Disrupting Politics with Dimitri Lascaris
Lawyer, journalist and advocate, Dimitri Lascaris joins hosts Jessa McLean and Santiago Helou to talk about holding Canadian politicians accountable for their role in the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. He and his comrades have been disrupting fundraisers, asking hard questions at press conference, interrupting other political functions to get attention on the issue of Gaza.
We ask him why they employ these tactics, if it makes them nervous, and what they hope to achieve by posting up the videos of these interactions.
The episode starts with Dimitri recalling a recent interaction with MP Marc Miller, who asks him "What can Canada do?". We breakdown the response to that often heard question.
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Transcript
Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints
Speaker:of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining
Speaker:power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,
Speaker:we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle
Speaker:capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know
Speaker:we need. I let guests introduce themselves, but as soon as they got into the studio, we
Speaker:just started talking. So I hit record. Dimitri Lascaris is back talking about disrupting business
Speaker:as usual for politicians complicit in genocide. Dimitri is a lawyer, a journalist, a staple
Speaker:in Canadian politics, and as you'll hear, he's also quite the shit-disturber. If you know
Speaker:us at all, you'll know we absolutely mean that as a compliment. This is the second time he's
Speaker:been on our show, so be sure to go back and listen to Wasted Energy. That's where Dimitri
Speaker:talks about his experience inside the Green Party and his general take on partisan politics
Speaker:in Canada. It's not that far different from mine. You'll likely have also seen footage
Speaker:of Dimitri and other disruptors confronting federal politicians. primarily the ruling liberals
Speaker:for their roles in Israel's war crimes. They are meeting these people head on and upsetting
Speaker:their agendas to put focus where it should be on a matter that can't wait, that has no room
Speaker:left for niceties. We ask him how he manages to track these folks down all the time, if
Speaker:he gets nervous, disrupting events and why he uses this method as a means to get Canada to
Speaker:act. At one point, he'll encourage you to do the same wherever you are. And we second these
Speaker:calls. At no point should any politician feel comfortable throwing fundraisers as they send
Speaker:warships to ensure the flow of weapons continue from our shores to Israel. Demetria can't be
Speaker:everywhere. The Palestinian youth movement cannot be everywhere. not without your help. The interview
Speaker:starts here by diving right into Dmitri telling us the story of his latest face-to-face with
Speaker:a Liberal MP. So sit back, listen in, and get fired up to be disruptive. Yes, so this morning
Speaker:Minister Mark Miller, whose portfolio includes refugees, gave a press conference about an
Speaker:infrastructure project in a writing. It's either my writing in Montreal or right next to it.
Speaker:And I learned about this through Eve. And I went there fully expecting to encounter the
Speaker:typical scenario we now encounter, which is that there were going to be RCMP officers at
Speaker:the entrance to the building. Whether or not I'd actually met them before, they would immediately
Speaker:recognize me and Eve, and they would try to stop us from entering the building. Even though
Speaker:Eve and I have never done anything. allegedly or actually criminal or peaceful protesters.
Speaker:And frankly, the questions we ask are the kinds of questions that any conscientious journalist
Speaker:would ask. Right. And, you know, unfortunately, the mainstream media does not have a lot of
Speaker:conscientious journalists, but we showed up there today and it's these disruptions. You
Speaker:never you never know what you're going to find. Right. So we showed up this morning and there
Speaker:were there was nobody at the door, nobody at the entrance to the building. Like, we want
Speaker:nothing. and we walked into the room where it was being held, which is kind of like a classroom,
Speaker:and Miller hadn't shown up yet, and there were chairs there, and we sat down. So we were basically
Speaker:three meters away from the minister. Me, Eve, and two other activists came, two other disruptors.
