Episode 6

full
Published on:

30th Jun 2022

Holding Space: A discussion on allyship

Activist, educator and ally Anna Jessup discusses the important of holding space for folks to share their experiences, connect with likeminded people, and fight back against police violence and colonial oppression. She highlights the work of Fund our Communities, Defund the Police, a community activist group in downtown Toronto.

Alongside host, Jessa McLean, Anna talks about what a good ally does, how to be more inclusive and the importance of consistency when trying to reach as many people as possible.

Transcript
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Greetings, rabble rousers.

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My name is Jessa McLean and welcome

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to Blueprints for Disruption,

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a weekly discussion dedicated to

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amplifying activism across Turtle

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Island.

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Together, we will examine tactics,

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explore motivations, and celebrate

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successes in disrupting the status

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quo.

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This podcast is a proud part of

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new left media.

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Welcome to another edition of

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Blueprints of Disruption.

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Today I have with me activist,

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teacher and ally Anna Jessup.

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And it is part of a group called

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Fund Our Communities and Defund the

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Police.

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They're a Toronto based group that,

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among other things, have a weekly

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rally at the Toronto police

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headquarters every Thursday evening.

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During our interview, Anna makes it

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clear that she is just one

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person, one contributor, a settler

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who's doing what she believes is

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needed from all allies.

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She sees herself as just.

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A small.

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Contributor amongst those that

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she describes as much braver than

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herself. For the organizers and

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activists listening out there.

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I encourage you to pay particular

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attention to the intersectional

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approach, fund our communities and

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defund the police uses and

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the various ways that different

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groups can help each other out.

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Like the other episodes that we've

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done, we're not just going to

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explore their tactics, but also

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their motivations.

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We're going to hear about the relationship

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building that needs to be at the

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center of all great movement

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building, as we all should.

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Anna continually learns from those

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around her.

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We'll hear about how she uses that

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knowledge and

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relies on her comrades to

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create spaces for folks

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to really connect, share

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and ultimately fight back

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against police violence and

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colonial oppression.

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Let's listen in.

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And it's going to introduce herself.

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We hate speaking for people here.

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So, Anna, please tell us, you know,

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who are you and what do you

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do?

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Well, I'd have to say the most fun

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thing I do is

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raise my 12 year old child,

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Max.

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And then I also for fun

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and for a paycheck.

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I'm an elementary school teacher in

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the Toronto District School board

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in the north east area

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of Scarborough.

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Scarborough in a

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really wonderful community called

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Malvern.

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And yeah,

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and then I, I also do

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work with

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a group called Fund Our Communities

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Defund the Police named after the

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banner. And it's a that that

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we carry and it's a grassroots

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group. We meet every Thursday

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outside of Toronto police

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headquarters with a banner that says

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Fund our communities, defund the

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police. And

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and because we're there consistently,

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it's it's drawing

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drawing some like a steady like, you

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know, some regulars.

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And that's a community that I

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really enjoy being with every

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Thursday.

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No fail like rain

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shine no matter what not you.

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And what are you doing down there?

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Well, the our demand

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is transfer wealth

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from police, military and big

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business into sustainable

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publicly owned infrastructure in the

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hands of the people.

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And

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so it's a we chose that

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because every oppressed

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people struggle at some point, at

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some point must confront the police.

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And that means that every struggle,

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regardless of where geographically,

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regardless of where intersectional,

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we at some point

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can benefit from that struggle.

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Because whether it's here,

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whether it's in Guatemala,

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you know, or any place in the world,

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colonial, colonial

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capital pays police

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to do its dirtiest work.

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So we'll get a little bit more into

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the issue of defunding the police

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and funding our communities.

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But I mean,

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when you're down there, are

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you engaging with people?

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Are you you've got a banner,

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obviously, to let people know

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exactly what your messaging is,

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do leaflet, do you engage people,

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do engage the police?

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I mean, they must be down there.

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It's their.

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Headquarters.

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Yeah, they engage

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us. Actually, they are.

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You know what? They are regulars.

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It's really sweet.

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I mean, they are a regular audience

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and this is beneficial

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sometimes because people

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who have been incarcerated

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and who are also victims of

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residential schools have a lot to

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say of the police.

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And since they're stationed there,

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they can't really leave their

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captive audience.

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And so basically what we do, we

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have banner like we hate.

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We are this rope that

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goes like between two trees right

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in front of the entrance to the

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Toronto police headquarters, which

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is also next door to Native Child

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and Family services,

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not so coincidentally.

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And so and so

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that's like a Palestinian flag and,

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you know, land back, you know,

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progressive pride flag, like all the

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all the intersectional struggles.

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We have a soundsystem and

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it's an open mic with

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with a speaking order inverse

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in inverse order to

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your intersectional privilege.

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That means racialized women speak

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first. And

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and it's an open mic, you

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know, and we usually do a live

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stream. So people who have been on

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the front line of

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police violence, which is to be

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on the front line of

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colonial oppression, tell

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their story.

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And while they tell their story,

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we live stream

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fliers go out.

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We also make sure to promote

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work being done by

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by racialized

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grassroots organizations,

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anti-colonial anti-racist

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abolitionist groups, so that we

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are very focused on putting

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our people power behind other groups

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that might need like labor done for

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them.

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So firing a

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spoken word and we're right

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across the street from a

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from a posh

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bar where the cops like to hang

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out and there's usually a patio

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there. And so we've got an audience

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there, too. We play music.

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Oftentimes we, you know, we'll take

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the street and just like dance,

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there's often around dance.

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And

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because it's very much like it's

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very much led by the indigenous

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folks who come out, We have all

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this like, you know, like, you know,

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not great music, right?

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So, you know, there's music and

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dancing and sometimes in the street

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it's fun.

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Oh, my goodness.

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I had no idea, to be honest, to the

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extent of the participation level,

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you know, because something so

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sustained, you know.

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Every week. How do you have the

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energy to put something

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like that together

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every single week?

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It's not like it's always a lot of

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people. And, you know, the very

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first time

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I'll confess to have

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had to having weekly

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Wednesday night panic attacks.

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Oh my God, it's Toronto police

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headquarters. Boom, boom, boom.

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What's going on? You know, imagining

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all these things.

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It's been fine.

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I'm not saying that it isn't tricky

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sometimes,

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but.

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But I also wondered about the

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numbers of people, like, how are we

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going to maintain people every week?

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And I but I decide,

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you know, and the first time

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that we did it, I thought to myself,

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I can just convey to people that

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like this is about the organizing.

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It's not about demonstrating like

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you can't demonstrate your power

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before you have organized it.

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And if we are here

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every Thursday,

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people will know to find us here.

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And so, you know, during

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the worst weather here in Toronto,

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sometimes it was just two of us.

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Sometimes it was my friend Richard

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and me, and that was it, you

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know, But but not usually.

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It's not like, well, you know, we

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usually get, you know, at least ten

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people. Sometimes it's more or

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sometimes a demo that's walking

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nearby will join us.

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And so there was this beautiful

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confluence of, like, you know,

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pro-Palestinian

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land back demonstration,

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just filling the street once.

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And that's not it.

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Mean, there's other stuff, too.

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There's also land back square.

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Tell me more.

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And there were some

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like other like those other groups

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that I see.

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Because one thing that we do

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is just

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put resources behind.

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Like if you want to build

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alliances into it to help

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organize the left in Toronto,

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it's important to kind of notice who

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can use help, who can use a banner,

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who can use some people to put out

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fliers, who can use people posturing

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their stuff, and then

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to offer those as services.

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Like, it's just like, here, we'll

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volunteer this for you need a banner

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or you want a parent says, What?

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Wet'suwet'en and strong.

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Fantastic. Oh, you want to take our

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done that square and turn it into

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land back square. It sounds awesome.

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Okay, we'll make a banner and then

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just like, put it together.

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And then there's this incredible

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group that, you know, with a lot of

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people who are also at

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Toronto police headquarters every

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week, who occupy formerly

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Dundas Square, Young and Dundas

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every Sunday from 4:00

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until whenever the whenever people

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get tired.

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And and so there's a lot

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of crossover there and that turns

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into a street party.

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It's incredible how like you just

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like we just go there and stand

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in the intersection and I and I felt

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like as as a settler,

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I'm not recognized as any kind of

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leader in other communities because,

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like, for someone else.

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Joey Twin will be recognized as,

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as the contact person for

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Toronto police headquarters, or they

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might know beneath or

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they might know a school

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like there are other people who

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they'll they'll contact.

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Right?

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And of course and land back square

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as much more even more so indigenous

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led and so someone

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and there's something about that

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that for me as a as a settler

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who does not have as much courage as

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the people I organized with straight

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up,

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I, I get a lot of courage from

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someone just saying, okay, I'm like,

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okay, what do I do now? Like, just

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stand here, hold the banner.

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Okay. All right.

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And the cars are all coming honking,

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you know, like, okay, buddy,

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so you're going to be an asshole.

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So here is my I'm just recording

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your and stripping your

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license plate, okay?

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You know, and then eventually they

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calm down, or sometimes you just

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make eye contact and hold up your

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fist and try to cheer them up.

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And they do.

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But eventually, regardless

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of the tactic, they get the picture

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that the intersection is closed,

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they're not going through.

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And then people begin.

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And then after the border, like

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the border to each entry point to

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to land back square has been closed.

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Then, you know, cars

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has begun to detour themselves.

