a day in

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schools.

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And the government, what they were

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they were doing were importing food,

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processed food, food, though it

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wasn't actually like of nutritional

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value.

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And I mean, like I'm talking about

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food in schools and like in the

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United States, you know, they have

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like lunch debt, you

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know what I mean? Like.

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Ridiculous concept that is just

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it's terrible.

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It's capitalistic and it's

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parasitic.

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When it comes to talking about food

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in schools, we don't even have to

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look anywhere.

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We can look at Canada because this

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is something I'm actually just

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currently writing articles about,

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which is the fact that Canada's

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ranked 37th out of

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40 something wealthy nations in

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the world for childhood food

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insecurity, where one third of

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kids in Canada don't have

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access to breakfast

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due to food insecurity, where

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something like it's over a

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quarter, something like yeah,

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something like a quarter of Bipoc

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households are struggling with food

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insecurity, something like

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I think it's around a sixth of

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infants struggle with food

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insecurity, which is like.

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Ridiculous number six or an infant.

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Yeah, it's

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yeah. Households with children

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are twice as likely to struggle

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with food insecurity. In Canada,

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we're the only G7 nation without

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a school breakfast program

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which inspired, of course,

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by the Black Panthers.

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Shout out to the Black Panthers.

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Yeah, we're the only one who doesn't

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have that. So Canada is so woefully

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behind in that and I just wanna

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mention because there's that should

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be incredibly radicalizing

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for everybody because there's

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absolutely nothing you can do to

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blame a child for not being able

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to have food and the impact that

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that has on

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increasing the cycle

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of poverty because you know,

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how does that affect their

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education? How does that affect

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their ability to learn to be

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successful in school, to be able to

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be what comes after school?

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Right. And so, yeah, just I want

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to throw that out there because it's

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a huge issue in Canada and

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it's good to see that there's

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something being done about that

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in Latin America, at least.

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And frankly, that is

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I have no idea how we don't have

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a massive movement movement around

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here because it's we're

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at the bottom of the

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of the list, essentially, in terms

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of dealing with that.

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We have like a weird like second

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best is on like you know whatever

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happens we point to the states and

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it's a.

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Weird sort of better than.

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The school thing.

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Yeah. And I just I don't get it.

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It's like they're dead last and.

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Well.

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I think that leads me to my question

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because the Americans like their

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Constitution, is so rife with issues

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and our charter

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itself, you know, doesn't secure

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economic rights.

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So when you mentioned something like

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lunch twice a day,

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like something so very specific,

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a collective responsibility,

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one that makes sure people are fed.

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I mean, that's completely lacking

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from our idea of what governance

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is for at the moment.

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We talk about mutual aid a lot, but

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and it's necessary.

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People are hungry.

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But that is a shift in ideology,

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right? That's normalizing the idea

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that we have to scrape what we can

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and rather than doing it on the

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larger scale that government

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facilitates. So I wonder

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if you think

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it's like the chicken or the egg,

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right? Is it in the Constitution

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because it was an understood ideal,

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a cultural understanding

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or, you know, did they were

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successful?

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Chavez, you know,

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put it in the constitution, I

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assume, you

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know, get a progressive government,

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instill things in the Constitution

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that start to ingrain it from there.

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I ask because, you know, is our

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energy,

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should our energy be spent at any

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some level petitioning

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God petitions, petitioning

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the government to.

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Rewrite our charter and without

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opening that whole debate on.

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Is that possible?

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Is is there value

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in shifting the Constitution

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or does it that have to happen at a

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different level?

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The contrast between how the

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Canadian Constitution was adopted

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and how, like the more recent Latin

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American constitutions were adopted

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is very stark.

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Like we have just a bunch of elites

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write our Constitution and submit

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it through like an amendment

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formula, like in

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Chile. Most recently, I think they

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had like an actual like, you know,

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you vote for a,

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a person to go to a constitutional

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convention.

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So you have like a democratic

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process to bring community concerns.

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And then, you know, unfortunately,

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in Chile, the you know, they drafted

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this constitution, they put it up

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for referendum and it got defeated.

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But, you know, I think

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the point I guess I'm trying to make

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is we have to work with what we

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have.

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And it's you know, I heard a lot

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of like, you know, our glorious

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Constitution, our great

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constitutional rights when I was

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in Venezuela from like militant

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socialists. Right.

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But then when I told them, like, oh,

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you know, the Constitution says

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private property rights, ours in

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Canada doesn't.

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People would look at me gobsmacked.

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They're like, what do you mean?

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Like you don't have guaranteed

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constitutional private property

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rights? And I'd say, Yeah, it's a

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paradox. We have all these

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mining companies that set up shop

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here and commit atrocities

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in sub-Saharan Africa, in Latin

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America, but yet

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their assets aren't constitutionally

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protected.

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Given this, you know, actually

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legislating your way to like a more

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socialist society is quite easy in

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this country.

