Leadership Cults in Politics
Why do we put so much emotional stock and resources into 'leaders'? And what is that costing us politically?
Host Jessa McLean and Santiago Helou Quintero make the case that the focus and energy we spend on leaders, both our own and that of our opponents, is a detriment to the movement - a distraction from actual problems and policies to fix them. They discuss the trappings of playing to the leader vs. leader narrative, why they exist and how we can move away from these 'leadership cults' in politics.
Transcript
All right, so today I wanted to talk about leadership called here with producer Santiago. I mean, I think
]:it's all this talk about Mike Shriner and Merritt Styles that had me thinking about it, but to be honest, I think
]:it's kind of just been egging at me for a while because I have been so guilty of falling into that leadership
]:called kind of mentality, and have since Fallen out of love with it, and now I can't stand to see it, so I just
]:wanted to explore that in terms of Canadian politics and how much deference we put into leaders, both our
]:own and the focus that we put on the opposition enemy, Right and the focus that we put on opposition leaders
]:as well, Did I call them enemies?
quintero]:Uh, huh,
]:Anyway? We're trying not to be that black and white about our thinking anymore. However, yeah, I think we're
]:like just as guilty. I don't think it serves us well right, either in tactics or mentality, So you jumped
]:like you didn't object Santiago, So obviously you may be wanted to explore this as well. You've never been
]:in the leadership cult, Or you know, I say that, as I have Chegavera post Behind me, so I'll cop to that
]:right now.
quintero]:No, I mean, I think it's kind of natural to have at some point fallen into that in one way or the other,
]:Who
quintero]:and
]:was it?
quintero]:I don't know. I mean, I mean, you can definitely say Burney was, but that that doesn't feel like you
quintero]:know the worst thing, but I think it's more of just wanting
]:M.
quintero]:somebody to save us. You know, wanting
]:Yeah,
quintero]:to believe that somebody's just gonna come along and have all the answers, and just like single handedly
quintero]:well, the power to fix everything. I think that's like just a deep desire for a lot of people. But
quintero]:yeah, now Burney is now A good example.
]:But he is in a way like it still creates the same kind of problems Like you don't get off the hook for being
]:a Burne brother or whatever they like To the
quintero]:But
]:monitor
quintero]:the whole Burney
]:they
quintero]:thing
]:attached
quintero]:was the
]:it.
quintero]:It was that it was the not me us of it that I loved. You know
]:Okay,
quintero]:like I think like, that's what I'm saying. I don't think I fell into the leadership cult of it all,
quintero]:because it was more of the movement of it all that I fell in
]:Yes,
quintero]:love with too, and just Burney was the face of that movement I think I had, but now I definitely
quintero]:think I have. I just can't think of off the top of my head to be, which is kind of. I mean, I think
quintero]:that's a good thing. maybe, but
]:I mean, there's a case to be made to that, Ike. you're You're not the only one. I'm not the only one. It
]:seems like Canadian politics, Sin General just seems really focused on the leader, and if you've ever been a
]:part of any campaign, they tell you essentially, and it's even more so with a federal campaign that it's the national
]:campaign, that leadership campaign that really is going to make the difference in terms of vote count and poles
]:right, constantly pulling People on their preference for leader, even without asking them any kind of values based
]:questions. And that is somehow relevant, you know, and there's no doubt it's influenced elections. Like. Do
]:you think Truthoug would have been elected and been successful this many times if he wasn't so personable.
]:Um,
quintero]:No, I mean, I've knocked on enough doors to know what people care about with elections And it's
]:They love his hair. They will say that at the door, won't they?
quintero]:And then it's it's. It's the leadership right They don't, Because I've tried to engage people in conversations
quintero]:at the R. on on policy on like more of like nuance details, and it really just comes down to the
quintero]:leader. I mean, I remember when I was in grade twelve, My my politics teacher used to say that politicians
quintero]:are elected based off the beer test, which is people vote for the person they would most want to have
quintero]:a beer with an
]:Yeah, and that's probably
quintero]:H,
]:how we market
quintero]:M,
]:ourselves. You know. that's how the campaign shape up to right like it's all poured everything into the leader
]:to make them. it was the kinder gentler, Andrea. Right, and that like that obviously didn't work. But yeah, it
]:becomes like the go to strategy too, and I think that's what really turned me off right with sitting in
]:so many council meetings. That's on N d P. council meetings where You're told first and foremost that all
]:the positive stuff that comes out is going to be about the leader and only the leader, not the issues, not
]:the other people doing the work, and all of the negative messaging is going to be primarily about a person
]:and not ideas. And I think like that's really what gets me upset when we talk about these leadership calls
]:and why they're a bad thing is just We're not talking about the issues right
quintero]:M,
]:and
quintero]:Hm,
]:I'm so guilty of it. Still, you know, in Tiktok, I've got a forward tracker and I've named that and I blame him
]:and I use his name over and over again because I know that it illicit certain emotions, I guess, but in reality
]:I'm wasting time by not driving home the point that it's whether it was forward or let J at the helm or any.
]:If them, it's all going to be the same. No liberal plan, The same capitalist patterns of Now cutting government
]:spending and leaving us hanging out to dry. and like attacking the person is really just such a distraction.
quintero]:Yeah, and it's it's also like it's so tempting to follow into just that messaging because it's also
quintero]:often the most efficient, you know, when it comes to limited resource. If you can knock down a leader
quintero]:that does have an effect for most people
]:Yeah, and
quintero]:it
]:that's
quintero]:shouldn't
]:like easy.
quintero]:Yeah, and there's also like a certain level of con Roll that you surrender when you use that strategy.
quintero]:Because the spin right like a lot of the ways that you can criticize someone. It all comes down to
quintero]:how that ends up getting spine in the narrative right like I remember, I was taught. I ran into an
quintero]:activist I knew the other day who, like he does activism in the Philippines, and he was telling
quintero]:me about how the person he was organizing against There was like some scandal where they were like doing.
quintero]:They were caught doing coke or something, And and then the media spend it to be that. Oh, they have to
quintero]:do coke because they're such a hard worker that it's what they do to be able to keep
]:That
quintero]:up
]:might
quintero]:with
]:be
quintero]:the campaign,
]:true.
quintero]:and for the record like I don't use this example, because I have anything like. I don't have any
quintero]:stigmas against Trug. So we're using about like the narratives right,
]:Yeah,
quintero]:Like that same Narrative would knock down someone else and here it gets fun into a positive right.
quintero]:So when you?