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People begin to come in, set up the

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sound system,

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and then the speakers start and it's

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indigenous speakers,

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women who have fought to have get

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their children back who who know the

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inside of

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of the prison system

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from from being, you know, from

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unjust convictions and

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and who are 60 scoop

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survivors and residential school

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survivors like a number of the

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people who are like a large number

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of these people are from that

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generation of residential schools

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and will describe in detail

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the trauma beginning with the

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residential school system onwards

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through through

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the prison system, and they're being

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targeted by police trafficking.

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So there's a lot of knowledge about

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about the logistics of

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human trafficking and

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the way it systemically preys on

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indigenous women that you will

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get right there listening to women

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on the microphone telling you about

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it. And

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and so that's going on while people

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watch, you know, block off the

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borders. Eventually the police show

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up.

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At first they were somewhat there

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have been times when they've been

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hostile and fought.

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I was not there during some of a lot

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of those times when it was first

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established. One car just

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I saw it on YouTube.

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I wasn't there,

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drove right through the banner and

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just carried the Wet'suwet'en

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strong right up young street

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flapping in the wind. So we made

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another banner.

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But lately

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it's been cars have been more

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respectful and the police, when they

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when they show up, they'll block the

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intersection so that there's to keep

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everyone safe

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and they can do some of that work

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for us.

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And then eventually young

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people show up and fill up the

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streets and play music.

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And and it's like this dance party

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going down from Dundas

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to wherever on Young

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and.

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Yeah, so

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it can be a lot of fun, but it's

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not. But it can also be tricky to

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not have your wits about you.

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Right.

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So yeah, I imagine

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like when I like the live

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streaming, I imagine that's

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as much as reach out

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as it is protection as

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well, Right.

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That you're documenting

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what's happening and like you said,

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kind of thwarting the

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onslaught of haters by letting

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them know that they are going to go

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viral should they misbehave.

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But, you know, taking

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up space in front of Toronto

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police headquarters.

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And I

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mean, that's quite the decision to

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do that. And and

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that's a very busy intersection.

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Young and Dundas could be

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very disruptive.

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Separate locations might have been

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confusing and how I protect print

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how I presented it, but

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they are within walking distance

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within then a good, you know, an

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easy walking distance

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and Yeah.

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Yeah. And you haven't just disrupted

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the traffic or the flow, but you've

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actually created a space to

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hear stories, to disseminate

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critical information that folks

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are clearly not getting through

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other channels.

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So, you know, when it was first

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described to me, it was a demo, you

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know, like I pictured a banner or

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some leaflets.

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Hashtag defund the police.

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But it's clearly so much more

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than that, even

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from the way that you've structured

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it, you know that you've providing

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a bit of an alternative way of doing

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things and that space

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you're creating,

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that's like.

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I imagine maybe that wasn't the

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initial. Like the very first time

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you guys went down on a Thursday

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and stood outside?

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Was it reactionary?

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Was it in response to

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one of these horrific

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displays of police brutality?

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You know, can you remember that

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first Thursday where you.

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Certainly can tell.

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Us. Yeah.

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You know, I got I was inspired.

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I got the idea from

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Jewish Women against the Occupation

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because years ago they

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used to.

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And I think there's another group

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that still does consisting

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of many of the same people occupy

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the space outside the Israeli

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consulate on Bloor Street in Toronto

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every Friday consistently,

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no matter what.

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And and someone told

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me about that and I thought, wow,

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that's so cool, right?

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Because I because I know where to

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find them. I can fit it into my

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schedule. I can just be there.

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Their steady presence.

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And it stuck with me.

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And I and I, I thought about

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about the power of that to draw

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people, to build a community and

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actually to just sort of like

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occupy, to claim

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a space for for people that

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there was something about that that

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that seemed that was effective

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to me and and reliable

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and and I and so I didn't know how

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to do it. I was thinking about all

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but I thought this is a really

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important thing to do.

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And,

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and then during the

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pandemic, we started doing

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something similar, you know,

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with social housing, Green Deal

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and and then

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decided the group of us decide

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that fund our communities to fund

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the police was just more pertinent

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because it's because

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it's a.

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It resonates with all the different

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movements. Like it's it really

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it gets to like the, you know, the

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the penetrating

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spike of colonialism

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when it really when it gets you

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personally, it's through the police

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or the military.

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Right. Very often.

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Right. But it's from one of those

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budget lines.

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And but yeah, it was about

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occupying. So we're creating a

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consistent space.

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A good a good friend, an old friend

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of mine, John Moore,

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around the same time, had been

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holding regular sacred fire

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in Dufferin Grove and had

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over years like established his

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community by being regular there.

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And I forget what day was it always

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be inviting me out and I didn't go

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blah, blah, blah that you know, but

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he was doing something so

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significant, so important, built a

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community with other people there.

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And

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and that community very much

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is like part of what Of who like

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that? That community.

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A lot of those folks come to our

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events to come to the

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events at

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at Toronto police headquarters.

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And so John Moore deserves

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a lot of credit in building that

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community and having that consistent

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space. Right.

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You know where to find us on a bad

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day.

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You just want to see some friends.

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You know, you can find these

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people right here.

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Because that's one thing I

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definitely wanted to ask you is, you

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know, why this approach, why

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this regular

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weekly which to like

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an organizer to me sounds

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exhausting, but then so

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reliable, like you said,

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about the Jewish Women against the

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occupation that you knew where

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to find them.

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And that is so comforting,

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especially in a city

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with so many people that are so

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frustrated by so many things.

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And if they just knew that, you

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know, maybe not this Thursday, but

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next Thursday, I can be there or the

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following Thursday or

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the way that you described

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another demonstration would

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know that if it's on a Thursday and

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they pass by, they could

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end up at a bit of a

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street party.

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And that consistency

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is so critical,

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I think, to building the community.

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Right. It allows that accessibility.

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So again, if you're not available

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this Thursday, next Thursday, join

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us.

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You like this this week.

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We are here again next week.

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You know, bring a friend.

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It makes it so much easier.

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There's no doodle Paul when all

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available you know

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Yeah that one time deal

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and then live streaming it obviously

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people can then participate.

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Do you find

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those days though that it's just

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maybe the two of you

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in the rain?

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Do you ever think of stopping?

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Do you ever think.

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No.

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That's well, I mean, one thing

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that's really I mean, there were a

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point there was a point where I was

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like, I can't do this.

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Like someone else has have to.

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But then I realize, Hold on, hold

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on, hold on.

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This is actually like I don't have

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two other people want to do it.

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Like and so it's just that also that

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that like holding it enough

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that you realize, okay, there's

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so many other people, you know,

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like, you know, Richard's

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going to be there, John's going

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to be there.

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The Squires son is going to be

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there, Other people are going to be

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there.

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And and I and I don't have to.

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So like, if something happens, you

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know, like I you know, I'm a single

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mom, so, like, you know, something

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comes up.

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All right.

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I'm not there this week, but there

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but once it becomes regular

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and it's got routine,

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you know, people know the people

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know what to do.

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They know the two trees.

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They know where the rope goes.

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You know, they know how the

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microphone works.

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Ray The cis

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white males can wait their turn.

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I, i, I like how you work

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your mike. I know in some of our

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organizing we do it we call it an

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equity mike right on

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Zoom. But that

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reverse order is

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everybody knows well most people

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know exactly what that means.

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So I mean that's just such a

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beautiful approach and

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I can only imagine how you must

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feel then on those days where

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it's maximum capacity.

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There are songs, there are

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speakers waiting at the mic.

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You hear stories you've never heard

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before, and it makes all those rainy

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days, Yeah, worth it.

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You know where you weren't sure

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anybody would show up or how it

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would turn out. So, I mean, that's

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that's truly beautiful.

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And people and also people

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appreciate it because, you know, I

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think there's this idea that some

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folks have that a demonstration

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is supposed to be big. You're

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supposed to fill the streets.

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Now, how you get to that point,

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we're not quite sure, but you must

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fill the streets.

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And there's really just for this

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photo image in people's minds

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of that victory moment.

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And and what's really cool

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is that, you know, if you're afraid

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of if you're afraid of not getting

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out those numbers, you don't have to

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set that expectation.

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You can just be like, no, we're just

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we're going to be here consistently

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and people actually

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kind. Very too, you know.

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You know, feeling like, oh, that

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wasn't enough to like, know, you

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know what? You were there every

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single day, even when it was like.

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And it's and it gets a lot of

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respect. People appreciate the work

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and then they get to actually see

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the work of of work.

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And of course, it takes years to to

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build. You know, it's the slow work

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of organizing and and you're making

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it open and you're making it public

Speaker:

and and it's fun.

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Who are you appealing to?

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You know, when you're down there,

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when you hold up the sign that says

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deep and you know, who are you

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feeling to.

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A people who

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have been fucked over by the police.

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Which is a.

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Lot.

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Yeah, it is.

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But I imagine, you know, we need

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allies as well to find.

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Beyond building the communities,

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which is critical. So we don't want

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to be dismissive of of that.

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But if we just set that aside,

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are we growing the community

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using these tactics?

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Are we getting allies who maybe

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didn't don't have experience like

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they hear these women telling

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stories of trafficking and they hear

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of the sixties scoop or, you know,

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acts of police brutality?

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Are they stopping and staying?

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Yeah.

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That, you know, that must be a real

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disruption for their night,

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especially in some of these

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locations. Maybe they're going out.

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They want to have a good time.

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They stumble across this,

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you know.

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That is that that's the impact

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you're going for?

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Well, it's I mean, it's very easy to

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just drive by if you want.