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They're not it's not a

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constitutional amendment

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to to actually take like

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Bell and Rogers and nationalize

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them, for instance.

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But it's a small change to the

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Property Act.

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It's a legislative change that could

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be passed quite easily.

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That's, again, when I'm with.

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The right people in power.

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Yeah, you have to want power.

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We need leftists who want to

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actually do good things with power.

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And that's what we don't have.

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Well, that's a whole other

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discussion, I suppose.

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We don't have leftists running any

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parties at the moment, so

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we are such a far step from

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that because

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one just needs to, you know, point

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to B.C., where social movements

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did play a part in getting the

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NDP elected with hopes that

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the they would be allies in the

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environmentalist movement and

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could enact some reforms that would

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be lasting, you know, especially

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when you get a majority government.

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So that's you know, that's

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clearly not our way just

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yet.

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I also think it's worth mentioning

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that in

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the vast majority of electoral

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victories in Latin America, these

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were new parties that were created

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in recent history.

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Right.

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And.

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I don't fully know

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what the and I don't and not fully

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I don't know what the answer is in

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Canada, but I,

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I just want to throw that out there

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because, you know, the idea

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of working outside of

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the NDP is

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met with a lot of

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hesitancy.

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And I understand where people

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are coming from when it comes to the

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ascendency. But it is worth noting

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that in Latin America that's

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exactly what people did.

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They worked outside of the

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traditional parties and they won

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in that way.

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And that's worth something.

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Though certainly

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it's there are limits to

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our kind of parliamentary system in

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terms of new parties coming in

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like Dr. to historical in Colombia,

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Petro's party is very new

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and it's exactly what, you know,

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kind of I think what you're referring

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to.

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But it's not difficult to navigate

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when you have social democracy

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that is just, you know, doesn't

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mobilize purposefully

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and then tries to talk about, you

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know, what we are terms like

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reflation and like home heating

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bills for, you know, subsidies for

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your landlord to kind of

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take the sweat off your back

Speaker:

in Latin America.

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There's there's a very much among

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social movements.

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I don't want to be so broad as to

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say all of Latin America, but at

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least kind of what I saw in in

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certain parts of Venezuela, a

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real kind of embracing of

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we're going to come together and

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converge to kind of do these

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specific things.

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And if, you know, our time is done,

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our time is done, I'll move on to

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the next kind of task to organize.

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There's always something pressing.

Speaker:

I have the fortune of being in

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a parish of Caracas called

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the 23rd of January,

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and the social movements there are

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so strong that they actually have an

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oral pact with the police

Speaker:

not to enter the community.

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I saw one cop in this neighborhood

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and this guy was in the subway

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station and he was running to get

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off the train to get into like a

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staff entrance.

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And he didn't want anybody to see

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him.

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Like you'd like you'd walk around

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and you'd see like National

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Guardsmen who are not police, the

Speaker:

army, but they'd be around without

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without their weapons.

Speaker:

Now there's two there's

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a lot of.

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I guess the term is that we see a

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lot of North American news about

Speaker:

Venezuela as colectivo.

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And this is a very kind of fuzzy

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term. Some collectives

Speaker:

act like, you know, pro-government

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thugs

Speaker:

and not just against like, you know,

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right wing insurrectionists against

Speaker:

like, you know, garbage workers

Speaker:

protesting the rights.

Speaker:

Some of these collectives will go in

Speaker:

and act as, you know, thugs or

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security, but other ones

Speaker:

actually form form communes and try

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to actually give back to their

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community.

Speaker:

So this one that I saw, Alexis,

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Vivian, they kind

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of run security for like or

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organize around 22 blocks in

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the 23rd of January.

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They know who gets in the

Speaker:

neighborhood. They have a CCTV

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camera setup.

Speaker:

So it's kind of weird.

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It's like an abolitionist politics,

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but still like we're using the tools

Speaker:

of the oppressor to make sure that

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people aren't dealing drugs in our

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neighborhood. Like we could

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actually, like, look around and see

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strangers coming in.

Speaker:

They have a hotline, like a tip

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line. So it very much works like

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a911 call center, except

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we got the police and they diffuse

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the situation. If there's like a

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drug deal going down, they kick the

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drug dealer out of the area.

Speaker:

They've also done things like

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like they run like their own kind of

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garbage collection that they

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organically use with like pigs.

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So they get these, like, urban pigs

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in this like area to eat

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like garbage that the city won't

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take.

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They have like a swimming pool

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that they filled up with fish and

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they turn it into like a fish, like

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an Olympic sized swimming pool, and

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they turn it into like a fish farm

Speaker:

so that the community can have

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access to the fish whenever they

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wanted to.

Speaker:

This, like, sound like San Diego is

Speaker:

you're smiling like this sounds

Speaker:

crazy like thinking about this in

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Canada, like, you know, and like

Speaker:

just turning a swimming pool into

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this is just absurd.