Speaker:So there were four of us in a crowd of around, I don't know, 20 people, and... We allowed
Speaker:him to make his presentation and there were others who spoke about this infrastructural
Speaker:project and then we got to the Q&A. And, you know, he went first and each of us had a good
Speaker:several minutes going back and forth with him. And that's very rare. Usually what happens
Speaker:if you get a question off at all, within 30 seconds, some brutes in suits have their hands
Speaker:all over you and they're dragging you out. And here, no one dragged us out. No one even attempted
Speaker:to drag us out. So it was really quite telling. And the reason why I started recounting this
Speaker:to you, just because you asked me, you know, what can Canada do? And that was exactly what
Speaker:he asked me. And so I started rhyming. He asked me that question. Well, it's a talking point,
Speaker:right? Like it's something they're pushing this kind of. Yeah. We've got no role to play here.
Speaker:And so I listed a bunch of things he could do. And then I said to him, you know, we'll be
Speaker:posting the video about this later. I said to him, you're doing none of those things. What
Speaker:did you do in the case of Ukraine? You imposed sanctions, you sent weapons to the Ukrainians,
Speaker:you voted for resolutions at the UN condemning what Russia did, you know, you urged the Russian
Speaker:people to overthrow their president. In this case, you're on the side of the oppressor.
Speaker:You are doing everything imaginable to support the brutal oppression of the Palestinian people.
Speaker:And how do you account for this grotesque disparity in treatment of these two human rights violators?
Speaker:And he refused to answer my question. He literally, we went back and forth and he actually just
Speaker:walked away from the mic, refusing to answer my question. Amazing. They're just not prepared
Speaker:to answer these questions because there's no answer. There's no defending it. There's, I
Speaker:find it funny though, that he posed that question to you thinking that you wouldn't have. pocket
Speaker:answer for that. Like you've not already been asked that question a million times over. Like
Speaker:you've not been screaming from the top of your lungs already what the things that they can
Speaker:do are. But he's just so ill prepared to handle this, that that's all he could think of. I
Speaker:think it speaks in a certain way to, as you were saying, Demetri, about conscientious journalists
Speaker:and mainstream media, to the lack of challenge they receive typically in their interactions.
Speaker:The media leaves them. unprepared for these kinds of situations because they're just not
Speaker:used to having any kind of scrutiny whatsoever. That's exactly what it is. It's exactly what
Speaker:it is. These people are like fish out of water when they get a real question. You know, these
Speaker:softballs that they constantly, you know, they go on Power and Politics and the at-issue panel
Speaker:and they're on CTV and they're just getting one softball after the other and they get a
Speaker:tough question. They fold up like a cheap suit. Meanwhile, we're grilled online constantly,
Speaker:right? So we've got the answer to everything, or at least we think we do. But yeah, I look
Speaker:forward to watching the video on that because you're right, we normally do get to see all
Speaker:of these, thankfully they're videotaped and they usually do end up with a very certain
Speaker:viewpoint. It's, I feel like Eve's needs a t-shirt that says, don't touch me or get your hands
Speaker:off me, because that's how the video typically ends. Get your hands off me. Shame on you,
Speaker:Minister Jolie, you know? And yeah. And they don't have the right to touch us. Like people
Speaker:should understand that, right? If you're just standing there and you're not posing a threat
Speaker:to anybody and you haven't been asked to leave and refused to leave, even then, like only
Speaker:an officer of the peace can physically remove you from the premises if you're not posing
Speaker:a threat to anybody. These people don't care. Like literally the moment you ask a question,
Speaker:their hands, their grubby paws are all over you and they're dragging you up. The fact you're
Speaker:a card carrying member of you know, the Freelance Union in Canada means nothing to them Are you
Speaker:wearing a press pass when you do this most the time? Usually I don't because if they see my
Speaker:name, they won't let me in Because I think that's a question a lot of people are watching like
Speaker:how one I wish he was here like when he jumps on me We'll ask him as well. But like how do
Speaker:you find them? you know, because we all kind of want to know where they are. We've seen
Speaker:them be disrupted at restaurants and stuff like that. So on one offs, people are finding them.
Speaker:But you folks seem to be consistently at every time they pop their head out of their office
Speaker:like it's like whack a mole. And they can't go anywhere in Ottawa without running into
Speaker:one of you two. Like, how do you find them? Well, I don't want to get specific about that.