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It's very easy to walk by if you

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want. But if you you know, you

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smell the you smell the sweet grass

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burning. You see this group of

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people. And sometimes it is

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a nice big group like, you know,

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like it's pretty hard to miss a lot

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of time, you know, like, whoa,

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you know, there's something

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happening here, and it's but it's

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also positive.

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So, like, it's so important

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to keep it fun, like bring some

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food, individually wrapped food

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so that we can share it and, you

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know, got some COVID safety there.

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And and then

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we're and also, you know, just like,

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you know, so there's food, there's

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music, keeping

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it upbeat and keeping it fun.

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Having a sound system where someone

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gets to be Joey is usually our

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deejay.

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She's got

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the best tunes.

Speaker:

So, yeah, it it

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changes people's day.

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But then when we can say, well,

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we're here next Thursday, and I'm

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like, Oh, right. And then sometimes

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they show up, you know, and

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there's a lot of there's also a lot

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of contact with encampments

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that have been evicted, right?

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So so when we first we had our very

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first gathering on July

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1st, last year in front of Toronto

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police headquarters, and that was

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shortly after the residential

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school graves had been found.

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Now, we didn't know when we were

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first setting up that location

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that the graves were going to be

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found because we were

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planning it before, before the news

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broke.

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But it natural.

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But anything that comes up

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can naturally in some way fit

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into this anti-colonial struggle.

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And and so that

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that made a connection.

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So in terms of growing growing that

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the movement that meant

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that there was this really solid

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connection with indigenous

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communities folks who are indigenous

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folks who are organizing here in

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Toronto, when

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something comes up in the news about

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another another,

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you know, shooting of a black

Speaker:

person, you know, by police

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or, you know, someone know someone

Speaker:

in Toronto, you know, or

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there's an immediately there's

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a more people who connect to that

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who can connect to that spot.

Speaker:

And a lot of folks

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during the encampment, evictions

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here in Toronto last summer

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made a direct connection And

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and so it allows naturally

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allows for

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us to connect to things that are

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going on in the city that,

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you know, all the left wing

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struggles can connect to it.

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If you're a left wing activist, you

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know, you got

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you got a strong interest in

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defunding the police.

Speaker:

Well, yeah, Your messaging is

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certainly anti-capitalist

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as well as anti-colonial, which

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essentially are tied to one another.

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We know that.

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Would you say most of the people

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that participate, you know, consider

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themselves anti-capitalist or is

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that a little bit of work that needs

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to be done?

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You know, it's interesting you ask

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that because, I mean, I

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I definitely see

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this as a as a as a anti-capitalist

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socialist struggle.

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Like, you know, ultimately I want us

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to you know, I think we need

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an international socialist

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movement to overturn imperialism.

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And especially now that

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we're we're in the midst of

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what what is emerging as another

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imperial war. And I think

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so. I mean, certainly I take it from

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a.

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From a socialist perspective, an

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anti-capitalist perspective, when

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organizing with folks,

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indigenous folks here in Turtle

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Island, that language is not really.

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Particular like that doesn't really

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engage so much.

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And so kind of bridging that

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like, you know, the language that.

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That my friend Joey uses to

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talk about these struggles.

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And my friend John, you know, like,

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I like those.

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Like, there's.

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Like they're teaching

Speaker:

me about, like, how to organize.

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And I am learning a lot.

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Like, I'd be, you know, like there's

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there's a different method of

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grassroots organizing that that

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Joey and John apply.

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And similarly, I've got this method

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that I've been using.

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And so there's also it's

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a little bit like learning

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each other's language, like, you

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know, like talking

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about the terms that get used.

Speaker:

And so and yes,

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there is definitely work there.

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You know what we're doing that work

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with each other.

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I like that with each other, you

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know, because and certainly

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being indigenous led provides

Speaker:

that alternate perspective,

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one that we're trying to amplify

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right as a possible solution

Speaker:

to all the issues that we

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face as a society.

Speaker:

So yeah, our end goal

Speaker:

I think is shared there, you know, a

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socialist revolution

Speaker:

and like this work has

Speaker:

to go on on so many different

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levels, right?

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You talk about filling the streets.

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You know, we do have to fill the

Speaker:

streets eventually.

Speaker:

Yeah, but I,

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I definitely wrote that quote down

Speaker:

from you. I feel like I want it on a

Speaker:

T-shirt.

Speaker:

You can't demonstrate power

Speaker:

until you've organized it.

Speaker:

And so this network

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building, these connections, I mean,

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it's what a beautiful foray

Speaker:

into activism.

Speaker:

Should someone stumble across this

Speaker:

and open their eyes

Speaker:

and join in and join up the next

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Thursday?

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I think that's just such a.

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Kind of organic grass roots

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approach.

Speaker:

And I mean, you say sometimes

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it's small numbers, sometimes it's

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large numbers. But you describe so

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many different groups already that

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are interconnected and

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have very similar tactics.

Speaker:

You know, maybe not the same, but,

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you know, this consistency, this

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woven ally where,

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you know, it's trade and

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labor and what do

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you need and how can you help us?

Speaker:

And that is just so wonderful.

Speaker:

I mean, can you remember your first.

Speaker:

Experience with activism.

Speaker:

Was it anything like this?

Speaker:

I cannot remember.

Speaker:

Yeah. So.

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Well, okay, so the very first time

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my my dad was reading

Speaker:

a book by Linda

Speaker:

Mccuaig called Behind Closed Doors,

Speaker:

and it was just when the GST was

Speaker:

being introduced, which was a

Speaker:

regressive tax.

Speaker:

This book was about the big

Speaker:

business is paying nothing for a

Speaker:

huge, huge tax cut.

Speaker:

Old are you on that?

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This is what I was 11.

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Okay.

Speaker:

So that's how I got

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it.

Speaker:

So, you know, I

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was you know, I didn't

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have a whole lot else going on at

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the time, you know.

Speaker:

So I had time on my hands and I

Speaker:

wrote this letter to Michael Wilson

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and underlined things

Speaker:

and read, you know, this makes

Speaker:

me mad.

Speaker:

I wrote Marker underneath there.

Speaker:

And then I went around the

Speaker:

neighborhood getting signatures.

Speaker:

And that was just so much fun.

Speaker:

I mailed it to him and got

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and didn't get a response.

Speaker:

And then my dad said, Why don't I

Speaker:

can email a tour MP is a liberal,

Speaker:

That guy's in the opposition.

Speaker:

Okay. So I sent it to him and then I

Speaker:

got a response from Michael Wilson.

Speaker:

I was so excited and apparently

Speaker:

the petitions got let Red in the

Speaker:

house and that was the first

Speaker:

day I was really exciting.

Speaker:

And then now, okay, I want to do

Speaker:

something else cause that's a real

Speaker:

buzz. I really like that.

Speaker:

And then, you know, next year

Speaker:

I was in grade six and my my dad was

Speaker:

playing like I was listening to this

Speaker:

radio program by David Suzuki

Speaker:

called Matter Survival is about

Speaker:

climate change and about like, you

Speaker:

know, the future.

Speaker:

If we continue on the path of like,

Speaker:

you know, carbon consumption.

Speaker:

And it was so scary

Speaker:

and I'm like, oh my God, I had to do

Speaker:

something. But like, I can't just

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listen to this and not do anything.

Speaker:

It's it's horrible.

Speaker:

So so I started this club

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and then we'd meet in the library

Speaker:

every Wednesday and,

Speaker:

and listen to these tapes.

Speaker:

But it got kind of boring.

Speaker:

And then my, my wonderful science

Speaker:

teacher from the previous year

Speaker:

stepped in, and this guy really made

Speaker:

a difference. He

Speaker:

so he can. I beg, beg, please.

Speaker:

Mr. Gugino, will you please?

Speaker:

I'm busy. I'm going to Please,

Speaker:

please, please. And so we decided to

Speaker:

supervise it. So we had a staff

Speaker:

person, and then he helped us up

Speaker:

with an environmentalist.

Speaker:

Now is a park named after him in

Speaker:

Aurora and is

Speaker:

trying to remember his name now.

Speaker:

They'll probably come to me.

Speaker:

But it's it's slipped my mind at

Speaker:

this moment. And he was organizing

Speaker:

to save a forest that I didn't even

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know was due to be sold

Speaker:

to a land developer right behind my

Speaker:

house, right near us.

Speaker:

And it was it's a beautiful little

Speaker:

forest. And there was a a sign

Speaker:

up that I hadn't, but that went up

Speaker:

around the same time that I wouldn't

Speaker:

have noticed say that it

Speaker:

was due to they were going to blow

Speaker:

the whole thing down.

Speaker:

And, and there were some councilors

Speaker:

organizing to fight that.

Speaker:

And, and so Mr. Gudino helped

Speaker:

organize his students, who I realize

Speaker:

now, in retrospect, he was

Speaker:

encouraging to come to that our our

Speaker:

weekly meetings in the library

Speaker:

and they organized they got like 500

Speaker:

signatures and

Speaker:

and then class

Speaker:

where in Burke that's the name of

Speaker:

the activist.

Speaker:

And

Speaker:

so the so class

Speaker:

where member came and you know,

Speaker:

visited my house and like, you know,

Speaker:

talked to my dad and helped me

Speaker:

figure out, okay, it looks like

Speaker:

they're taking deputations.

Speaker:

First time I ever heard of

Speaker:

deputation, you can go to City hall

Speaker:

or town council.

Speaker:

Aurora, very conservative

Speaker:

town.