Speaker:

But it's it's a reality.

Speaker:

Like, if you don't have access to

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garbage or if you don't have access

Speaker:

to, like to to

Speaker:

these kinds of food, like, people

Speaker:

appreciate this, but it's that kind

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of basic level of mutual aid that

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that people are firmly kind of

Speaker:

aware of and behind.

Speaker:

I'm Kelly Santiago's

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smiling because

Speaker:

he envisions the same here.

Speaker:

You know, I think you're you're

Speaker:

reminding him to of

Speaker:

what he'd like to see.

Speaker:

You know, he gave a shout out to the

Speaker:

Black Panthers earlier.

Speaker:

That's for, you know, a reason.

Speaker:

Right. Santiago, you know, like

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these ideas seem to be like your I

Speaker:

see your brain just filling with

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ideas in

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terms of mutual aid and community

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building.

Speaker:

Yeah. Like, if we wait

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for a government

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to come in and

Speaker:

help people, we're going to be

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waiting entirely

Speaker:

too long and people are going to

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continue suffering, you know?

Speaker:

Is this kind of, like, innovative,

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community driven work that.

Speaker:

That we need to start seeing

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more because like I said, like,

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I think there's a misconception as

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to how well off people are doing in

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Canada.

Speaker:

There's a lot of people who are

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living in in a real deep

Speaker:

poverty, a poverty

Speaker:

that is much more invisible

Speaker:

than even like, you know, like in

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the United States is a lot of

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poverty. That poverty is a lot more

Speaker:

visible. You know, you go to a lot

Speaker:

of places in the United States.

Speaker:

You can see the poverty, you can

Speaker:

feel the suffering.

Speaker:

I feel like people in Canada don't

Speaker:

realize that a

Speaker:

very similar situation is happening

Speaker:

here, but it's much more hidden

Speaker:

and.

Speaker:

And what do we do? We just accept

Speaker:

that that's the reality.

Speaker:

Until we can completely change

Speaker:

everything. No.

Speaker:

Like that's we're not going to

Speaker:

completely change everything

Speaker:

tomorrow. And people tomorrow are

Speaker:

going to be hungry.

Speaker:

You know, and I want to see,

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you know, out of building that

Speaker:

kind of community driven solidarity.

Speaker:

That's where it starts.

Speaker:

You know, that's where the movement

Speaker:

should begin.

Speaker:

And not that.

Speaker:

That's that's very much my praxis.

Speaker:

I feel like all these stories that

Speaker:

Alex has are part

Speaker:

of the solution, which is glad I'm

Speaker:

I'm glad we're recording them and in

Speaker:

amplifying them because.

Speaker:

Yeah. Like, we can't just wait until

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it gets so bad that we can't

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envision anything else.

Speaker:

Like, we can draw from

Speaker:

these. And we don't often get to

Speaker:

hear stories of success from South

Speaker:

America.

Speaker:

Obviously, our our news is

Speaker:

completely Eurocentric and any

Speaker:

examples of real people power

Speaker:

does not make our airwaves,

Speaker:

especially these

Speaker:

really specific examples of

Speaker:

workplaces or communities that

Speaker:

you've been able to provide.

Speaker:

I think.

Speaker:

I think it would be great if people

Speaker:

could just hear more of these

Speaker:

and and envision

Speaker:

what's possible.

Speaker:

And I keep saying, like, oh, is it a

Speaker:

cultural thing?

Speaker:

And I think that's just an easy out.

Speaker:

You know, but there is a lot of

Speaker:

work to do in terms of what

Speaker:

people.

Speaker:

Envision how they see themselves

Speaker:

in terms of power structures and

Speaker:

abilities.

Speaker:

I wanted to pivot just before we run

Speaker:

out of time, because I think we

Speaker:

spent a lot of time talking

Speaker:

about social movements in South

Speaker:

American countries where.

Speaker:

They have friendly governments.

Speaker:

But before we started recording.

Speaker:

Well, friendlier governments,

Speaker:

because you've given us some

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examples, you know, food

Speaker:

for thought there. Definitely.

Speaker:

But before we started recording,

Speaker:

Santiago was talking about

Speaker:

how difficult and dangerous

Speaker:

it is to be.

Speaker:

A proponent of the left in

Speaker:

South America.

Speaker:

And although Columbia was

Speaker:

successful,

Speaker:

there's still resistance in South

Speaker:

America. Surely

Speaker:

social movements that are in

Speaker:

the defensive position

Speaker:

I described earlier.

Speaker:

You know.

Speaker:

And just also building on

Speaker:

that. One thing that's important to

Speaker:

mention whenever you're talking

Speaker:

about Latin America is

Speaker:

U.S. imperialism and not

Speaker:

just U.S. imperialism.

Speaker:

Canadian imperialism to.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

And the violence and the danger

Speaker:

that comes from that.

Speaker:

And that's a conversation we like.