Speaker:Yeah, because if I do, they'll just negate whatever, you know, information we're getting. But I
Speaker:will say this, the fact that we've become known as disruptors of senior federal politicians
Speaker:and others has caused people to volunteer information to us all the time. Sometimes people we don't
Speaker:know, and you'll get an email, a text, and they'll say, hey man, I just found out so-and-so is
Speaker:gonna be speaking here, you may wanna know about this. So you never know where the information's
Speaker:gonna come from, but it is true that... You know, if I announce in advance going into,
Speaker:because, you know, we've got a certain degree of notoriety now with the security details
Speaker:for these ministers, and especially the prime minister, if we announce in advance what our
Speaker:names are, very little prospect will get anywhere close to the minister, and we'll never get
Speaker:to ask her questions. So we have to be as discreet as possible. Because that's like two different
Speaker:routes you could take. Some people are like, as many people as possible, come outside of
Speaker:this restaurant, this event, you know, make some noise. you two are preferring the more
Speaker:stealth mode, but I still find it surprising that the amount of times you've done this,
Speaker:you know, your picture's not plastered on every staffer's clipboard before they throw an event.
Speaker:It's like the usual suspects to watch out for. I mean, getting a seat at the Q&A with Mark
Speaker:Miller is... Did that catch you off guard? Because you're always prepared to just basically yell
Speaker:some one-liners and get what you can get out there before they drag you out. I really didn't
Speaker:think I was going to get that much time with him. Like I grilled him for a good three or
Speaker:four minutes. I wish I could get opportunities like that on a regular basis because it not
Speaker:because of, you know, it gives me some perverse delight to embarrass these people, but because
Speaker:it really exposes the complete lack of any moral or intellectual foundation to the government's
Speaker:policies. If you can grill these people and all they do is avoid questions and repeat gibberish.
Speaker:then people finally understand, you know what, there's no principle behind this at all. Nothing.
Speaker:They have nothing to say in defense of their behavior. So that's the whole point of this
Speaker:exercise. And as I say, if the journalists, the so-called journalists in the mainstream
Speaker:media were doing it, we wouldn't have to do it. I got better things to do with my time
Speaker:than chase down Mark Miller, you know? If you were to reach out to them as, you know, a freelance
Speaker:journalist, like have you tried getting responses that way? I'm guessing... how that would go.
Speaker:But I'm wondering what kind of responses maybe you've gotten in the past if you've tried to
Speaker:actually give them a heads up. Ignored, completely ignored. And in fact, on a number of occasions,
Speaker:so now one thing that they often do is they'll say there's going to be a presser at such and
Speaker:such a, well, they might not give you, they don't give you the precise location, typically.
Speaker:Now the PMO's office, for example, will say, On this date at this time the prime minister
Speaker:will give a speech and there will be a press conference You can register and then we'll
Speaker:give you details. So you don't know where it's happening. You just know what city it's taking
Speaker:place in so then you register and You know, they either ignore your registration they never
Speaker:send you the information or they'll come back and they say you're not accredited So they
Speaker:have this process as I understand it Where it not it isn't accredited journalist It's not
Speaker:that you are a bonafide journalist. That's not what they're asking you. What they're asking
Speaker:you is, have you been approved by the prime minister's office to attend these press conferences?
Speaker:That's what they mean by accredited. And of course, they're not going to prove me to. So
Speaker:I can't answer questions, even though I'm a card carrying member of the freelance union
Speaker:in Canada, even though I've been doing journalism for over a decade and I've had hundreds of
Speaker:reports published on various media. They will not accredit me. It flies in the face of what
Speaker:journalism is supposed to be, right? Like it's not supposed to be something where there is,
Speaker:you know, where there is a credited journalist and not a credit journalist. It's supposed
Speaker:to be that anybody can be a journalist if they want to. Right. Exactly. And so by controlling
Speaker:this, I mean, it's very, it's very manufactured consent, but much, much less subtle than it
Speaker:can often be. I mean, this is very blatant manipulation. Yeah. It's a shame. I don't think people in
Speaker:this country really understand how difficult it is for the media to get access to these
Speaker:people. It's extremely tightly controlled. And if you're being given regular access to senior
Speaker:officials in the government, it's because they've made a determination that you're friendly.