Speaker:

Very still is like.

Speaker:

I mean, I love my whatever, you

Speaker:

know, it's like, oh my God.

Speaker:

But so we could depute

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and

Speaker:

and so we got on the list

Speaker:

and we presented our petition.

Speaker:

And then later the

Speaker:

mayor of

Speaker:

the town, I mean, there were a lot

Speaker:

of councilors working hard in this

Speaker:

came and visit our environmental

Speaker:

club for a lunch to

Speaker:

give his side of the story.

Speaker:

And then the parents showed up and I

Speaker:

was a little bit concerned.

Speaker:

I didn't really want him to come,

Speaker:

but but he did.

Speaker:

And we got to to, you

Speaker:

know, asking questions.

Speaker:

And I, I recall being

Speaker:

kind of angry toward him, like, not

Speaker:

really. But anyway, but he came into

Speaker:

this and but like, that

Speaker:

was something, right?

Speaker:

And so it's like, okay.

Speaker:

And then quite frankly, just they

Speaker:

didn't they didn't you know what?

Speaker:

I didn't even realize I lost track

Speaker:

of of that forest.

Speaker:

I didn't know because it didn't get

Speaker:

taken down.

Speaker:

This is not what's going to be my

Speaker:

passion. Did you see the forest in.

Speaker:

Did state I mean like

Speaker:

the city councilors and class where

Speaker:

member Yeah and also like

Speaker:

I imagine I mean I realize

Speaker:

now the mayor came to visit our

Speaker:

school.

Speaker:

He must have thought that that had

Speaker:

some impact.

Speaker:

I don't know. Like, you know, he

Speaker:

took a little time out to give his

Speaker:

side of the story.

Speaker:

But I thought that

Speaker:

when it didn't get take, I never

Speaker:

met. I did not think that we had

Speaker:

succeeded. I never imagined that we

Speaker:

wouldn't. I just assumed that it

Speaker:

must have been another region

Speaker:

because, you know, they play these

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little games.

Speaker:

Oh, yeah. That like which area will

Speaker:

get you lost the details.

Speaker:

And I got confused by the details

Speaker:

and thought that they just meant

Speaker:

some other region of that

Speaker:

of that wooded area that

Speaker:

that was more sparse.

Speaker:

And I thought that for decades.

Speaker:

And then eating lunch with,

Speaker:

you know, came to visit my dad for

Speaker:

dinner once he goes, well, you know,

Speaker:

you saved that spot.

Speaker:

Like what? What was Well, you know,

Speaker:

they had they had a sign.

Speaker:

He reminded me of the sign which had

Speaker:

been posted right next to the most

Speaker:

densely wooded area.

Speaker:

So they took it down.

Speaker:

I was like, You're right, They did.

Speaker:

That is exactly what my God,

Speaker:

they probably they would think

Speaker:

they would have taken it, you know?

Speaker:

And I mean, of course, there are a

Speaker:

whole lot of you know, is a whole

Speaker:

lot of work that went into that.

Speaker:

And we just got to, you know, be

Speaker:

part of it.

Speaker:

But that was that was an exciting

Speaker:

thing. And then I basically didn't

Speaker:

do any activism again.

Speaker:

Jezza That was like the peak

Speaker:

of my political life

Speaker:

until university when I

Speaker:

got into York, you know, and I went

Speaker:

to York University and ran

Speaker:

into an amazing group of activists.

Speaker:

Joel Harden was what was one of

Speaker:

those and just like really amazing

Speaker:

like that. That was when I

Speaker:

discovered socialism

Speaker:

and like real grassroots activism

Speaker:

and direct act.

Speaker:

It was a wonderful mentoring

Speaker:

experience and just met such

Speaker:

wonderful people.

Speaker:

And and I credit

Speaker:

them with a lot of my knowledge

Speaker:

today. So good folks,

Speaker:

they're good name, I hope.

Speaker:

But there are a lot there are still

Speaker:

a lot of them are still in the left

Speaker:

today.

Speaker:

Very soon, like I went to York as

Speaker:

well for political science.

Speaker:

And I wouldn't say

Speaker:

like that's where I started

Speaker:

my activism, but that

Speaker:

was very full of Marxist,

Speaker:

that school, right?

Speaker:

Thankfully, yes.

Speaker:

I had a lot of fun with

Speaker:

really great professors like David

Speaker:

McNally

Speaker:

comes to mind.

Speaker:

I was lucky to have him,

Speaker:

especially if we're going to talk

Speaker:

about anti-racism.

Speaker:

But that was such

Speaker:

a nice story. But the forest and

Speaker:

like you say it kind of

Speaker:

dismissively, but you know,

Speaker:

deputizing and learning those

Speaker:

processes and the levers of

Speaker:

power and who you had to kind of go

Speaker:

to. I mean, you were getting that

Speaker:

instruction quite early, which,

Speaker:

you know, regardless whether you

Speaker:

used it for a few years, is is not

Speaker:

the point.

Speaker:

And it's so funny because you're

Speaker:

taking a completely different

Speaker:

approach now, right?

Speaker:

Like we've all

Speaker:

signed the petitions, we've all

Speaker:

written to politicians.

Speaker:

We know where most of the time that

Speaker:

go, even though you were successful,

Speaker:

you saved the dang forest.

Speaker:

But you know, police,

Speaker:

we won't defund the police through

Speaker:

petitions. We know that, right?

Speaker:

Do you have any political allies in

Speaker:

your work? You know, you ever had

Speaker:

any elected politicians

Speaker:

down there

Speaker:

helping boost your visibility or is

Speaker:

this a bit of a hard sell for

Speaker:

those folks?

Speaker:

I I'm not I'm not saying that they

Speaker:

wouldn't, but

Speaker:

I just.

Speaker:

Joseph Oh, my God.

Speaker:

You know, like, I mean, so I've got

Speaker:

yeah, you know, I think you really

Speaker:

identified the path there, you know,

Speaker:

and that was my first time being on

Speaker:

a council and listening to them say,

Speaker:

Well, you know what, We, we have a

Speaker:

nice project for you.

Speaker:

What would you like to be on our

Speaker:

environmental committee? Okay, Now,

Speaker:

so we were thinking you could go out

Speaker:

with your friends and pick up

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garbage and, you know, or,

Speaker:

or do something with Green bought,

Speaker:

you know, with blue boxes, which you

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just come out, you know, and

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thinking, no, no, we want

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to stop the corporations from

Speaker:

polluting.

Speaker:

Right? But that's not what you guys

Speaker:

want to do. You want.

Speaker:

To just keep me busy.

Speaker:

To pick a book, right?

Speaker:

Like when I had my son pick me up

Speaker:

and basically marathon.

Speaker:

Thing, you know, I'm not like, sure.

Speaker:

But, you know, like, I just I don't

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like where this is going.

Speaker:

And, and of course

Speaker:

that's exactly what happens for

Speaker:

as long as you're involved in

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bureaucratic organizing.

Speaker:

And I'm not saying that it doesn't

Speaker:

have its merits, but, you

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know, I was very active in my unions

Speaker:

on the executive of my of my union

Speaker:

for a while and and did a lot of

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work with folks try, you know,

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organizing, trying to build a

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committee, a community organizing

Speaker:

like a committee that would

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I mean what I really what we really

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wanted to see what I wanted to see

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was a citywide

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network of parent

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teacher community teacher councils

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sponsored by the union.

Speaker:

Right. And and so we really worked

Speaker:

hard on this. And the thing is that

Speaker:

it's very community organizing

Speaker:

is really antithetical

Speaker:

to a lot of

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the.

Speaker:

Established bureaucracies

Speaker:

that we use in politics.

Speaker:

A lot of that machinery just doesn't

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operate that way.

Speaker:

And so

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there's a point where,

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like, I just decided, well, it seems

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that I just, you know, the higher

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you go up the ladder, the less

Speaker:

maneuverability has to have more

Speaker:

power to do stuff.

Speaker:

Or do I just have your disability so

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restrictive?

Speaker:

Yeah. Like this isn't fun.

Speaker:

Yeah. You know, and

Speaker:

I'm not saying it doesn't have a

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place like mobile light.

Speaker:

You can, you can revive the union.

Speaker:

You can you can, you know, do

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incredible work.

Speaker:

But I think it's.

Speaker:

But I, I can't say that

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I've really focused on trying to get

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the attention of politicians.

Speaker:

I

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when my spouse was still alive, I

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was married to.

Speaker:

I really love my dude.

Speaker:

He was he was awesome.

Speaker:

He was my comrade and I and

Speaker:

he was with me during a lot of union

Speaker:

organizing. And he used to say, Hey,

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just don't get caught up with these

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big names. Ignore them.

Speaker:

That's not who you're trying to

Speaker:

organize.

Speaker:

Like they're already political.

Speaker:

Don't worry about it.

Speaker:

Forget them, right?

Speaker:

Organize the people who who don't

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have an organization yet to

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be with those. But that's who you

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need to throw your, you know, your

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power. That's who you want to

Speaker:

support.

Speaker:

And it just makes so much sense.

Speaker:

That is good advice.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

You know, and then the politicians

Speaker:

want to show up, you know, maybe

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we'll let them.

Speaker:

Yeah. I mean,

Speaker:

the amount of wheel spinning

Speaker:

that I see people do

Speaker:

to just to get the ear of,

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you know, a certain critic.

Speaker:

To get a certain policy

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to a certain table.