Speaker:

I just want to bring that up that

Speaker:

right on top of that

Speaker:

because.

Speaker:

Yeah, like Alec talks about the role

Speaker:

of social movements in other

Speaker:

governments. It's like hold the feet

Speaker:

to the fire.

Speaker:

But how do they.

Speaker:

I'm in where I believe

Speaker:

we don't have the level of state of

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oppression that's

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comparable.

Speaker:

It still would be hostile to a lot

Speaker:

of these endeavors.

Speaker:

Right. You would face maybe

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violent resistance even to

Speaker:

try to attempt some of the things

Speaker:

that Alex is talking about.

Speaker:

So and it kind of brings back to the

Speaker:

land back discussion where there's

Speaker:

this immense sense of courage,

Speaker:

despite the paranoia that might

Speaker:

exist, rightfully so.

Speaker:

The knowledge that in U.S.

Speaker:

imperialism is always looming

Speaker:

and other repercussions

Speaker:

of.

Speaker:

Not toeing the line of neoliberalism

Speaker:

embargos, but still

Speaker:

that that courage that exists

Speaker:

and that determination that these

Speaker:

movements.

Speaker:

Are responsible for these

Speaker:

turns in history, right,

Speaker:

where it wasn't always just

Speaker:

appealing to the government or

Speaker:

the Constitution, but actual

Speaker:

fights on their hand.

Speaker:

Can anybody lend some insight

Speaker:

as to.

Speaker:

So in like being a

Speaker:

left winger and Venezuela is

Speaker:

very different than that in

Speaker:

Colombia,

Speaker:

like, you know, just

Speaker:

just from my reading, not like my

Speaker:

lived experiences, people going

Speaker:

through like checkpoints of like a

Speaker:

U.S., I think they call it like

Speaker:

self-defense units,

Speaker:

which are like landlord backed

Speaker:

militia, as if they know you're a

Speaker:

leftist, like they'll execute you.

Speaker:

Right. Right there.

Speaker:

It's it's dangerous.

Speaker:

And these organizations were

Speaker:

backed by the presidency for the

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past three, three or four

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presidents, at least.

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So it's it's quite, quite hard

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in that context.

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But sorry, go ahead.

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No, even I was just thinking even

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longer. Like that's been

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100 years plus of

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that kind of resistance.

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Certainly in Venezuela, given

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like the Bolivarian Revolution, a

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lot of the like older people I would

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talk to had like a, you know, for

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memories of what it was like living

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in the sixties, the seventies and

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the eighties.

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Remember the state repression and

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they remember like, you know, their

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neighbors disappearing after, you

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know, you know, scattered

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bombing like leftist propaganda on

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campus or like

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hiding a gun in their like house

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for like a friend who was involved

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in the insurgency, things

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like this. But again, like not the

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same kind of politics in the

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same exact way.

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But. On the role of.

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Of US U.S.

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imperialism and Canadian

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imperialism. It's

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I don't understand the Canadian

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foreign policy anymore.

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Like it literally doesn't make

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sense. It's nobody else is

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is hostile to this government or

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these people anymore.

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We're really telling in the U.S.

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and we're even we're tail ending and

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opposition like we're so involved

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in this other nations democracy

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that we're recognizing another

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government that doesn't exist.

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The government of Juan Guaido,

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which officially and kind of the

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Canadian like diplomatic

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channels, they don't talk to Maduro.

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There's no like embassy in Venezuela

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anymore.

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There's no communication,

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like to get my visa to go into

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Venezuela, to go to Mexico City.

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Right. Like it's there's you know,

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the government here needs to really

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like end the hostility

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against the Venezuelan government

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because it only hurts the people

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and it actually makes the society

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more corrupt to get around

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the blockade.

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The government passed something

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called the anti blockade law

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and in this they said all private,

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all procurement of government

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contracts is to be conducted

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secretly.

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This is not transparent, but this is

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because of the blockade.

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This is literally because of one

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incident, incident where they were

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trying to sell oil to a refinery in

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India.

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The United States got wind of this

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and then sent a message to

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the owners of this refinery saying,

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if you accept this shipment of

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Venezuelan oil, we will blacklist

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you from the American market.

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We will no longer accept anything

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that you produce in the United

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States that for any company

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is is suicide.

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Right. So immediately they they you

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know, they backed off and they did

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the refinery refused to process

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the Venezuelan oil.

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So they passed this anti blockade

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law.

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And now, like, nobody nobody knows,

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like even like government supporters

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are like we have no idea what the

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government's doing with the budget.

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We have no idea who the government's

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paying for what and how much.

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And in this, if you think about it,

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there's huge opportunities for graft

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and corruption.

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But and these are like the direct

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effects of the sanctions to make

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a democratic regime right.

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To actually make it actually makes

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the situation worse and unlivable,

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not just on the population, but at

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the level of government procurement

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and finances.