Speaker:Bottom line, you're going to ask friendly questions. You're not going to challenge the fundamental
Speaker:orthodoxy behind the government's actions. You know, you'll pretend you like give them a little.
Speaker:Of course, there is a little bit of. uh, shall we say scrutiny applied by the media. If there
Speaker:was no scrutiny at all, they'd have absolutely no credibility and everybody know what they're
Speaker:just propaganda. So they have to engage in some level of critical scrutiny, but they never
Speaker:really challenged the fundamental premises of government action. For example, the capitalist
Speaker:system or the fact we have an imperialist foreign policy, the fact that we've aligned ourselves
Speaker:with egregious human rights liars, uh, violators. You can't touch those with a 10 foot pole.
Speaker:And I think like in the environment in which you get like an official response or an interview,
Speaker:you're getting those canned political prepared answers. And in the environment that Dmitri
Speaker:and Yves are finding them is sometimes fundraisers. They've got a whole other line of thinking.
Speaker:They've got talking points that are completely unrelated to what they're about to be asked
Speaker:about. And I think catching them off guard is what helps prove that illegitimacy that allows
Speaker:them to stumble through that, right? Rather than these polished answers that we see regurgitated
Speaker:through. typical media sources, right? But they're not ready. Well, I mean, I think some of them
Speaker:are steeled against expecting you at this point. You have some favorite targets and correct
Speaker:me if I'm wrong. And I imagine you'd really want one on ones. I know you got MP Miller,
Speaker:but perhaps Mr. Jolie would be on your, your to-do list, House Father and obviously the
Speaker:prime minister. Yeah. And Freeland. Oh God. Oh, I had, you know what, she's in my notes
Speaker:with a question mark because my question about Freeland is like, I have not, I have not seen
Speaker:you guys cross paths. Maybe I missed the video, but is she being particularly elusive? I feel
Speaker:like she's laying low through this entire thing. Well, she does, she is very elusive. Part of
Speaker:the problem that we have, just logistically that even I have is we're based in Montreal
Speaker:and her riding is in Toronto. She spends a lot of time in Toronto. You know, we know this
Speaker:from various communications that her office puts out. So she's almost always in Toronto
Speaker:or Ottawa. She's talking to some Bay Street bigwigs or something. But yeah, it's true.
Speaker:I've never actually crossed paths with Christina Freeland. We went to her office a couple of
Speaker:times, occupied it, but she was nowhere in town at the time. I want to say something about
Speaker:fundraisers though. They are incredible opportunities because these things are meant to be relatively
Speaker:intimate affairs. and you get into them and you get to listen to a whole speech and there's
Speaker:usually a crowd of media there who may actually provide some coverage to your disruption but
Speaker:the problem is you have to pay money and oftentimes it's very significant money to get in there.
Speaker:One of the best, maybe even the best disruption I ever was part of was in 2018
Speaker:in May of that year an Israeli sniper shot a Canadian-Palestinian doctor in Gaza. His name
Speaker:is Dr. Tarek Lubani. He was shot in both legs. This was during the Great March of Return,
Speaker:when refugees were walking up to the fence of the concentration camp and demanding that they
Speaker:be allowed to return to their homeland. And they were being gunned down mercilessly by
Speaker:Israeli snipers. Dr. Lubani, who frequently goes to Gaza and treats Palestinians, at El
Speaker:Shifa Hospital, which was just destroyed by the Israelis. He was wearing a medical garb
Speaker:in the field, clearly identified as a doctor, and he got shot twice. What does the Canadian
Speaker:government do? Two weeks after this happens, they enter into an enhanced free trade agreement
Speaker:with Israel. Rather than impose sanctions, they rewarded Israel. And so a character by the
Speaker:name of Eli Cohen, who was the economy minister of Israel at the time, and who is now the foreign
Speaker:minister, and is deeply complicit in this genocide. He comes to Toronto at the time, Francois-Philippe
Speaker:Champagne was the foreign minister, and they hold this big shindig at the Royal York Hotel.