Speaker:

It takes so much effort

Speaker:

and like you essentially have

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to sell your soul half the time

Speaker:

because you have to drift to center

Speaker:

to make anything palatable enough

Speaker:

for some of those people.

Speaker:

But I had a I

Speaker:

was talking to a guest earlier about

Speaker:

like clout chasing, too.

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So, you know,

Speaker:

if you

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somehow if you're if there are

Speaker:

politicians drawn to your

Speaker:

actions, sometimes

Speaker:

you start to wonder,

Speaker:

who am I doing the right thing?

Speaker:

Is this become.

Speaker:

That's right.

Speaker:

Too too soft,

Speaker:

too easy for them

Speaker:

to glom onto, you know, without any

Speaker:

substance. So not

Speaker:

to mention that it pushes people

Speaker:

away to the partizanship and

Speaker:

whatnot. But I thought, like,

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it's really hard to even hear a lot

Speaker:

of politicians talk about

Speaker:

defunding the police.

Speaker:

I know Matthew Green has been pretty

Speaker:

vocal and Joel, I think has

Speaker:

said a little bit.

Speaker:

But right

Speaker:

now the party on the left, the NDP,

Speaker:

you know, currently supports more

Speaker:

RCMP funding and

Speaker:

it's really not on the political

Speaker:

agenda.

Speaker:

How do we get it there, though?

Speaker:

We need those people to actually fix

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the budgets, right?

Speaker:

So, you know, here in Toronto, I

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guess we're really talking, God help

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you, John Tory,

Speaker:

please don't let him win again,

Speaker:

because that man will never defund

Speaker:

the police. Not not a nickel.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

So how do you get them?

Speaker:

Like we build these communities.

Speaker:

But your. Your banner has a

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goal, right?

Speaker:

Like, how do we get

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there?

Speaker:

How do we.

Speaker:

Well, you know, there has been some

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criticism. Just the only the

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criticism that I agree with most in

Speaker:

terms of that banners, I should say,

Speaker:

abolish the police.

Speaker:

Yeah, right. And yeah.

Speaker:

We'll get there.

Speaker:

Like Once Upon a Time.

Speaker:

And that was that was one of the

Speaker:

first criticisms that, that, that,

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that struck me.

Speaker:

And I, I mean the thing is that

Speaker:

like I'm also aware that

Speaker:

as long as.

Speaker:

We say as long as if

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we think about how are we going to

Speaker:

get them.

Speaker:

And then there's another way of

Speaker:

saying it's like, well, it's not

Speaker:

about them.

Speaker:

We're going to build I mean,

Speaker:

revolution and I'm in it and

Speaker:

I'm and that is a good way to think

Speaker:

because even if

Speaker:

was even if you don't if you think

Speaker:

in those terms, you

Speaker:

are bound to apply

Speaker:

more pressure.

Speaker:

And in fact, the language in

Speaker:

what we say, we don't say that.

Speaker:

We are asking them then to define

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it. We are it's

Speaker:

to to compel a transfer

Speaker:

of wealth.

Speaker:

From police, military, big business

Speaker:

into sustainable infrastructure

Speaker:

owned by the people or

Speaker:

managed by. I forget exactly, but

Speaker:

like in the hands of owned

Speaker:

and controlled by the people.

Speaker:

And so how we compel that.

Speaker:

Everything is on the table.

Speaker:

That just doesn't fit on a banner.

Speaker:

That's right. Like we

Speaker:

you may have that's a

Speaker:

mouthful, but let's break that

Speaker:

down a little bit.

Speaker:

So a transfer of wealth

Speaker:

from essentially the most

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powerful forces in our

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society.

Speaker:

Will meet a lot of resistance.

Speaker:

So. So you're saying your goal then,

Speaker:

is to build communities until they

Speaker:

are large enough to withstand

Speaker:

that resistance?

Speaker:

Damn the politicians.

Speaker:

That might be in our way at the

Speaker:

time.

Speaker:

Right?

Speaker:

Yeah. I mean, even

Speaker:

when I ask you who you're killing to

Speaker:

and you definitely made it clear,

Speaker:

like I'm not appealing to John Tory,

Speaker:

we have given up hope on that man or

Speaker:

his actions, But, you know, in the

Speaker:

end, they will only act once

Speaker:

there is a massive movement

Speaker:

underneath them.

Speaker:

Or, of course, they are swept away

Speaker:

by it, which would be even better.

Speaker:

So it's not it's not

Speaker:

a criticism. In fact, it's it's a

Speaker:

diversification of tactics.

Speaker:

Right. Like, someone can still be

Speaker:

going in to John Tory, his office

Speaker:

and trying to ask him to defund the

Speaker:

police if that's what floats

Speaker:

their boat.

Speaker:

But clearly, we

Speaker:

need enough people

Speaker:

in the movement connected

Speaker:

to one another to to make

Speaker:

it clear that that that's a demand,

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not an ask.

Speaker:

Do you find that

Speaker:

you are building?

Speaker:

How do you continue to have

Speaker:

momentum?

Speaker:

Yeah, for sure.

Speaker:

It's

Speaker:

yeah, it's so

Speaker:

I think a lot of that comes out at

Speaker:

land back square, actually, you

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know, and it's,

Speaker:

you know, both of them like.

Speaker:

You know, got got more of a solid

Speaker:

crew that comes out and then we

Speaker:

connect with other groups and then,

Speaker:

you know, being able it also meant

Speaker:

that we were able to.

Speaker:

Carry off. You know, like

Speaker:

we did peace demonstration a little

Speaker:

while ago that was sort of

Speaker:

affiliated not completely under

Speaker:

the banner of our same organization,

Speaker:

but but once you've established

Speaker:

that you are regular,

Speaker:

consistent

Speaker:

people know where to find you.

Speaker:

You end up so much more able to

Speaker:

connect to the other the other

Speaker:

organizing that's going on.

Speaker:

And I think right now, given

Speaker:

how I can sort of get back to that

Speaker:

topic, you know, it's kind of like a

Speaker:

reformer revolution kind of

Speaker:

question, you know,

Speaker:

are we asking them or are

Speaker:

we going to do it ourselves?

Speaker:

And and right now

Speaker:

we're watching

Speaker:

the neoliberal establishment

Speaker:

lose credibility on a scale that.

Speaker:

I don't think we've seen

Speaker:

certainly like like not like not

Speaker:

in my gender, not in our generation.

Speaker:

And we've actually and

Speaker:

one symptom, one really blatant

Speaker:

symptom of this is,

Speaker:

you know, rampant conspiracy

Speaker:

theories, far right movements

Speaker:

that can, you know,

Speaker:

can boldly march around, you know,

Speaker:

with near impunity.

Speaker:

Right. Like these these things

Speaker:

happen at revolutionary

Speaker:

moments, you know, based

Speaker:

on what you know, based on whatever,

Speaker:

you know, studying I've done, you

Speaker:

know, like it's it's because that

Speaker:

the system is actually so

Speaker:

has lost so much credibility

Speaker:

and the economic system

Speaker:

is just not functioning to keep most

Speaker:

people fed and content

Speaker:

and then you know are some some

Speaker:

middle class folks with a little

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bit, you know, with privilege and

Speaker:

anger and whatever, you know, we'll

Speaker:

take this far right route.

Speaker:

But but there's there's a power

Speaker:

vacuum, right?

Speaker:

And then there's a competition.

Speaker:

And I think, you know, we saw this

Speaker:

in the thirties, you know, like

Speaker:

who's going to fill that power

Speaker:

vacuum?

Speaker:

And there was a,

Speaker:

you know, similar stuff was going

Speaker:

on in Europe around the time of the

Speaker:

First World War. Right.

Speaker:

And and

Speaker:

and that and that's very much like

Speaker:

that. Competition between the right

Speaker:

and the left is very much where,

Speaker:

you know, Rosa Luxemburg's movement

Speaker:

and, you know, where,

Speaker:

you know, the Russian Revolution

Speaker:

came from and very much the peace

Speaker:

movement that, you

Speaker:

know, that that actually was very

Speaker:

successful. We don't talk about

Speaker:

World War One being an armistice

Speaker:

very often, that in fact, you

Speaker:

know, the Russian Revolution, people

Speaker:

rising up in a revolution saying,

Speaker:

no, no, we don't want

Speaker:

this war anymore, was very much a

Speaker:

part of that, stopping a UN

Speaker:

imperialist war that

Speaker:

the peace movement and a

Speaker:

movement for international socialism

Speaker:

has very much like that

Speaker:

revolutionary

Speaker:

fire to it, that that that it has

Speaker:

that source that

Speaker:

when the wars become intolerable,

Speaker:

when the situation that becomes

Speaker:

intolerable

Speaker:

and.

Speaker:

You know, and it's a moment of

Speaker:

crisis that's very often where

Speaker:

people decide that they're

Speaker:

absolutely has to be a drastic

Speaker:

change.

Speaker:

And and so I see that when we

Speaker:

talk about, you know, whether we're

Speaker:

lobbying someone else or just

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actually saying, well, what if what

Speaker:

if we did it? Like, if you organize

Speaker:

always, like, you know,

Speaker:

someone said this to me once and I

Speaker:

never forgot it, that like,

Speaker:

you know, a revolution doesn't just

Speaker:

happen because you organize and

Speaker:

overthrow the establishment.