]:Someone had a really creative press team
quintero]:Yeah,
]:Like
quintero]:and apparently it
]:that's
quintero]:worked
]:impressive.
quintero]:so I don't know. Like this was a passing conversation. I didn't get the most details about it, but apparently
quintero]:it worked and that's kind of what it comes down to right Is that like when you attack a leader, it's
quintero]:also very easy to defend the leader. You know what I mean. Like the like, How many things? I think
quintero]:Trump was the ultimate example of that, which is that the amount of ship that you could get away with
quintero]:you know it all comes Down to the spin and I think when it comes to criticizing, like when somebody
quintero]:brought into that cult, and I think cult is kind of a useful term right because it's like surrendering
quintero]:a bit of like the rational thinking. And so
]:Yeah, it
quintero]:when
]:becomes
quintero]:you're
]:entirely emotional.
quintero]:when you're in that cult, you know it is completely unacceptable for you to be wrong about it. You
quintero]:know. so so
]:We
quintero]:any
]:know
quintero]:critics
]:that
quintero]:Sums, just get dismissed like they're not going to land, they're not going to land. You attack the
quintero]:leader, you attack the person. It's not going to land. And so you see that constantly, the people
quintero]:who support people support those people and will keep supporting those people. And by attacking those
quintero]:leaders there's nothing you can get. nothing you can say that will get through them. Maybe you get
quintero]:through to a couple, maybe, but it's not going to be effective on a larger scale, So it's also like
quintero]:I feel like we're wasting a lot of our time there. I don't know.
]:Well, I think that's on purpose. right. It's like that moving target, that false target And it's it's in within
]:our enemies and within ourselves. because like Jagmeatsaing, he's a perfect example. Like people who are frustrated
]:with the party right now blame him. but he doesn't actually do anything from what we know like he hardly
]:does anything. Um, and leading right. There's no grand
quintero]:M.
]:vision.
quintero]:hm,
]:There's no planning that's coming Rough. Him, particularly, he's being propped up and put on display and so
]:being frustrated with him and thinking that a leadership contest is going to fix it, Just like you know,
]:the Ontario, N D P. getting a new leader here Like those, aren't even the people actually running the show.
]:And that's the same on all levels of government. Like Trump isn't actually coming up with most of those ideas,
]:those horrible initiatives and neither is Trude for the most part, Like there's going to be some exceptions and
]:cabinets are set up different Ways. But you know it's It's just to like people aren't educated to as well
]:as how these power structures work right. So it's so easy to be like. Oh, it's him. It's forward it. It's
]:whoever you want to blame at the time and you can spend all your energy like we've seen entire campaigns, money
]:spent energy spent to get the Minister of Education in Ontario, fired by whom By forward to be replaced by another
]:person like that Is
quintero]:Yeah,
]:Such wasted time. When it's the ideas that those will continue. The cuts would continue with a different
]:face because we like we learn nothing, because cabinet shuffles are just one way out of it right. So that's
]:like Duck and dodge. I asked you before we started recording. You know how we thought to Conservatives.
]:Do, people on the right put as much hope and deference into their leaders. You said.
quintero]:Yeah, I mean, I don't. I don't think they do. I don't think they do. I also think that like one of
quintero]:the things that I came up for me was there was like this idea. I feel like there's almost this like
quintero]:assumption that ass hole politicians, asshole leaders, asshole cos, whatever are a finite resource.
quintero]:That
]:Ah,
quintero]:that that by getting rid of them
]:well,
quintero]:there.
]:not for the Ontario N D. P. Right now there was only one to choose from.
quintero]:But you know what I mean, Like this idea that you get rid of them and the next one won't be the literal
quintero]:same thing. And that's the case with everything in capitalism. right, you're gonna you get rid of
quintero]:one of those and it's a hydra, you know, chop off one head to grow back. That's how it is.
]:What's
quintero]:right.
]:worse. What's worse, Though, thinking getting rid of like a trump, yea we be Trump, or and thinking we've won
quintero]:Yeah,
]:or that false hope you put in like a boma
quintero]:No, exactly,
]:That people spent energy propping up rather than defeating, And obviously there's differences between the
quintero]:Hm,
]:two, but I mean a Boma bomb the ship out of racialized people. He built those migrant detention centers.
]:Like all the things that we just despise and try to jump on Trump. like? Um, Like policy wise, they didn't
]:differ all that much right, save
quintero]:M,
]:for
quintero]:hm,
]:like some human rights issues like very few, though, And I'm wondering, like what does us more harm wasting
]:our energy attacking, like this kind of man behind the curtain that's not there, or that false hope that
]:false hope that you kind of talked about in the very beginning where we think someone will save us Because
]:that that probably means you're not doing the work that you would do if you thought it was on you and your
]:comrades, Right, like
quintero]:M,
]:race
quintero]:hm,
]:is all the work That goes in behind these leaders, good and bad, Like Jem, didn't get where he was. Fourth place.