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And one can only imagine

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these acts and

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lack of transparency are just

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going to be used to demonize

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that government who are simply

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acting in response.

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But I guess we, we know that game

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over and over.

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Yeah. Oh, yeah.

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Oh, it's, it's like you

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create a situation in which the

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government has to be secret and then

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you call them corrupt.

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Like, from our perspective, 100%.

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But from the perspective of social

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movement activists, it's

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a blind that it's hard to get

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around.

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Right? It's like you want to keep

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these people honest, but you don't

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have the means to.

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Right. So it's there's a element of

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despair. I don't want to throw a

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shred of hope, but,

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you know, their situation does come

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with these these nuances that are

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that are so difficult.

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It does make me think

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and I've been thinking about this a

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lot lately, which is now

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that there there is

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such a widespread movement around

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Latin America.

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You know, historically, there has

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been such a dependance economically

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on the United States,

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you know, in the West in general.

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But Latin America is a very

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it is a very rich region

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in terms of rich and resource

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rich. And the land

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is very.

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Fertile.

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You know.

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For me I would like to see

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going forward is more.

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Unity within Latin America

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and working together, these

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governments working together

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so that they don't have to rely as

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much on the U.S., on the United

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States.

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And I have heard, you know,

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Lula was starting to say something

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about maybe a common currency.

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I know that's been tried.

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Something like that in the past.

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It hasn't necessarily

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taken off yet.

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But for all of South America.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Some I think what they're looking at

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as they look at the European Union

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and they say, you know, something

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similar to that.

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And I don't know.

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But I do think that, like, there

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needs to be something.

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So that when when it comes to like

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these blockades, you know something

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that Venezuela but also Cuba

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has endured for

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such a long time

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that those would lose the

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power that they have.

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If the region learned

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to work together?

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I don't know.

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Alex would.

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Know. There's so much more strength.

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You know, if we if we put, like,

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petty provincialism aside.

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Right. And actually see, like,

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continental unity.

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Lula's proposal,

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I think it was in the run up to the

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elections, it was one of these very

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hopeful, kind of energetic bringing

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us together, not hostile,

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which was a very

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stark counterpoint to Bolsonaro's

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politics in Latin America was

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extremely divisive, talking down to

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other leaders, that kind of stuff.

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But I mean, Hugo Chavez talked

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about this in the early 2000, talked

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about having a one

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solid currency.

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It's it's, you know, just

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the way kind of elections play out

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across the region.

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Not like we didn't have petrol

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elected ten, ten, 15 years ago.

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Right. Things would have been very

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different. And I mean, on that note,

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having leftist leaders in power

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in these different countries

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actually helps people a lot.

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Like one of the first things Pedro

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did was open up the Venezuela

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Colombia border to

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free trade. He really took the power

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by doing this. He took the power

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away from, you know, cartels

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and gangs, more or less,

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and allowed people to just, you

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know, freely enter and exit

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neighboring countries and people on

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the border. It's it's an interesting

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region because the border

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doesn't exist. Right?

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Like think about like the Alberta

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the border between like Alberta and

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like the United States.

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If you could walk around the border

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and across the border, you wouldn't

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even know.

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I wonder, in an attempt

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to combat U.S.

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imperialism and the forces

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that we're talking about, do social

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movements engage in a lot of

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cross-national work?

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I know we talked about Lula and

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Chavez.

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That's government level.

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That's, you know, expected to be

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working with with your neighbors.

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But is

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there a sense that there is

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social movements of South

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America, not of each individual

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country? Because I think, you know,

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as a guy, I hate

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this word as a Westerner.

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We often envision the continents

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as

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wholes.

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Right. And the way that South

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America has been treated by the

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United States has been a little

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bit in the same manner

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right there, dealing with things

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that we don't have to deal with

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here.

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So, yeah.

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Do you find that social movements

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have engaged in cross-national work

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to to build out those

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movements across borders,

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especially with indigenous

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movements, I would think.

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No. Yeah, definitely like 100 and

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like some of like every every case

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there was, there were people talking

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about cross-national work.

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Every society, every organization

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that I talk to in the 23rd

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of January, when you walk around,

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you see murals of martyrs.

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And I guess one of the gentlemen I

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was I was interviewing Esteban

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Helena.

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I'd ask him about like, you know,

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were there anybody was there anybody

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who went abroad to like.

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I well, I guess we're talking more

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about the guerrilla struggles.

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So was there anybody who went to,

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like, you know,

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El Salvador to fight?

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And he said, yeah.

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And then he starts listing names

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like dozens of people.

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And then he's like, Oh, yeah. And in

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Nicaragua, these were the people.

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And then he's like, Oh, yeah, one

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guy over here in this house is we're

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walking like when we were kids, like

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he he left when he was 18 to fight

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for the Sandinistas.

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So there's a there's an incredible

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amount of cross-pollination.

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I mean, like, look at the Cuban

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revolutionary chick if I was an

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Argentine.