Speaker:

It also happens when the

Speaker:

establishment is weak because part

Speaker:

of what's going on is that there's

Speaker:

kind of a collapse of the

Speaker:

establishment. It stops working so

Speaker:

well, you know, like, you know, Czar

Speaker:

Nicholas doesn't doesn't have

Speaker:

his shit together and it's all

Speaker:

chaos. And so whoever is the most

Speaker:

organized basically

Speaker:

becomes the power.

Speaker:

And so always,

Speaker:

always to organize so that you

Speaker:

are you are the most organized group

Speaker:

around so that when stuff stops

Speaker:

working, you're the one who

Speaker:

fills in the power vacuum.

Speaker:

That can be an event that can be a

Speaker:

sudden change or it can be gradual.

Speaker:

Whoever is the most organized.

Speaker:

See, that's.

Speaker:

The tom politically.

Speaker:

That terrifies me at the moment.

Speaker:

Because although, you know.

Speaker:

Love what you're doing, but you have

Speaker:

to admit there is a huge vacuum

Speaker:

on the left in terms of white

Speaker:

leadership or

Speaker:

consolidation.

Speaker:

And the right

Speaker:

demonstrated by the, you know, most

Speaker:

recently the occupations of Ottawa,

Speaker:

like we've not

Speaker:

even Occupy Toronto, didn't occupy

Speaker:

that kind of space.

Speaker:

Well, that's good. It's okay, you

Speaker:

know.

Speaker:

But it's like it's like

Speaker:

misogynistic, you know, like,

Speaker:

actually, women are usually quite

Speaker:

much more brave.

Speaker:

But do you know what I mean?

Speaker:

Like that.

Speaker:

I hate to give it any kind of

Speaker:

credit, but like that is a huge

Speaker:

success on an organizing scale,

Speaker:

especially during a pandemic when

Speaker:

people are poor, struggling,

Speaker:

mostly wanting to stay inside,

Speaker:

and they were able to not

Speaker:

just occupy Ottawa,

Speaker:

but have all of these solidarity

Speaker:

actions that are still continuing

Speaker:

today.

Speaker:

So.

Speaker:

So yeah, that's why you see me

Speaker:

making those faces is that's me

Speaker:

cringing when you say, you know,

Speaker:

in this absence of power, who

Speaker:

will take over?

Speaker:

And I think if we were to flip that

Speaker:

coin right now today, that would not

Speaker:

be the left.

Speaker:

That would not be us.

Speaker:

So how do we

Speaker:

take our Thursday

Speaker:

action along with all the other work

Speaker:

that your comrades are doing across

Speaker:

Turtle Island and beyond,

Speaker:

and get to that point.

Speaker:

You know.

Speaker:

You know, what are we

Speaker:

what are we missing?

Speaker:

What work needs to be done?

Speaker:

So, you know, I told you

Speaker:

earlier I'd ask you if there were a

Speaker:

thousand annas.

Speaker:

You know, what would they be doing

Speaker:

right now?

Speaker:

Would you be in a thousand different

Speaker:

police headquarters or.

Speaker:

Be disrupting more?

Speaker:

Oh, you know what, Joseph?

Speaker:

I was thinking about this with some

Speaker:

of my my friends,

Speaker:

because sometimes you gotta just

Speaker:

take a step back and not us and

Speaker:

not ask yourself what you're willing

Speaker:

to do, but what needs to be done.

Speaker:

And, and one thing that I've

Speaker:

realized and that I've learned from

Speaker:

the people who I organized with is

Speaker:

that you really

Speaker:

need to always be disrupting.

Speaker:

And and, and I didn't that's

Speaker:

not necessarily what I wanted to

Speaker:

hear because sometimes

Speaker:

I don't want to I, I want to get

Speaker:

arrested.

Speaker:

Yeah. It's not the easy out,

Speaker:

you know?

Speaker:

But here I am with other friends who

Speaker:

clearly don't who are just going to

Speaker:

be there regardless.

Speaker:

I'm like, okay, well, I got a ton

Speaker:

of privilege, you know,

Speaker:

like, you know, hear my friends who

Speaker:

don't have that much trouble,

Speaker:

they're not scared.

Speaker:

Okay. All right.

Speaker:

So then I realize actually

Speaker:

disrupting like when you can't when

Speaker:

you don't know the numbers, but you

Speaker:

just constantly disrupt

Speaker:

you, you get first of all,

Speaker:

you get more attention, you draw

Speaker:

more people, you

Speaker:

build your own courage and you make

Speaker:

things difficult for the opposition.

Speaker:

And you manage to

Speaker:

you you pack a harder punch.

Speaker:

And it's a way of of of

Speaker:

accomplishing more.

Speaker:

And so I you know, I was thinking

Speaker:

too much. I was you know, we were

Speaker:

talking I said, really what we need

Speaker:

to do, we need to start occupying

Speaker:

some of these vacant apartments.

Speaker:

And we got a massive homeless crisis

Speaker:

here in Toronto.

Speaker:

You know, it's appalling.

Speaker:

You know, people can't afford to

Speaker:

live in their own city.

Speaker:

And, you know, tons of people

Speaker:

are on the street, you know, And,

Speaker:

you know, I know lots of people

Speaker:

who've been on and off homeless and

Speaker:

and so thinking about

Speaker:

like I think the answer is that you

Speaker:

keep disrupting.

Speaker:

I think they're and, you

Speaker:

know. BLOCK You know, whatever makes

Speaker:

whatever makes the establish

Speaker:

whatever throws a wrench into

Speaker:

things. And I I'm not the expert

Speaker:

on that. Like, in truth, this is

Speaker:

where I'm learning from my comrades.

Speaker:

This is where I'm learning from my

Speaker:

friends, because I wouldn't

Speaker:

have blocked the young

Speaker:

street at Dundas, a

Speaker:

young and Dundas.

Speaker:

I didn't have that much guts.

Speaker:

My friends had that much guts

Speaker:

who stood with them.

Speaker:

And I'm very glad for that.

Speaker:

So I'm following their lead

Speaker:

right now.

Speaker:

But I do believe that there has to

Speaker:

always, always have to be.

Speaker:

Getting, you know, when you don't

Speaker:

have the numbers and you need to

Speaker:

increase the visibility and

Speaker:

there's like a balance because you

Speaker:

don't alienate yourself from most

Speaker:

people. It has to your

Speaker:

actions have to be clearly

Speaker:

justified.

Speaker:

And when the law

Speaker:

is as.

Speaker:

Meaning like I really like it when

Speaker:

the law is as arbitrary as I see it

Speaker:

being right now. Like a good friend

Speaker:

of mine was just a number of people

Speaker:

who I know. One particular good

Speaker:

friend, Richard, was just

Speaker:

like taken right off the street,

Speaker:

followed by plainclothes officers

Speaker:

after a press conference about

Speaker:

an encampment clearing

Speaker:

and just like thrown into

Speaker:

a van and, you know, to police van

Speaker:

and for some stupid

Speaker:

thing, they that he threw

Speaker:

a water bottle way,

Speaker:

way, way back during the Lamport

Speaker:

Stadium.

Speaker:

You know, they don't even have like

Speaker:

there's no evidence of it.

Speaker:

And so

Speaker:

when it's that arbitrary, I

Speaker:

just I think that there's a lot to

Speaker:

be said for. Just say, okay, well

Speaker:

they'll they'll make the law whatever

Speaker:

they want.

Speaker:

So let's just decide what is

Speaker:

justified, what makes sense, what

Speaker:

will be recognized as reasonable

Speaker:

to most people, to most

Speaker:

well, thinking people,

Speaker:

well-intentioned people,

Speaker:

and just follow that

Speaker:

and disrupt and continue to organize

Speaker:

and continue to disrupt.

Speaker:

And yeah,

Speaker:

and that that means traffic.

Speaker:

It means occupations.

Speaker:

Yeah, I think maybe that's.

Speaker:

Where it means courage.

Speaker:

That you kind of.

Speaker:

Talk about limitations.

Speaker:

You don't call them that, but

Speaker:

needing to make sure that, you know,

Speaker:

you don't push the boundaries so far

Speaker:

as you alienate

Speaker:

the same people that you are trying

Speaker:

to draw to the movement.

Speaker:

And I think that's perhaps where

Speaker:

the right went wrong.

Speaker:

You know.

Speaker:

Putting up a hot tub, you know,

Speaker:

and defacing

Speaker:

people for having rainbow flags, you

Speaker:

know, the the the dog shit

Speaker:

thrown at people and,

Speaker:

you know, they just.

Speaker:

They took disruption to a whole new

Speaker:

level and it then

Speaker:

became essentially meaningless.

Speaker:

It just became this act of rage.

Speaker:

The messaging got lost.

Speaker:

And thankfully,

Speaker:

you know, some people.

Speaker:

Distance themselves from

Speaker:

them. But at the same time,

Speaker:

you know, you want to keep pushing

Speaker:

those boundaries, too, right?

Speaker:

So how do you find that

Speaker:

balance between,

Speaker:

you know, making sure you're

Speaker:

palatable but also disruptive enough

Speaker:

that it matters?

Speaker:

Right. So because

Speaker:

that in political organizing, that

Speaker:

that's what I find so frustrating,

Speaker:

too, is often policies

Speaker:

or actions have to be passed

Speaker:

through so many people.

Speaker:

And, you know, will this

Speaker:

this group of voters won't like

Speaker:

that. So why bother, even though,

Speaker:

you know, it's the right thing to do

Speaker:

and I hate that

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like that is just so limiting.