]:I guess without the team that's behind him and trumped it and get there without all these folks propping
]:him up in the media, Um amplifying it right. But we don't really look there. We just have this really narrow
]:focus and uh, yeah, I can't decide which one is more detrimental to You know, actually getting the work done.
quintero]:I mean, I feel like that. I mean, I've seen that false hope so many times stop people from getting the
quintero]:work done
]:Yeah,
quintero]:that like I'm and I think that comes back to like a central theme of this podcast which is like the
quintero]:The problem with just electoralism right. Just like
]:Yeah,
quintero]:only doing the electoralism thing and putting all your hope in the electoralism thing and then losing
quintero]:All your hope and energy because all you did was the electoralism thing and absolutely nothing changed.
quintero]:Right
]:Yeah,
quintero]:and like that's done so much harm and earlier, when you asked me about, like our conservatives, more
quintero]:or less on the the cultural leadership, I think an important thing to like kind of ask is when we say
quintero]:conservative, Are we talking about conservative voters or the actual capitalists, like the people
quintero]:with resources, money power, who Are really the conservative party? Right, because there is a distinction
quintero]:there right. I think that conservatives are like more like the Elector is more. I'd say it's just about
quintero]:as loyal as liberals to the whole cult of leadership, but I'd say that behind the scenes conservatives
quintero]:are cut throat. They're quick to move on the second someone loses their usefulness, You know,
]:Except trump ites like. I think I feel like there should be an astre every time we say this, because
quintero]:But that's
]:like
quintero]:the electorate,
]:they take it to another level, like the swag and the passion and this man has is
quintero]:But
]:lost.
quintero]:those are the voters. Though
]:He's not
quintero]:those are the voters, not not not the people behind the scenes. I don't think that there is
]:Right.
quintero]:committed to it, and I feel like, I mean they know what they have to gain by playing that up to the
quintero]:people who are still very much drinking the cool aid. But
]:I think Trump was an exception in so many ways, though, like you say, voters, I'm I'm thinking half those folks
]:didn't. I know, the numbers are not going to support me here, but I feel like they're not even voters. That's
]:just really reactionary. It's like almost like a fuck you to the established political class because he was
]:just so out there in terms of like being a politician right, it was like
quintero]:M,
]:the anti
quintero]:hm,
]:politician, even though in the andes, doing capitals bidding the same way just with a different stick. But
]:It was it was just It did come coalesce around him and then kept its momentum even when he was removed from
]:power. Even more so right,
quintero]:M,
]:like the
quintero]:hm,
]:almost rose up in the absence of his power, so I feel like Yeah, there's just like another lens to look at
]:that situation. But if you look at
quintero]:Hm,
]:Canada, we always mark like our eras by Prime minister, Right, like not by an actual political analysis of
]:the change.
quintero]:No,
]:You know, Like Maroni, brought in that A liberal approach that Regan had. but we don't. We don't put those words
]:to it and teach people that it's like my dad hated Maroni. so I do, and you know, Yeah,
quintero]:It's not measured by how people are actually doing like quality of life,
]:Like your average person. Yeah, I know now, and that's we don't even mark our eras that way. Politically,
]:You know when we shifted away when our foreign policy shifted to a certain way, or you know, our social safety
]:net became less of a you know priority. We don't mark that or just market by what leader was empowered.
]:Quite often. people can't name even what party they were. I think that's
quintero]:And it's also so like complicated also because like, for example, right now, Trudohas been Prime Minister
quintero]:for high for how long? but almost every province is conservative right and so like, Is it the era of
quintero]:Tito? Is it the era afford? Which one is it?
]:It's the area. Well, it's right now. It's like the era of fucktrudo. I think that's what's galvanizing a lot
]:of people. Like I come from a neighborhood where every other truck has that on their bumper stick, like,
]:and that again is like this huge focus. The convoy doesn't even really know what they're protesting or asking
]:for. I mean, there's certain ones that have real subversive motives, but generally I think most of them are
]:clues. Wouldn't be able to articulate it except that Tyre. he's a tire, Like trudois, just some tyrant, and then
]:you go into liberal spaces and you try to say anything negative about Trude and you've got to be a conservative
]:and you know full disclaimer were neither, But
quintero]:Hm.
]:yeah, it just elicits such a devisiveness to right. As soon as you start talking about the leader, you're
]:almost getting a different person in their response. Right as if you talked about an issue right when after
]:an issue and talked about the importance of health care, you could actually have discourse. But once you
]:bring the leader into And I feel like that, that's that constructive discourse just disappears. it becomes
]:irrational and yeah, the amount of media space that's dedicated to it as well, I think is just such a drawback
]:from like letting folks know what's what's actually in the policies rather than where they are and who they're
]:shaking hands with, or who's yelling at them outside of their dinner Like
quintero]:It comes back also like, Just because you mentioned media, it comes back to that fundamental issue
quintero]:in journalism about. Like because these are not like always. it's It's not like backroom meetings where
quintero]:they're like planning to like. Focus only on leaders because they want to like not give people information.
quintero]:but it's because it's easy. right. Like communicating to people politics through the lens of leaders
quintero]:is the Seest way to do it right. It's much more difficult to try and tell people about all of the nuances
quintero]:and policy and all three hundred and thirty six. Is it? I don't even know any more. That's good. I'm
quintero]:glad I don't know three hundred and thirty whatever, Right Like people don't people. Can't you don't
quintero]:have the time for that, So it's easier to just do the whole leadership thing and sell it all through
quintero]:that image, but it's also Not doing anyone justice and I don't know. Like Ow, Do you fix that? How
quintero]:do you? How do you actually change the way that we communicate politics to people?
]:That is? that
quintero]:Ah,
]:is like the question, the golden question. T. because whatever it is, we're not doing it and a lot of it
]:sounded like education right. It's easier also because people maybe wouldn't understand, So it's digestible.
]:It's cellable. It's drama to write. Policy versus policy just doesn't elicit the same narrative as to individuals
]:fighting each other. You know, those digs that we like to publish at each other, and it just evolves
quintero]:Hm,
]:into this um. battle of the personalities, and another real negative impact that that has is traces the
]:fact that they're essentially all the same right. It
quintero]:M.