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Like they call him Che because of

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his like straight up Argentine

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accent.

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So there's an incredible amount of

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cross-pollination

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from organized workers

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who are looking to,

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you know, occupied factories in

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Brazil and in Catalonia, for

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instance, for for help

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and guidance and more

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or less instruction to

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to farmers who

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I saw were organizing

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like Zoom seminars with like

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Mexican farmers as well, to talk

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about how to fight GMOs

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and kind of contamination in their

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community.

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Yeah, there's there's a an

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an incredible push by people

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from the basis of Venezuelan

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society to connect with other Latin

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Americans.

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And I mean, the fact that everybody

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speaks the same language is

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incredibly helpful.

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No doubt.

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That's something that's clearly

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lacking.

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I know a lot of internationalists

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understand the need for a global

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structure.

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Sorry, a lot of internationalists

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understand the need for a global

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struggle, but we

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don't often engage

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with it, most of us, in any kind of

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meaningful way.

Speaker:

I feel like there's.

Speaker:

I took crazy notes during this

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interview. I normally am just

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writing down what question

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I can ask next or

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circle back to something.

Speaker:

But I feel like in this one I was

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taking genuine notes

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on where work

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needs to be done, how,

Speaker:

you know any individual one of us

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can play a role in that.

Speaker:

I don't know.

Speaker:

But.

Speaker:

So many lessons, Santiago,

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you know, do you not

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feel that way? Is that like why you

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were excited for this particular

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interview with Alex?

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Oh, yeah. No, I feel like.

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No. Yeah. We, we could spend

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hours and hours and hours and hours

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and do multiple

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series of episodes on

Speaker:

all of the points that have been

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raised and all of the points

Speaker:

that have been raised to, you know.

Speaker:

Yes, my my page is still full of

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questions that we will never we

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won't have time for.

Speaker:

But and I do think that

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I think that we have to do that as

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well. You know, I feel like

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that's something that's not

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being talked about enough.

Speaker:

And we look at things through

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such such a narrow field,

Speaker:

you know, like especially I

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mean, we're all Toronto

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or Toronto adjacent.

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Right. And even, like,

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thinking about stuff outside of

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Ontario is often

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not even thought about.

Speaker:

And I feel like looking at.

Speaker:

These different issues and how

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they're playing out across the

Speaker:

world. I mean, one thing,

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you know, I wanted to mention

Speaker:

is I hadn't mentioned this earlier

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and I was waiting for like the

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appropriate time. But, you know,

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as somebody who is an immigrant from

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Latin America,

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you know, I always kind of grappled

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with.

Speaker:

The issue of, you know, what's going

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on back at home and

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should I be there?

Speaker:

Should I be here?

Speaker:

What am I doing here?

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You know, why am I fighting

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here? Why am I not fighting in

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Colombia? Why am I not doing the

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work there?

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And.

Speaker:

I guess the answer that I always

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kind of told myself was.

Speaker:

That Canada,

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the U.S., these Western

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pillars of imperialism.

Speaker:

Breaking apart and fighting

Speaker:

against those structures of

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imperialism and colonialism within

Speaker:

these countries will allow.

Speaker:

Comrades back at home

Speaker:

to be more successful in their

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struggle.

Speaker:

And that's a feeling

Speaker:

that has been shared by a lot of

Speaker:

other Latin

Speaker:

immigrants

Speaker:

in Canada that I've worked with,

Speaker:

that I've talked to.

Speaker:

That's something that comes up a lot

Speaker:

is, you know, we have to do the work

Speaker:

here so that they can do the work

Speaker:

there.

Speaker:

And just the way I feel

Speaker:

like, you know, we forget how

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connected everything is, but

Speaker:

it's much more connected than

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than we discuss.

Speaker:

All of these issues playing to each

Speaker:

other and what's going on there

Speaker:

that will have repercussions here

Speaker:

because the wealth,

Speaker:

the prosperity of Western societies

Speaker:

is built on the blood

Speaker:

of Latin-America.

Speaker:

On the blood of Africa, on the blood

Speaker:

of Asia.

Speaker:

You know, the exploitation

Speaker:

of poor nations is how we

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got the wealth.

Speaker:

And as these nations begin to

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be more and more successful in their

Speaker:

fight against that and I mean, as of

Speaker:

right now, I have to say, like U.S.

Speaker:

imperialism is not as strong in

Speaker:

Latin America as it was.

Speaker:

The fact that Pedro

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managed to win, the fact

Speaker:

that in Chile, Peru,

Speaker:

Argentina, Brazil,

Speaker:

Mexico, you know.

Speaker:

There have been so many recent

Speaker:

victories.

Speaker:

That was not possible

Speaker:

before.

Speaker:

And what and those are going to have

Speaker:

consequences here.

Speaker:

And figuring out

Speaker:

what's working there and how it

Speaker:

connects us here.

Speaker:

That's that's something that.