Speaker:

So that's why

Speaker:

people love, you

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know, because you don't you know,

Speaker:

and people do like,

Speaker:

you know, people are smarter

Speaker:

in their heart than they are in

Speaker:

their head, you know, like I

Speaker:

so, yeah, it's a feels like the

Speaker:

safest thing to say.

Speaker:

But inside I like I like what she's

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doing, you know, And

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on a deep level I guess keep

Speaker:

going keep going, you know and,

Speaker:

and it inspires people

Speaker:

and you know, like and that's

Speaker:

what leading is about.

Speaker:

It's not the same thing as chasing

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votes or being a political

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weathervane.

Speaker:

And you're not that you know.

Speaker:

And and it's and

Speaker:

that's what's memorable and that's

Speaker:

what people are going to remember.

Speaker:

You know, like these people who just

Speaker:

care about getting reelected, those

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going to friggin remember them.

Speaker:

And 15, 20, no one cares.

Speaker:

No. And they're so ineffective to

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remember.

Speaker:

You know?

Speaker:

Yeah. No change.

Speaker:

No. And, you know, sometimes I ask

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interviews in interviews, you know,

Speaker:

what's one policy that

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would make you stop doing what

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you're doing?

Speaker:

You know, like if there's specific

Speaker:

funding, sometimes public education,

Speaker:

whatnot.

Speaker:

But, you know, when you're coming

Speaker:

from an anti capitalist smash

Speaker:

the system, it's, you know,

Speaker:

the work is never done,

Speaker:

right. So.

Speaker:

Yeah. Settling for middle of the

Speaker:

road, you know, actions or policies

Speaker:

is kind of.

Speaker:

I think we're just so beyond that.

Speaker:

Right. It's like that's.

Speaker:

I mean, there's. There's a time and

Speaker:

a place for everything.

Speaker:

There's the easy in, right?

Speaker:

You want to draw people into the

Speaker:

easy thing. That's not so.

Speaker:

You know, people who don't want to

Speaker:

get arrested, right?

Speaker:

Let them kind of stand in the

Speaker:

background, get more brave.

Speaker:

Understand the need for disruption

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and its effectiveness.

Speaker:

So I really do appreciate

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the time you spent here today

Speaker:

driving that point home that the

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need for disruption, because

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that's, you know, part of what we're

Speaker:

doing here with this podcast is.

Speaker:

You know, it's a bit of

Speaker:

disillusionment with

Speaker:

the electoral system and the

Speaker:

amount of energy that really good

Speaker:

people are spending inside

Speaker:

those toxic spaces.

Speaker:

So.

Speaker:

Hopefully we. They are toxic.

Speaker:

They are.

Speaker:

Oh, firsthand knowledge.

Speaker:

Know it. I've seen so many friends

Speaker:

damaged through it, but I have

Speaker:

never really seen that kind of

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toxicity in any kind of organizing

Speaker:

circles I've been in.

Speaker:

There's always problem characters.

Speaker:

You always have the same issues of

Speaker:

perhaps being infiltrated by

Speaker:

centrists or,

Speaker:

you know, just personal issues that

Speaker:

might erupt. But it's never to that

Speaker:

level of,

Speaker:

you know, repression that

Speaker:

you can feel inside.

Speaker:

So. Like hearing you describe.

Speaker:

Spoken word.

Speaker:

And, you know, even just picturing

Speaker:

two folks holding the banner in the

Speaker:

rain is like, so heartwarming

Speaker:

to me because I've been there.

Speaker:

You know, when you have no idea

Speaker:

who's going to show up, you just

Speaker:

know you and a friend are hopefully.

Speaker:

And so,

Speaker:

I mean, I.

Speaker:

Think we did that with the KKK

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convoy Go Home banner like

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that. We had like a few.

Speaker:

But, you know, people appreciated it

Speaker:

as just this little bit of

Speaker:

disruption. It was friggin

Speaker:

something, you know.

Speaker:

I at a time when we needed that

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to, you know, we needed to see some

Speaker:

of our comrades instead of watching

Speaker:

the convoy, We needed to see

Speaker:

a little fight back there.

Speaker:

So I you know, I wish I was in the

Speaker:

city and like, I'm up here on set

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and I'm I'm a city girl.

Speaker:

I grew up in. SCARBOROUGH So when

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you say mouthy, oh,

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I'm in.

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I love my town.

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If anyone's listening,

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I'm in Suttons.

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So just I thought

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you were out East now,

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you new area.

Speaker:

Yeah, I thought you were down east.

Speaker:

Now.

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Now, I'm an Ontario girl.

Speaker:

I'm just an hour out of the city,

Speaker:

so, like, there's.

Speaker:

You know, up in Aurora, Thorncliffe

Speaker:

Park, and then. And then Aurora.

Speaker:

Yes, I'm in Georgia.

Speaker:

But yeah, I know where that is.

Speaker:

Sutton Yeah.

Speaker:

So I like I

Speaker:

wish I was in the city because the

Speaker:

thought of that being so accessible,

Speaker:

you know, even your banner drop, I

Speaker:

was like I say to my my partner

Speaker:

all the time, like, we have to move

Speaker:

back into the city. Can't afford it,

Speaker:

right? I'm just like the amount

Speaker:

of networking and

Speaker:

connections that what you

Speaker:

said, you know, if you just know

Speaker:

that there's a bad day and there's

Speaker:

going to be some fighting comrades

Speaker:

there on a Thursday and you can show

Speaker:

up and just be a part

Speaker:

of it if nothing else.

Speaker:

You know, there was a time where we

Speaker:

all went out and hit the pots and

Speaker:

pans at some not during COVID,

Speaker:

I mean, during the Maple Spring.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

Right.

Speaker:

Where the Quebec students were doing

Speaker:

it. And yeah, we set it up

Speaker:

every in a park.

Speaker:

I can't remember which park.

Speaker:

I think we were in Moss Park every

Speaker:

week. And some of the neighbors

Speaker:

came out and yeah, I have first

Speaker:

time. It's two people than four

Speaker:

people, then more people.

Speaker:

And then it started to dwindle,

Speaker:

right? Because we needed to add

Speaker:

something to it. We didn't.

Speaker:

And so it died.

Speaker:

But

Speaker:

it's I love that you're just so

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consistent and so determined.

Speaker:

And, you know, when I say, like,

Speaker:

what's your end goal?

Speaker:

And you're like, Yeah, we're not

Speaker:

even close to there. So this is what

Speaker:

I'm doing for the next foreseeable

Speaker:

future and goal.

Speaker:

And I want and I actually really

Speaker:

want to state it because the

Speaker:

disruption is important.

Speaker:

It's also important to build an

Speaker:

organization that work

Speaker:

that has enough integrity,

Speaker:

moral integrity and structural

Speaker:

integrity that you're confident that

Speaker:

actually that actually, yeah,

Speaker:

we could if we could build a world

Speaker:

like this, that this could be the

Speaker:

world, this is something

Speaker:

that that I could live in, that I

Speaker:

would want my children to live in.

Speaker:

Like this is, you know,

Speaker:

because because building something

Speaker:

better is what fascism doesn't

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do.

Speaker:

It's it it will use

Speaker:

rhetoric and blame and appeal to the

Speaker:

working class frustration,

Speaker:

get funded by big capital

Speaker:

and but never

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propose a program to

Speaker:

correct the problem and

Speaker:

so disrupting

Speaker:

while at disrupting the

Speaker:

establishment while at the same time

Speaker:

building something building an

Speaker:

organization that you really are

Speaker:

that that you feel at home in that

Speaker:

makes other people feel at home,

Speaker:

that has processes for

Speaker:

for reconciliation within it, that

Speaker:

has equity based processes that that

Speaker:

that shares resources, where

Speaker:

that has real integrity, then

Speaker:

you're doing something more lasting

Speaker:

than what those assholes were doing,

Speaker:

you know, you know,

Speaker:

with that with, you know, in Ottawa

Speaker:

like that and people do see

Speaker:

and it has staying power and, and

Speaker:

there's always that the prospect of

Speaker:

you know

Speaker:

what what

Speaker:

what's the

Speaker:

long term resistance.

Speaker:

Right. Like you know like a lot of

Speaker:

movements have sustained the war

Speaker:

for many many years.

Speaker:

Right. With kind of

Speaker:

protracted Thank you for calling up

Speaker:

the word I was looking for.

Speaker:

Yes.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah. Were you at.

Speaker:

Today, Ana?

Speaker:

I wish I was.

Speaker:

Because I feel like I know.

Speaker:

I, I walked around it.

Speaker:

I was in my first few years of

Speaker:

teaching, you know, I was

Speaker:

I had my nose in the books I was

Speaker:

teaching at that point and didn't

Speaker:

really get out very much.

Speaker:

I was there because.

Speaker:

It's, you know, it's what you just.

Speaker:

I've been the way that, you know,

Speaker:

obviously it had its issues, but the

Speaker:

attempt was there to demonstrate

Speaker:

an alternative way to live,

Speaker:

an alternative way to make

Speaker:

communities and to lean on each

Speaker:

other and to celebrate each

Speaker:

other and educate each other

Speaker:

and.

Speaker:

That's what it was.

Speaker:

It had other things, but it had the

Speaker:

same critique that you sometimes

Speaker:

might face where the

Speaker:

goals were so broad

Speaker:

because the vision was just so

Speaker:

transformative.

Speaker:

It wasn't a single policy we wanted.

Speaker:

We needed something you've never

Speaker:

seen before people.