]:was like Ford versus Trude, and like now, Trudois, just saying, Oh, well, you know what, your private health care
]:is really innovative. So like all their bickering back and forth and all this talk about Tito saving us, It's they're
]:all the same. They're all doing capitals bidding. Um, there's not
quintero]:Yeah,
]:much that separates them
quintero]:You know it's an interesting policy to think about right now is because I was just thinking about
quintero]:how like whenever they. actually, whenever you want to sell policy, you got to give a catchy name. You know,
quintero]:you got to make it a whole thing. You know. You got you got your bucket bears, you know, and stuff
quintero]:like that, But I was just thinking about the green New Deal and how How so many right wing Republicans
quintero]:and such they hate it, But they have no idea what it is. They just know the name Green New Deal and
quintero]:then they're against
]:Like critical
quintero]:it.
]:race theory.
quintero]:Oh
]:To
quintero]:yeah, critical race.
]:what
quintero]:there
]:is it?
quintero]:is
]:I don't
quintero]:another
]:know, but I don't like it.
quintero]:another great example. There's all kinds of like whenever, like, actual policy gets brought up and
quintero]:you have to sell it with like some name you know like. but like the actual content of it is not
quintero]:what people are paying attention to. And then it's so funny how much how angry people can get about
quintero]:something that they have no idea what it is. You know.
]:That is so true and I know this is kind of digressing a little bit as well. But if you ever actually read
]:for nations, See, I even call them That should be. the progressive conservative government Acts like they're
]:so awful. They're so arrillian. They literally say the opposite of what they're doing. Um, because every time
]:someone tells me the name of the act, I feel like my response is not really called. That is it? And and sure
]:enough, if you look at it, it is so. Yeah, messaging is just manipulation in politics and leadership Cults
]:are not the only example of that. by far, Um, I think it serves us well to kind of talk about the two leadership,
]:kind of situations in Ontario That got us talking about leadership, this and leadership. that the Mike Shriner
]:drama. I'm Having fun watching people's reactions to this because they're getting quite worked up and emotional
]:about it. Have you waited into this? So this is the Ontario Green Leader Is being courted again by this time
]:like real high ranking liberals, whatever that means. And you know they wrote an open letter pleading with him,
]:and although he had said he wouldn't even consider it, he's now asked people for some time to carefully consider
]:it. So
quintero]:I mean, I got to be honest when I say that I haven't been focusing the most on it. It's been like one
quintero]:of those times he got asked to run for the leadership of the Liberals. It is
]:Yeah,
quintero]:right,
]:so like you know, you've got your, so I'm goin t feel you in Santiago with the audience. So the you've got liberals.
]:They're getting all worked up because they've got their favorite one of seven, M. P. Ps, or whoever you know,
]:they've got a liberal, may be federal hero that they had planned for this job because they see themselves
]:as researching, and apparently it all rests on who your leader is not your content. so I guess some of them
]:are very excited at the idea of just replacing it with someone with some star power At the
quintero]:M,
]:moment. And then you've got your greens, who you know are enjoying having someone like Shriner who pulls very
]:well in Ontario, is a bit of a super star amongst Left is because he has, you know, what would be considered ultra
]:progressive ideas in Ontario politics, even left of the Ontario and D P. most of the time To be honest, And
]:so the greens there are mixed. Some of them are like. Well, maybe we could all be liberals and actually win.
]:And then you know the grass fruit. Most of the grass fruits are Just like now. Like we finally have momentum.
]:We finally have a really genuine leader. That's not Elizabeth May, And you know, how could you leave us right?
]:How could you do that to us? How could you even think about it? And again it's just like, Although I do
]:find it amusing at some point because I don't know. I just have fun with the greens. I'm not sure why I'm sorry
]:to all my green friends there, but it's just again like it doesn't Matt. It should not matter who the leader
]:of your party is really right. It's like if it's led by really
quintero]:Hm,
]:powerful ideas that are communicated, will you should win. You should
quintero]:M,
]:transform
quintero]:Hm,
]:people's minds, like all of this work, and hope that you know, resting on where Mike Shriner lands. and
]:like somehow the fate of ontarians rest in that decision is really troubling to me because they're going
]:to make those decisions a hundred percent based on their Political professional situation, right. Same with merit
]:styles and all of their decisions like they're thinking about themselves and they're propping themselves up
]:and creating their own portfolio. I mean, I think that's obvious with what Andrea Howat, Now who's working
]:very closely with Dug Ford as mayor of Hamilton, You know, they go where they'll win. They'll go where they'll
]:be propped up. They'll go where they'll have a big spot light. and Yeah, membership be damned. so um, yeah,
]:I mentioned merit a few times that folks who aren't paying attention to Ontario politics. I don't blame you,
]:but the Ontario, N. D P had a single person run for leadership, So
quintero]:And they
]:you
quintero]:made
]:know
quintero]:sure of that,
]:they did at the party was absolutely so focused and intent on having this one person become the next leader.
]:an essential Carbon copy of the last one. I'll bite a better speaker.
]:They went even so far as to alienate really good M. P. P's attack members, you know, basically structure
]:the last two years and counting on this transition of power And yeah, it's like whatever you got to do to get the
]:leader of your choice in place, and it has such detrimental effect on the left. We talked about briefly,
]:Jagmeetsing, being the leader of the Federal N. D. P. and how he got there. There's still bad blood amongst
]:Ndpers on. depending on whose camp you were in during that first leadership race for Jagmete, there was you
]:know, team Nick, Team Charlie, and Teamjgmt And yeah, still, When you, when you're in these circles, there
]:is animosity and there's folks who don't work together any more because they were in different campaigns there.