Speaker:

You know, I want to explore more.

Speaker:

I feel

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I don't know enough and I want to

Speaker:

know so much more.

Speaker:

You know.

Speaker:

It was, like, so hard reconciling

Speaker:

my place as a researcher from from

Speaker:

the global north, just being on

Speaker:

there and asking these questions.

Speaker:

And I felt kind of like where you

Speaker:

were saying, like, I'm not a Latin

Speaker:

American by any means, but it's

Speaker:

it's like like, what can I do to

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help these struggles advanced in

Speaker:

this country that, you know, I've

Speaker:

studied and then I've met people

Speaker:

and, you know, I've I've I've tried

Speaker:

to kind of break bread and make

Speaker:

communion with them.

Speaker:

And that's that's a hard thing we

Speaker:

have to ask ourselves to, like,

Speaker:

where can we approach

Speaker:

to to find resources and

Speaker:

kind of connect, connect the right

Speaker:

people. And I've

Speaker:

been trying to help the work just on

Speaker:

a personal note that the productive

Speaker:

workers army is doing, because

Speaker:

they're they're actually trying to

Speaker:

like build stuff for working people

Speaker:

to manage on their own.

Speaker:

Like they'll go into workplaces

Speaker:

and set up factory councils, letting

Speaker:

the workers elect their own managers

Speaker:

and restarting production.

Speaker:

This is like some some

Speaker:

stuff that I you know, it's hard to

Speaker:

that for a Canadian brain to just

Speaker:

fathom this.

Speaker:

So I've been trying to go to

Speaker:

different unions asking for money

Speaker:

for for them.

Speaker:

You know, that's the the least I can

Speaker:

do.

Speaker:

I can do for their time, their

Speaker:

stories, and just their example

Speaker:

that they keep on living day in and

Speaker:

day out.

Speaker:

But on a on a writer, you know,

Speaker:

like, you know, you can always go

Speaker:

back. And I'm not saying, like,

Speaker:

don't write.

Speaker:

I met a guy who sort of.

Speaker:

Visited lately that

Speaker:

that is on my mind.

Speaker:

It's it's possible and I can't

Speaker:

imagine what you must have felt like

Speaker:

like watching the national strike in

Speaker:

Colombia being like and I'm here in

Speaker:

winter like people are

Speaker:

people are fighting the state and

Speaker:

I'm just I'm stuck.

Speaker:

No, you have no idea.

Speaker:

And one of my one of

Speaker:

my closest friends

Speaker:

said here,

Speaker:

he's also from Colombia.

Speaker:

And we talk about this a lot, which

Speaker:

is, you know, there is a threshold,

Speaker:

there is a line, and

Speaker:

we don't know where it is, where

Speaker:

it's like, okay, it does it

Speaker:

just doesn't make any sense anymore

Speaker:

for us to be here and we

Speaker:

should go back.

Speaker:

And I don't know.

Speaker:

I just wanted to throw out there.

Speaker:

There's a writer for Venezuela

Speaker:

analysis. His name is Ricardo Vaz,

Speaker:

and he's he's a white Mozambican.

Speaker:

Parents were involved in the

Speaker:

liberation movement there on the

Speaker:

side of the A Frelimo

Speaker:

grew up there, went to school in

Speaker:

Germany, and midway through his

Speaker:

Ph.D. was like, What on earth am I

Speaker:

doing?

Speaker:

I got to leave and I got to

Speaker:

I got to go to the Bolivarian

Speaker:

Revolution. Like I've been reading

Speaker:

about this for years.

Speaker:

So he picked up his bags and

Speaker:

just flew to Venezuela.

Speaker:

And he's been there, I think, for

Speaker:

four or five years reporting

Speaker:

on the ground, kind of doing

Speaker:

analysis of like what these social

Speaker:

movements are doing.

Speaker:

And it was really, really solid work

Speaker:

and I was touched. I'm like, you

Speaker:

don't hear stories like in Canada.

Speaker:

The picture of immigration

Speaker:

we have is like desperate people

Speaker:

fleeing from abroad, settling here

Speaker:

and loving us, you know?

Speaker:

And that's not true, right?

Speaker:

Like, people can leave the

Speaker:

global north, go to the global south

Speaker:

and actually effect positive change.

Speaker:

Right. And just as you were laughing

Speaker:

at that, I think.

Speaker:

Because I'm just picturing my

Speaker:

partner listening to this part of

Speaker:

the podcast cringing

Speaker:

because often when I am super

Speaker:

frustrated with Canadian politics

Speaker:

and I have no ties

Speaker:

to South America ex

Speaker:

except being drawn to

Speaker:

the hopeful possibilities

Speaker:

and, and history.

Speaker:

And that's it.

Speaker:

We're going to Bolivia or

Speaker:

Venezuela or wherever.

Speaker:

I feel like, you know, I would

Speaker:

be most effective in that moment.