Speaker:And to get in, it was like 150 bucks a piece, and we raised enough money to buy five tickets.
Speaker:And so we went in there, and one of the people who went in there with us was Hamam Farah.
Speaker:who is a Canadian Palestinian. Yeah, you know, her mom is, he's got family in Gaza. You know,
Speaker:and we stood up one after the other and, you know, let our feelings be known to Mr. Cohen
Speaker:about what happened. And the entire thing was basically a train wreck. This fundraiser was
Speaker:a train wreck because the thing lasted a good 20, 25 minutes, the disruption, but that's
Speaker:costly, right? And it takes tremendous amount of coordination. to pull that off. You go one
Speaker:at a time? Yeah. Yeah, we had a distinct plan. We knew exactly what order we were going in.
Speaker:We had, we knew what we were going to say. We divided up sort of subject matter and we had
Speaker:another person who was designated to film the entire thing. So it's complicated to pull that
Speaker:off, but it's really, it's disgraceful that you have to go to these lengths to ask these
Speaker:politicians tough questions. It's just, it's crazy. A lot of pay for access. Absolutely.
Speaker:And that's just... It speaks to our whole political system, right, that even as a journalist, you
Speaker:essentially do have to pay for access and still have so very little influence over their responses.
Speaker:And I mean, Canada has finally called for a ceasefire, sort of, begrudgingly is how I described
Speaker:it. And not even all the Liberals are happy about this. Housefather in particular has kind
Speaker:of made a mission not only to prop up this genocide, but to demonize pro-Palestinian activism. And
Speaker:I've seen him accosted quite a few times. How many other politicians are out there that are
Speaker:so—we saw a list released by the Maple—I'll have to edit that if I'm wrong—of all of the
Speaker:MPs who were taken on a trip to Israel. through lobbyist groups. Are all those folks on your
Speaker:list of politicians that need to be held accountable? Sure, you know, I'll disrupt any MP anywhere
Speaker:anytime if that person needs to be held to account. We, you know, we try to focus on people who
Speaker:are, you know, particularly powerful in the government for obvious reasons, right? They're
Speaker:the ones who have the greatest impact on or the greatest role in formulation of Canadian
Speaker:policy. But any member of parliament, in my view, should be held to account through rigorous
Speaker:questioning, in any, you know, wherever the opportunity presents itself. You know, you
Speaker:mentioned the case of Housefather. I just want to say something about Housefather. When Tarek
Speaker:Lubani was shot, you know, even though the Canadian government, you know, shortly thereafter entered
Speaker:into an enhanced free trade agreement with Israel and brought over the economy minister to, you
Speaker:know, wine and dine him on Bay Street. There was a brief moment when the Trudeau government
Speaker:condemned Israel within 24 hours. And what caused this, by the way, in my view, was that the
Speaker:Canadian press actually reported on it. Okay, so there were articles in the Globe and Mail,
Speaker:there was one in the Toronto Star, London Free Press, because TADEC is based in London, Ontario.
Speaker:At that point, Trudeau puts out a statement, which was arguably the harshest statement he's
Speaker:ever put out in his time as prime minister about something Israel did. And... Lo and behold,
Speaker:Michael Hauswether and Michael Levitt, who at that time was a liberal MP, who's now the CEO
Speaker:of the Friends of Simon Wiesenthal Center, and he was also the chair of a parliamentary subcommittee
Speaker:on international human rights at that moment, they put out their own statement and criticized
Speaker:their government for having the temerity to condemn Israel's shooting of a Canadian-Palestinian
Speaker:doctor. So I called them out for this and then I was attacked by the leader of the, by the
Speaker:prime minister himself and by the head of the opposition and also by Jagmeet Singh because
Speaker:I called them out for putting the interests of Israel ahead of those of Canada, which in
Speaker:my view is exactly what they were doing. You know, and it had nothing to do, of course,
Speaker:with the claim was that I was saying this about them because they're Jewish. This has absolutely
Speaker:nothing to do with the fact that they're Jewish. It has to do with an ideology. ascribed to,
Speaker:which is a fundamentally racist ideology. And, you know, I've condemned plenty of people in
Speaker:the Canadian Parliament for espousing that ideology who are not Jewish, they're Christians or even
Speaker:atheists. This is, you know, fundamentally, you can't even criticize people on the basis
Speaker:of their record without being subjected to these kinds of smears in this country nowadays. Even
Speaker:when they're throwing a Canadian-Palestinian doctor under the bus, I mean, it's remarkable.