]:And Yeah,
quintero]:Hm,
]:like for what? For what? Look where has it gotten us in the last four or five years?
quintero]:No, and and like, just to bring up another example, just because I was a part of this when N. Paul
quintero]:was elected leader of the Greens, right in the lead up to that. I remember there was so many members
quintero]:signing up. There was like a really good energy. He was this whole field of candidates. An Paul wins
quintero]:and suddenly pouf all of that energy. all of that momentum gone and that happened so so much With this,
quintero]:where's like? In the lead up to these leadership elections, a lot of great Stuff is happening And then
quintero]:you just once somebody is elected. Everyone's like Okay. Work is done by by. you know,
]:Yeah,
quintero]:And that's the case so much, and you know, like with this, I was like, wonder like, Why is that? Why
quintero]:is it in Canadian politics that it's always like just one leader? I mean, that's the thing in a lot
quintero]:of politics. not just Canadian, but
]:Are you tlkigabotlike The Co leadership.
quintero]:but even like. what if you?
]:Like what?
quintero]:just what if you Didn't have a leader have a party and
]:Chaos
quintero]:you just
]:would
quintero]:like
]:ensue San Diego?
quintero]:now, But what if you like Cychuwhat, if you had like a few people
]:Yeah,
quintero]:who all were like cycling through in terms of like media duties, and like talking and stuff representing
quintero]:the party. but like you didn't and maybe you had, like you could still have like a president. But
quintero]:just maybe I don't know. not even a fan of that idea, but just saying like what if you didn't How
quintero]:would Canadians react to that? Do you think? do you think that people would like that? Do you think
quintero]:they'd fuck with that like
]:Well, sometimes I wonder if people eat only tune into politics to see the drama around the leadership. But
]:that idea of like rotation is not um foreign to democracy at all. You know, the Greeks had the Lot system
]:and your name was in a hat, you know, And
quintero]:Hm,
]:if you got drawn to be the Minister of Agricole, Sure, that's what you were doing for the next year, And you know
]:it had many purposes. It exposed you to all of the ins and out of government, which is society right. How
]:everything works, the ideas to move around and get. But then you also experience like being the ruled and
]:being a ruler, so that you know what makes both good right rather than it always being the same person.
]:It Reduce. Like elections, we talk about the problems like how do you run an election without having that
]:leader that focal point for people to kind of follow it all. And but elections are really problematic. They're
]:not as democratic as we
quintero]:No,
]:make them out to be. That doesn't? That isn't the only way to structure who will be making the decisions for
]:the next bet. You know, like if we do look back to the origins of democracy, there are so many other ways
]:that you can function Without that. But you know the system that we've built up around us makes that really
]:hard. You know the money that's involved or the way that media is structured to, you know,
quintero]:M, But let's say
]:Funnel
quintero]:like
]:out sernine stuff
quintero]:let's say, and I'm just going to pick the Liberals as my example here. just because you know they win
quintero]:elections. Um, sorry
]:They do.
quintero]:if the Liberals said tomorrow, no more leaders. We have no leaders and we're just going to cycle various
quintero]:M. P. s. Like the Cabinet members, you know, cycle
]:Trude
quintero]:the
]:would
quintero]:Cabinet
]:be so upset.
quintero]:members, But's say they did that. How would Canadians react to that? I'm Only, I have no idea, but
quintero]:it be really curious to see, and you know, in a weird way it would take certain wind out of the sales
quintero]:of like
]:I was just going to say that I'm like well, if you're going to call someone a tyrant if they you know, relinquish
]:power to a collective. Um, you've got to. You've got to be down with that, but they can be very hypocritical in
]:their positions, but in theory they would have to support that, and they be in conservatives, Right and the
]:left would also, in theory support it because we believe in equality, right, Un equalization of power is included
]:in that. And so, But how would we emotionally react or like, how would our engagement level be? I would like
]:to think we'd then have to focus on the meat and potatoes,
quintero]:Right,
]:right,
quintero]:right,
]:the actual substance of what's being put forth, and you know
quintero]:M,
]:that might hurt.
quintero]:hm,
]:We might not be ready to actually look at how bad you know liberal policies really are When you point out you
]:know the foreign policies of liberals and the real right wing stuff, like it hurts people to hear that like
]:they just can't picture Tuto being that way, or maybe Canadians being that way. But
quintero]:M, hm.
]:yeah, now
quintero]:It's
]:I think
quintero]:It's interesting like it comes back to like the systemic analysis right, like we're always attacking
quintero]:various leaders criticising various leaders, but we never criticize leadership itself, you know,
quintero]:And maybe
]:Well, we
quintero]:that's
]:did
quintero]:just
]:on one
quintero]:like,
]:episode called Re Imagining Leadership with Duncan Play,
quintero]:Ah, like
]:I had to.
quintero]:I feel like this is like just me, the anarchist and me coming out quite a bit.
]:Yeah,
quintero]:but like you know, like, like, there's different ways to do things is my point, and a lot of the time.
quintero]:the top down leadership structure is the very problem because one person can't do it all. We're all
quintero]:incredibly flawed.
]:And then
quintero]:People like
]:oh
quintero]:the
]:yes,
quintero]:best of us is Credibly flawed. The best of us can't do it. That's kind of my point. The very best
quintero]:person out of all of us cannot do it. It's
]:Well,
quintero]:too
]:there
quintero]:much.
]:is no best like. I think you said it right
quintero]:yeah,
]:the first time like we're all just like infallible creatures. Right And so that is a
quintero]:M,
]:huge problem with those leadership calls too. Because we become, they become such easy targets. So if you could
]:just discredit Jeremy Corban, you would take a huge look at the Labor party. Now look
quintero]:Yeah,
]:at the Labor party. Now all they had to do was pull some bullshit claim
quintero]:M,
]:that
quintero]:hm,
]:he was in Semitic, and now the Labor party is just in ruins. It's destroyed. It's the ugliest thing I've
]:ever seen to be honest, to have a labor
quintero]:Brutal,
]:in the name, although the Canadian labor Congress sometimes
quintero]:Yeah,
]:might uh, get in on that, but
quintero]:M,
]:like
quintero]:hm,
]:yea, we put all our eggs in one basket, so to speak, and then it gets taken down and we are left with nothing.