Speaker:

I probably just get in the way, to

Speaker:

be honest. But, you know, and it's

Speaker:

just laughter in response or don't

Speaker:

be silly or this look of horror,

Speaker:

right. Like and so

Speaker:

but hearing Santiago, that hits a

Speaker:

different note. You know, I could

Speaker:

not imagine having those

Speaker:

ties and

Speaker:

feeling that pull like

Speaker:

what I feel is completely different.

Speaker:

And

Speaker:

yeah, it grows more of out of a

Speaker:

frustration and

Speaker:

completely different place than what

Speaker:

you shared with us.

Speaker:

Santiago.

Speaker:

But Alex.

Speaker:

What will you do with this

Speaker:

knowledge?

Speaker:

I think after my field work, I hit

Speaker:

a point where I'm like, Academia is

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not for me.

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This is like, yeah, this.

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I can't just like I've talked

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to these people doing these like

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great things to actually like effect

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positive social change, to

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even just survive with dignity

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and think of like being a professor

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is what I want, you know,

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I'm going to finish my dissertation,

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hopefully rights and try

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my best to amplify these voices.

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Sierra and Chris, who I mentioned

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earlier, they run a school, a

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podcast called The Scholar, the

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Quadros.

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And you know, they do great work,

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for instance, and I've seen the way

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they do interviews.

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Like when you read like a scholarly

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books, interviews, it's 90% of it is

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the words of the scholar.

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But when I read Syrian Christians

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work, they're not even

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the voices. And on the page it's

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just quotes

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from from people just like these

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block quotes of like, this is what

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somebody said to me about like this

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topic about a factory

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seizure, about producing

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without the boss,

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about, you know,

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how a community goes about,

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you know, harvesting crops

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in a democratic way.

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So there's I really think there's a

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different way to do even like the

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intellectual work of activism.

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And I'd like to explore that outside

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of the neoliberal academy,

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the shitbag that the university is

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today.

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Storytelling is just such a powerful

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way to relay that kind

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of knowledge and an experience

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right as

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an alternative to traditional

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academic forms.

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But thank

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you, Alex. I mean, like Santiago's

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true. We could sit on here

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for hours, but I feel like.

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This was a more of a foundational

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for blueprints of disruption in

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terms of our first foray into

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drawing parallels with South America

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and.

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Drawing on that knowledge.

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So it certainly won't

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end there. We're going to be in

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touch because all I can think right

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now is a follow

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up with productive

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workers army.

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I know a few people who speak

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fluent English. So, so definitely

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when when when it's time

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hit me up and I'll connect you to

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people.

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Something like that.

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And even without the English

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journalist manual open what I said

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in in Espanol También.

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But I'll pay for the English

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transcript.

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Like I'm also down to do

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some work in another language, you

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know, and.

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But no, that would be amazing.

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That would be amazing.

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Well, thank you guys for having me

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on. I definitely have to pass on a

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bunch of resources, it looks like.

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Certainly will be sure to share

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whatever you share with us in the

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show notes. So people who are

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listening and they want to know a

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little bit more, please check this

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show notes and we'll you

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know, we'll link you through that.

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But like I said, you know, many more

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discussions to be had on on this

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topic for sure.

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I have to pour through my notes and

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see how many tangents we can go on.

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I hope Mini-Series is

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brewing in my mind.

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And Santiago, I can just see the

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gears working and the grid tells me

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everything I need to know.

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I wish I recorded this visually.

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I think people would have had fun

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watching us get all giddy as Alex

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told those stories.

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Thank you so much.

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Especially the way you relayed that

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with similar to the writers

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that you talked about

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by simply

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giving us the stories that you heard

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and allowing us to

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soak them up and take what we needed

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from them.

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Definitely. You're welcome again.

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This is turning into a Canadian send

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off. Thank you for having me on

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again.

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Okay.

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That is a wrap on another episode

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of Blueprints of Disruption.

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Thank you for joining us.

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Also, a very big thank you

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to the producer of our show,

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Santiago Quintero.

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Blueprint of Disruption is an

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independent production operated

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cooperatively.

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You can follow us on Twitter at BP

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of Disruption.

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If you'd like to help us continue

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disrupting the status quo,

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please share our content.

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And if you have the means, consider

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becoming a patron.

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Not only does our support come from

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the progressive community, so does

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our content.

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So reach out to us and let us know

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what or who we should be amplifying.

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About the Podcast

Blueprints of Disruption
A Podcast for Rabble Rousers
Blueprints of Disruption is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, organizers and rabble rousers. This weekly podcast, hosted by Jessa McLean and Santiago Helou Quintero, features in-depth discussions that explore different ways to challenge capitalism, decolonize spaces and create movements on the ground. Together we will disrupt the status quo one episode at a time.

About your hosts

Jessa McLean

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Host, Jessa McLean is a socialist political and community organizer from Ontario.

Santiago Helou Quintero

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Producer