Speaker:Or defending genocide. Even worse, the worst of things. You can't possibly do something
Speaker:worse than our government's now doing. You've given a few examples on how Canada has been
Speaker:complicit in this, more so in the absence of condemnation or keeping close relations despite
Speaker:the human rights record and the fact that it participates in an illegal occupation. But
Speaker:you gave MP Mark Miller. more than that in terms of what Canada can be doing to end the siege
Speaker:on Gaza and then end the occupation. Do you want to share them with us? Sure. So he says,
Speaker:you know, what should we do? And by the way, I think the reason why he asked me that question
Speaker:is because he was buying time. He just wanted to make me talk because he didn't know what
Speaker:to do. But anyways, whatever his motivation may have been, I rhymed off the following,
Speaker:imposing arms embargo on Israel. You've done that with respect to countless other human
Speaker:rights violators. Why can't you do it with Israel? I said to him, your government gives preferential
Speaker:tariff treatment to products produced in Israel's illegal settlements. You do this even though
Speaker:your government acknowledges that the settlements are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
Speaker:Stop giving them preferential tariff treatment. Ban their importation into Canada. Your government
Speaker:allows these products to be marked as product of Israel. I've been litigating a case on behalf
Speaker:of Dr. David Kattenberg for five years. to try to get the government to ban the use of product
Speaker:of Israel labels on these settlement products. I said, stop that. Tell these people that they
Speaker:can't put those labels on these products. Expel the Israeli ambassador. And he looks at me
Speaker:and when I said that, he goes, you want us to expel Israeli diplomats? I said, yeah, why
Speaker:not? Has he not been keeping up? Canada would not be the first country. No, and not only
Speaker:that, but they expelled how many Russian diplomats did they expel? So what Israeli diplomats,
Speaker:why do they get a free pass? That's funny that he was astonished at the mere suggestion. And
Speaker:then he says to me, he goes, And what should we do about Hamas? I said, would you do the
Speaker:same things? You know, he goes, you want us to sanction a terrorist organization? So what
Speaker:he actually said to me, I said, sir, your government is sanctioning terrorist organizations. It's
Speaker:been doing it for years. Why are you expressing amazement that I would suggest you should sanction
Speaker:a terrorist organization? It was literally incoherent babble that came out of this man's mouth. That's
Speaker:how I feel like all the discussion around this is like, makes no sense. Or I've described
Speaker:it as the Twilight Zone, where people are just spouting the most obvious hypocrisies and pretending
Speaker:that that's not happening. And you're looking around going, are you hearing yourself? Especially
Speaker:in proximity to what has just happened in Ukraine and how much we know about our response to
Speaker:that. And these are the same people. Often on Twitter, they even have the Ukraine flag in
Speaker:their bio. And you're just like, I don't know where to go from there with you. Like, yeah,
Speaker:you can't see that. I don't know where to start. But yeah, well, I'm sorry to interrupt. One
Speaker:of the worst genocide apologists in the Canadian media nowadays is Andrew coin. Go check out
Speaker:his Twitter profile. Oh, yes. No, I blocked it. But beside the Ukrainian flag, Israeli
Speaker:flag. How do you reconcile those two things? I mean, the man lives in some kind of alternate
Speaker:universe. You know what, there's very few flag combinations that can exist on Twitter that
Speaker:I'm not wary of, like very few, maybe an Irish and a Palestinian flag or something. I don't
Speaker:know, but yeah, that's a big red flag. Yeah, I mean, we were doing an episode a couple days
Speaker:ago on the rise of fascism in the West and in... in Canadian politics. And one of the things
Speaker:that we kind of talked about was how opportunistic it often is. And that's how you get situations
Speaker:where, you know, you get that Ukraine-Israel flag combo. It's because we're opportunistic
Speaker:to whatever most benefits our interests, as opposed to having any sort of consistency in
Speaker:our application of, you know, human rights. whatnot. I mean, Canada respecting human rights