]:Uh, and another thing that pisces me up, too. You can't talk about your own leader. Everyone
quintero]:Uh,
]:on the
quintero]:huh,
]:left knows this is so in true. Um,
quintero]:M,
]:like you can't talk about Jegmet on the left for two reasons. One, you'll be labeled to resist or two. you're
]:bringing down the left entirely. So we've apparently put all of our hopes into a person so much so that they are not
]:even open to critique anymore, and we can position them so that you know Critique of them is quickly dismissed even
]:if it's valid critique. Um, even I was once told I was criticizing the Magrath. She's the
quintero]:Uh,
]:national
quintero]:uh,
]:director because she was a woman. I identify woman by the like. That's what makes that slightly ironic. Is
]:it was an anti woman position and it was so typical for women in politics to be bashed, And it was just You
]:know, And the same thing goes with a Boma and the leaders that we have now like even bidin, even Burney brothers
]:that were just like, No, not bidin like No, like I can't celebrate that. If it's not, it's burning your bust.
]:They were told to just get in line behind the leader. You're making us all look bad, and in the end bidin is
]:awful right. That was no victory by Burney brothers. Had every reason to say, like our guy are nobody at
]:all, but I think that lie, Uh, gives credit to your theory earlier that the Burney Sanders movement was more
]:about the grass roots than Burney himself. Like he did defer
quintero]:I don't
]:you,
quintero]:think
]:don't ever.
quintero]:I think when it comes to Burney, I think
]:Yeah,
quintero]:he genuinely doesn't want to be a leader, which I think is the best quality a leader can have.
]:It's almost like he's saying, Don't take a picture of me Right, like
quintero]:Yeah,
]:the mittens, the cot, the dishevelled hair is like
quintero]:I
]:I'm
quintero]:generally
]:not going to sell
quintero]:think
]:any magazine. Stop.
quintero]:I genuinely think that he just kind of fell into this at a certain point, and and like that comes
quintero]:back to like In twenty sixteen, Before you know he ran, he was trying to get Elizabeth Warren to run
quintero]:instead, like he was trying to get someone else to do it, and then no one else to it. And then he
quintero]:was like reluctantly, like Find. I guess it's up to me and and then it turned into a whole thing,
quintero]:But I think that's not something. that is it people are attracted to him Bout is that more grass roots?
quintero]:And and I think they made an effort in the campaign to kind of talk about. You know, all of the door
quintero]:knocking and all of the like, the grass roots part of the campaign and all of the like, single donations
quintero]:and everything like that was. That was why that exploded. you know, And yeah, we don't have anything
quintero]:like that here and people are already like, like with the N. d P. like people are already towing the
quintero]:line Day one Like I remember, I saw a Where. Like saline panel was like saying about how they didn't
quintero]:release the results of the vote And then somebody was like Oh, you gotta like fall in line and keep
quintero]:all the discussions in house, because you're only helping
]:Okay,
quintero]:for your divisive. comments are only helping for and I'm like, like, Are you
]:You
quintero]:serious?
]:know I replied to that,
quintero]:Did you ex applied
]:You know.
quintero]:to that?
]:I. D. Yeah,
quintero]:The
]:For sure. I can't believe people can still say that Now you know that they. still, we have not gone anywhere
]:in terms of waking up to those kind of harms of just falling in line. Honestly, like history has provided
]:us with so many examples, But left this surprise me in our hypocrisy and I'm just as guilty. Honestly of all of
]:these things, it's not a. I'm the perfect left is kind of. I've fallen into all of them Traps, and I still do
]:sometimes because even Burney, when we're talking about him, we can't romanticize him or corban,
quintero]:Yeah,
]:because they also
quintero]:that's
]:have
quintero]:the
]:their
quintero]:problem
]:flaws right,
quintero]:Like, and that's not like, warm
]:As do
quintero]:and fuzzy
]:I.
quintero]:like rosy glasses that I still have. Like I know when I'm talking about this that I'm just like seeing
quintero]:this for the energy that I believe in. And you know and I don't. I don't even know any more. What's
quintero]:what? I just, that's a problem. You want to believe in something you want to believe You know somebody.
quintero]:come along and just have the answers and save us. Like I was talking about how like, because like
quintero]:I studied music, right like my, My dream would be really to just make music, do art cook, spend
quintero]:time like you know, like the basics of life Like I just, I want to do that. I don't want to be trying
quintero]:to save the world, but it's like, so like, Like somebody, please come and save all of us, But no,
quintero]:that's not what's going to happen. And and we have to do it ourselves, you know, and we all Have
quintero]:to be a part of it.
]:Yeah, like it's that does become a bit of it because you know you absolutely can't be fighting all the time
]:either, So it's It's nice to think that someone is doing it. I think in reality, though those aren't even the
]:folks doing the real work most of the time. Um,
quintero]:Hm,
]:so they're not the people to be looking to. It's like all those other people, Um, that put them there. And
]:even when we talk about leaderless movements. when we talk about some social movements, we, We stay there without
]:leaders, but really there without propped up leaders. So you know you know that there's somebody that is like
]:leading meetings, you know, chairing meetings, spear heading efforts, certain projects, you know,
quintero]:M,
]:and
quintero]:hm,
]:there are definitely people throughout history. Two that have just done really great things worth celebrating,
]:worth learning from worth imitating. Um, But it's yeah, it's just that complete deference that we fall into
]:that becomes really detrimental right because like there is, there is seventy positives to idolizing somebody.