Speaker:

So we may have different ideas on

Speaker:

what that looks like right now, but

Speaker:

we know how we're going to get

Speaker:

there. And

Speaker:

so the vision wasn't super clear

Speaker:

at the end, but what it

Speaker:

looked like in the now was like

Speaker:

that was clear.

Speaker:

We just wanted a bigger, you know,

Speaker:

if we could just make this park to

Speaker:

the next park to the next part, to

Speaker:

the bigger community, If we

Speaker:

could operate Turtle Island in this

Speaker:

fashion, we would start

Speaker:

to understand how to undo what we've

Speaker:

done. And so

Speaker:

I totally appreciate that as a as

Speaker:

an end goal. And you're right,

Speaker:

that's something fascism certainly

Speaker:

doesn't do. The right does not do

Speaker:

what I saw them kind of replicate

Speaker:

instead of like this loving

Speaker:

community was a more

Speaker:

militaristic replication

Speaker:

on auto, right.

Speaker:

They had the terminology they

Speaker:

were using amongst themselves.

Speaker:

The tactics they were using were

Speaker:

very combative.

Speaker:

It didn't seem like that's really

Speaker:

if you use them as your vision of

Speaker:

what you wanted it to be and

Speaker:

compared, you know, the park and

Speaker:

occupy or your

Speaker:

square, not your square and

Speaker:

land back square to

Speaker:

that.

Speaker:

And it's wondering why

Speaker:

people would be drawn to that vision

Speaker:

versus the one that,

Speaker:

you know, you've demonstrated,

Speaker:

you know, So

Speaker:

I would love to be able to amplify

Speaker:

what you're doing.

Speaker:

So what

Speaker:

can you do?

Speaker:

Where is your police headquarters?

Speaker:

And Sutton.

Speaker:

It's just we've got a York region

Speaker:

police just down the street

Speaker:

off a baseline.

Speaker:

I mean, I'm in a community where

Speaker:

people still fly Confederate

Speaker:

flags and

Speaker:

think it's it's

Speaker:

not great in that

Speaker:

terms, but that just means there's

Speaker:

definitely lots of work to do.

Speaker:

But I mean, how can people

Speaker:

listening now help you specifically?

Speaker:

Let's just remind people where

Speaker:

a few of these items are.

Speaker:

So you are every Thursday.

Speaker:

Where? Yeah.

Speaker:

40 college.

Speaker:

And that is right near bay

Speaker:

and

Speaker:

in college. And it's the Metro

Speaker:

Toronto Police headquarters.

Speaker:

And every Thursday at 5:00.

Speaker:

And sometimes we'll get like a high

Speaker:

five to people to remind

Speaker:

folks five.

Speaker:

See you at five

Speaker:

and right in front of the police

Speaker:

headquarters. And

Speaker:

there's music and

Speaker:

there's food.

Speaker:

If you want to bring a little bit,

Speaker:

that's great.

Speaker:

And and the weather's getting

Speaker:

nice. And so we're going to be there

Speaker:

and and very

Speaker:

often on Sunday,

Speaker:

probably more consistently coming up

Speaker:

at at Young

Speaker:

in Dundas at

Speaker:

4:00 on Sundays.

Speaker:

Yeah. And you know, so that that's

Speaker:

where we are.

Speaker:

That's where we can be found on.

Speaker:

You know, so we can be found in

Speaker:

Toronto.

Speaker:

And I, it still makes you think

Speaker:

back. So you know where to find.

Speaker:

And, you know, I

Speaker:

imagine it's all I hopefully it's

Speaker:

all comrades listening.

Speaker:

I'm sure the police know just where

Speaker:

to find you at any given time,

Speaker:

anyway.

Speaker:

Yeah, we get sabbaticals

Speaker:

now. We do.

Speaker:

There's, you know, you get people

Speaker:

you don't want sometimes, no doubt.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And what do you do then?

Speaker:

So, you know, reading up on.

Speaker:

I don't think I can repeat what I.

Speaker:

Well, there's this one time someone

Speaker:

joined our group who.

Speaker:

Who actually used to be a member of

Speaker:

the far right, and that made, like,

Speaker:

real life. I just said, you know,

Speaker:

like, I went through this thing, and

Speaker:

I've left, and I've, like, publicly

Speaker:

disavowed everything.

Speaker:

And I, you know, and I, like now do

Speaker:

this work to denounce and, you know,

Speaker:

and I and somehow someone

Speaker:

came to harass

Speaker:

him. I forget exactly what it was

Speaker:

and.

Speaker:

They were just kind of like stood

Speaker:

there and just, you know, be

Speaker:

physically present and, you know,

Speaker:

sorry, no, you know, please take

Speaker:

your camera elsewhere, you know.

Speaker:

But always trying to always stay

Speaker:

calm, you know, be the calmest

Speaker:

person there.

Speaker:

So I

Speaker:

police it's really strange

Speaker:

to me when the police start to come

Speaker:

out. Like what? Like.

Speaker:

And to me, it's such an image of

Speaker:

of the over funding.

Speaker:

You've got so much time and you're

Speaker:

like really growing amounts

Speaker:

of time on your hands.

Speaker:

Don't tell me this is a difficult

Speaker:

job.

Speaker:

You know, people work in the public

Speaker:

sector.

Speaker:

The actual public service sector

Speaker:

know what it means to work hard

Speaker:

because they don't have enough

Speaker:

people to do the work they have.

Speaker:

You have too many people.

Speaker:

You don't know what to do with

Speaker:

yourselves.

Speaker:

You're standing here watching us,

Speaker:

you know, and.

Speaker:

Yeah, I.

Speaker:

What have we done? We've had.

Speaker:

You know, I don't think we've had a

Speaker:

whole lot of trouble with with

Speaker:

far right people showing up,

Speaker:

actually.

Speaker:

I'd have to.

Speaker:

But I think that whenever the

Speaker:

whatever the police, whatever it

Speaker:

looks like, things could get tricky

Speaker:

start recording

Speaker:

and and yeah you know when

Speaker:

we were we we did a walk to

Speaker:

Queen's Park and like

Speaker:

from our spot.

Speaker:

Connected it to other events.

Speaker:

It's always like a peace that you

Speaker:

can connect to other parts

Speaker:

to lay some shoes down by the Johnny

Speaker:

MacDonald statue and,

Speaker:

and it was very clear that, you

Speaker:

know, there were police there around

Speaker:

us, you know, like we're not like

Speaker:

these.

Speaker:

I guess the security officers and

Speaker:

also some police

Speaker:

just wouldn't go away.

Speaker:

And they've kind of come up from

Speaker:

behind. A very sneaky

Speaker:

like that. I think that there's any

Speaker:

quality that I would attribute to

Speaker:

the more than anything.

Speaker:

It's it's certainly not courage.

Speaker:

It's making us very

Speaker:

stealth like cats.

Speaker:

Yeah, I'm like, Oh.

Speaker:

But the bikes don't make any noise,

Speaker:

right?

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

No, I know.

Speaker:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker:

I try to think what else I was going

Speaker:

to say. Oh, don't worry.

Speaker:

We won't give too much air to what

Speaker:

you know the right does

Speaker:

to, to drive us nuts.

Speaker:

But let

Speaker:

me just take a look.

Speaker:

If there. Is there anything I didn't

Speaker:

ask you that I should have asked.

Speaker:

Yeah, No, no, I.

Speaker:

I know.

Speaker:

It's. It's really great to finally

Speaker:

meet you. Just, um.

Speaker:

I know.

Speaker:

Like, post.

Speaker:

I think reading your stuff, you

Speaker:

know.

Speaker:

Like you, we are.

Speaker:

We find each other on Facebook,

Speaker:

and, you know, we've never connected

Speaker:

like this, but I got to find

Speaker:

out everything I kind of wanted from

Speaker:

you because it was really

Speaker:

just about picking your brain about

Speaker:

why you do what you do.

Speaker:

I, I appreciate that you do

Speaker:

what you do.

Speaker:

And I'm definitely going to make an

Speaker:

effort to be down there one

Speaker:

Thursday.

Speaker:

I'm actually in the city.

Speaker:

Soon.

Speaker:

So I will connect with you

Speaker:

before I come down.

Speaker:

Okay. Sounds good.

Speaker:

Like in all things that we do, there

Speaker:

is a team behind blueprints of

Speaker:

destruction.

Speaker:

I want to give a big thank you to

Speaker:

our producers, Santiago.

Speaker:

Hello. Quintero and

Speaker:

Jay Woodruff.

Speaker:

Our show is also made possible by

Speaker:

the support of our listeners.

Speaker:

So if you appreciate our content

Speaker:

and would like to become a patriot,

Speaker:

please visit us at.

Speaker:

W w. W dot patron

Speaker:

backslash BP of disruption.

Speaker:

So if you know of any work that

Speaker:

should be amplified or want

Speaker:

to provide feedback of our show,

Speaker:

please reach out to us on Twitter at

Speaker:

BP of Disruption.

Speaker:

Blueprints of Disruption is a

Speaker:

project of new left media, an

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About the Podcast

Blueprints of Disruption
Blueprints of Disruption is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, organizers and rabble rousers. This weekly podcast, hosted by Jessa McLean and Santiago Helou Quintero, features in-depth discussions that explore different ways to challenge capitalism, decolonize spaces and create movements on the ground. Together we will disrupt the status quo one Thursday at a time.

About your hosts

Jessa McLean

Profile picture for Jessa McLean
Host, Jessa McLean is a socialist political and community organizer from Ontario.

Santiago Helou Quintero

Profile picture for Santiago Helou Quintero
Producer