]:Because like I'm thinking of the poster behind me, like Chigavera, I am not unaware of
quintero]:M,
]:the
quintero]:hm,
]:issues around that, but I'll tell you right now like I have read every piece of work that I've ever been
]:able to get my hands on. I'm fully versed in the life of Chiavera and his actions, but I still hold him up
]:in a high regard. I justify the things that he did For the ends that we're trying to meet. Um, and I don't
]:hold any regret there at all, and I know he's not a perfect person, or was not a perfect person, But he, now
]:for me, represents also this ideal of selflessness and sacrifice, and Like global solidarity, that is personified
]:and it's sometimes there's not even a way for me to articulate other than through that imagery, and that might
]:not even be rational. right. It is probably very emotional, but I only think I've drawn positives from whole
]:from holding him in that high regard, and I teach my children about him And other leaders. You know, that
]:will obviously have flowed past as well, but you know I definitely don't want anyone to come away with the
]:idea that there isn't people to celebrate.
quintero]:No, And but that that's the key word is the people of it, which is that the people we celebrate are
quintero]:still people, and all of us people
]:Yeah,
quintero]:are incredibly flawed. You know what I mean,
]:Because who isn't right? Like like,
quintero]:Exactly like
]:I don't think you'd be truly human and it's I don't think. It's also even very self serving to the movement
]:to display our leaders as perfect.
quintero]:No,
]:I think
quintero]:and
]:there'd
quintero]:I think
]:be something relatable in error.
quintero]:And I think we need to focus on that on the left sometimes because it's like also, there was nobody
quintero]:who had all the answers. None of us have all the answers. I'm I'm guarantee I'm wrong about a very
quintero]:large amount of things that I don't even know that I'm wrong about,
]:I'm
quintero]:but
]:not
quintero]:none of. but you know what I mean. Right is just like. It's like just wanting somebody to have figured
quintero]:it all out. Nobody figured it all out.
]:No,
quintero]:Nobody, one, Thoughts and ideas of the answer. None of it is perfect is through the combination
quintero]:of everyone that you're going to find the closest thing to an answer. You know. Like the answer lies
quintero]:in people, not person, Not one person lies in all the people.
]:And the same can be said for blame right some when we're looking to make
quintero]:M.
]:big changes,
quintero]:hm,
]:you know, switching out a minister or even like, Let's be honest. At this point, Pretty much anywhere in
]:Canadian politics, even a new leader from a new party is really not going to make for transformative change
]:like in your life. in your daily life. I know we've seen a marked decrease in Under Premier Forward, but you
]:know it was declining under the Liberals, and Ontario had the worst example there where we came. So focused
]:on Maginti. Was had that same forward kind of attack, ad ora to it where
quintero]:M,
]:he
quintero]:hm,
]:was, you know, and he wasn't very handsome. He was. He was easy to demon Is, he just looked like a shady
]:politician, to be honest, and he was awful and they were corrupt. They were so correct And they were able
]:to just have a leadership race replaced with Kathleen Win, a kinder gentler version of the Liberals, who did
]:the same policies. Like all the crumbs that we got for them were just leading into another election. They
]:weren't things that they had actually had you know foundations for Um. And now we've fallen into that same
]:trap where we think so. It was like if we could just get rid of the liberals. Now it's like if we could just
]:get rid of four And then it would all be better and I just you know, even if that's Mike Shriner and the Liberals,
]:I am really really skeptical on whether that or sorry or Merit, and the Ontario N P, that that would lead
]:to a real big change in people's lives, But people would celebrate it none the less right. It would be like
]:victory right, like I could only magine people in B. C. And you know, Alberta and Ottley got in and like that
]:The excitement of finally voting for a winner and getting a winner and then expecting them to transform everything,
]:and it just seems incredibly naive. Now
quintero]:I just thought about something, which is Because we said you mentioned earlier about how Trump is kind
quintero]:of like Outside of the rule in this
]:Seems
quintero]:like
]:to be
quintero]:he's What about bidin? where it's like nobody. Actually, nobody actually cared about him as a leader
quintero]:like there wasn't. Nobody was getting the rosy glasses
]:Capital.
quintero]:of No, But, but
]:You
quintero]:you know
]:mean
quintero]:what
]:you mean regular folk,
quintero]:I'm
]:you
quintero]:talking
]:mean
quintero]:about. Like, Yeah, like the people, the electorate, you know,
]:The working class?
quintero]:the work Class,
]:No,
quintero]:but like people weren't like he was in a cult. A personality. Let me just
]:Is
quintero]:say
]:he,
quintero]:that,
]:is he the anti leadership called leader? Is he going to
quintero]:Uh,
]:break down
quintero]:uh,
]:our idea that we could ever need to trust in our leaders again Like it's just like throw anyone up there Doesn't
]:matter. Well,
quintero]:But and that's kind of the thing right? Is that like? Maybe that's the answer When I asked Like, What
quintero]:if the Liberals didn't have a leader? it would just be like the Democrats of Bidin, where it's just
quintero]:like you know, I don't know. Like,
]:Our system
quintero]:like,
]:is a little different, but I get what you're talking about.
quintero]:Yeah, it's just like It didn't matter there. It did not matter that he was like the least appealing
quintero]:leader ever, and that nobody really liked him and that he was not a good speaker and had no policies
quintero]:to like. He had nothing. He had nothing going for him. nothing at all except that he wasn't Trump, who
quintero]:was the cultive leader and he beat the cultive leader. So I guess forty nine minutes into this episode
quintero]:I don't know where I am. Not any more because I I don't know. Just politic bad is that
]:No, Well, I think you drifted into the partisanship to that like No matter who you put up there, Umweyll, vote for
]:right. So that kind of lessons. Our argument that everything is based on leadership
quintero]:Yah?
]:called, but it definitely plays into it because I'm going to say this. It sounds self serving, but in my writing
]:you know ur, M P, who I ran against twice so obviously I'm a sore loser, but literally you could have run
]:a dead fish not because it was me as the opponent, but because they Goin to vote conservative no matter what like
]:He cannot speak publicly. sweats whenever he has to, he just repeats the same words he embarrasses himself
]:on in committee on camera, And it's just endless, but it really even people in town. you go door to door and folks
]:were like. Oh, I went to school with him. I don't think I could vote for him, but you know and you know they
]:did anyway. you know. Like so partizanship like that's another episode Als agother
quintero]:Yeah,
]:that we've kind of Dived into a little bit, But yeah,
quintero]:I think the message is less. I mean, cult leadership is the message, but I think the overall thing
quintero]:is just cult cult mentality, cult politics,
]:There you go. cult politics Like you've renamed the episode As we've We've gone along, but you know
quintero]:But
]:we
quintero]:I
]:do
quintero]:think
]:it with
quintero]:that
]:capital.
quintero]:we have gone into that like throughout the episode of Like, Explain
]:Oh yeah,
quintero]:to other things, And like that is like, and that comes back to like. These cults of leaders are not actually
quintero]:seen as people. The sin is something else, Gods, or whatever you know. Like
]:I think we do that with a lot of people in the public sphere.
quintero]:M.
]:you know,
quintero]:hm,
]:they become a bit of like fair game, but also this, even like when you think of when you're a little kid, and
]:you realize your teacher has an outside life like a real life, like a family, and they go to the grocery store
]:and your mind is blown that they exist
quintero]:Dum.
]:outside of the realm that you experience them in.
quintero]:You mean they don't plug them into recharge underneath the cafeteria
]:I
quintero]:every
]:mean,
quintero]:day.
]:I mean
quintero]:Like
]:to get the things that they get Done. they must, but know, like, um, yeah, they're kind of like different
]:entities. We do that with capitalists who you know, we attack Galen Weston a lot, And you know that's fair
]:game. We can. You can hit on Galen Weston, and should, but think of all the other millionaires that are
]:just like Galen's, taking the heat for all of us, sucker,
quintero]:Uh,
]:you know, like all of them are ferfixing
quintero]:uh,
]:our prices. All of them are getting rich off our misery. but Galen decides to put himself into commercial,
]:and now he's just like The
quintero]:Those
]:king
quintero]:commercials
]:of mimes.
quintero]:scare me so much. so
]:Well, they
quintero]:anyone
]:should,
quintero]:who can speak like that is just like you know. like like that. Like that artificial carisma,
]:Well,
quintero]:It's horrifying. It really is a scary thing is like. Oh you are. You have no empathy and are very scary
quintero]:like I don't know like that's just
]:Well, it takes a certain kind to lead in that way, right to exploit to that level. But you know about you mentioned
]:this about bidin, and uh, just now about this foe. Carisma. the Greeks, also back to the Greeks,
quintero]:Yeah,
]:warned us of orators, right of people who are well spoken, and that they will persuade you to do things, And
]:it's kind of like look up here and listen and I'm picturing myself just crying to a Boma speeches right, just
]:balling my eye So that that that emotion that those moments evoked, and then looking back on that and feeling
]:so ridiculous and thinking of that warning from the Greeks, that like those are actually the people to be
]:worried about. You know, I say this as a podcastare. That's talking into him
quintero]:We
]:like
quintero]:say
]:all the time. Don't listen to
quintero]:as
]:people
quintero]:rabbelerousers
]:who are well spoken.
quintero]:when they warned about rabble rouses specifically to
]:We. We're not gonna listen
quintero]:H.
]:to that part. I'm just cherry picking what I need
quintero]:H.
]:from the ancient Greeks to make my point, Santiago.
quintero]:No, and
]:Geese,
quintero]:to be fair, some of these ancient Greeks involved, like you know, the Platos, the Aristotles, who they
quintero]:warned about the speakers, and then said, And this is why we need aristocracies and all garches,
quintero]:And you know
]:Yes, no, they're not. They're definitely not like leading examples, but you know.
quintero]:No, but it's but it's funny how like they wren about the thing that they are.
]:Yeah,
quintero]:To you know what I mean, Like they were good speakers. They were like clearly because we're still
quintero]:teaching about them. but it's like and then they would warn about the exact kind of people that
quintero]:they were like.
]:Well, that's an ad hominem attack.
quintero]:M.
]:It's still a valid argument even if there jerks
quintero]:No, but it's just like the irony of it, you know,
]:now
quintero]:like very.
]:and the hypocrisy like, Yeah, that I'm also demonstrating throughout this episode repeatedly.
quintero]:M. Hm,
]:But yeah, now I appreciate coming on to kind of hash this out with me because it just wasn't sitting well
]:and I think I've kind of transition from one camp to another and I freed myself of a lot of cult mentality
]:and include like Nationalism, partisanship and leadership cults, Kind of all, there, all really deserving
]:a globalist socialist revolution. So I'm working on it myself and I thought it would be helpful to have this discussion
]:so maybe audience members could start to challenge their perception of how we view leaders and how we should structure
]:ourselves around them. Because yeah, they shouldn't shape ever Thing. You know, That's really
quintero]:No,
]:not. that wouldn't be pursuant to our goals right, but we do it anyway, so I think there's certainly work
]:to do there, but yeah, we got to start somewhere.
quintero]:Well, yeah, yeah, I don't. I don't know. Cult got to just look at. Learn about cults. I guess, because
quintero]:that's all. this is cult
]:Yeah,
quintero]:mentality. I don't even know anymore.
]:Oh
quintero]:This was just all over the place, but
]:Dam.
quintero]:I feel like we got somewhere, so yeah,
]:Yeah, now I'm still like piecing it together, but we're good.