Speaker:is a bit rich, considering how many of those human rights had to be written because of Canadian
Speaker:violations in previous wars and whatnot. Yeah. I want to just qualify one thing though, I
Speaker:must part company with you on one thing. I think I suspect you probably will agree with me on
Speaker:this. But you said our interests. These policies are not in the benefit of the interest, not
Speaker:to the benefit of ordinary Canadians. There's absolutely no benefit to ordinary Canadians
Speaker:in supporting a damn genocide. They are disgracing this country. And not only that, not only are
Speaker:they destroying whatever credibility left, is left for Canada on the international stage,
Speaker:but they're generating a tremendous amount of anger against Canada in the Muslim and Arab
Speaker:world. With complete justification, people are angry. And, you know, we all know the term
Speaker:blowback. You know, I'm worried. And we should all be worried. When you support an open brazen
Speaker:genocide the way our government is doing, you know, it's all of a sudden they put a target
Speaker:on our backs. There's a lot of angry people out there. 9-11 happened for a reason. It was
Speaker:a detrocity, of course. But, you know, if you actually listen to the people who participated
Speaker:in that, they said very clearly, we're outraged by what is being done to Arab and Muslim peoples
Speaker:and including the Palestinians. So this is not in our interest. This is in the interest of
Speaker:the elite. And Canada's done a pretty good job of standing out. Normally we like to. Veil
Speaker:our really bad foreign policy, you know, speak out of two sides of our face. Canada's famous
Speaker:for it. We covered that in our interview with Tyler Shipley, where we appeared to be doing
Speaker:something good and in the background, we'll condemn them and then sign a free trade agreement.
Speaker:That was the example you gave earlier. But in this particular instance, we have stood out
Speaker:like a sore thumb at sometimes going beyond the US position. and lagging behind others
Speaker:who have kind of come around to the ceasefire. Or first, it was like temperament, you know,
Speaker:easy, like, let's lessen the civilian deaths. And I'm also frustrated that it took this long
Speaker:to simply get Canada to come around to a ceasefire position that they don't even really seem to,
Speaker:you know, that their hearts not in it. You know, if we can talk like that, like they're not
Speaker:going to make any efforts to achieve this ceasefire. Right. So what do we actually need them to
Speaker:do next? And I think you apologize for interrupting me, but I think I interrupted you in giving
Speaker:the list of things that Canada can do. So an arms embargo, the preferential trade, expelling
Speaker:diplomats. Did I miss any? Did we cut you off? Sure. Ban the importation of Israeli settlement
Speaker:products, not just remove preferential tariff treatment, but if you're going to let them
Speaker:into the country, insist that they be accurately labeled. You know, it should say they're coming
Speaker:from a settlement in occupied territory. In fact, it should say an illegal settlement in
Speaker:occupied territory, which is the Canadian government's position that they're illegal. You know, there's
Speaker:a whole panoply of sanctions. That's just a really Israel's exports don't come from the
Speaker:settlements. They come from businesses that are situated within the internationally recognized
Speaker:boundaries of Israel. You could ban those too. You could just cut off exactly what we did
Speaker:to Russia, right? We basically severed all economic relations with Russia with some minor exceptions.
Speaker:Why is Israel not being given the same treatment? You know, you could go, I didn't mention this,
Speaker:you could go to the international criminal court and file a complaint. You know what Canada
Speaker:did a year ago? The General Assembly referred a matter to the International Court of Justice.
Speaker:I believe it was the legality of the occupation, but it was having scrutiny about some aspect
Speaker:of Israel's behavior that amounts to a war crime. And Bob Ray, genocide Bob Ray, Canada's ambassador
Speaker:to the United Nations, sends a letter to the International Court of Justice in August, you
Speaker:know, contrary to the overwhelming... view of the international community on this issue,
Speaker:because most states want the ICJ to review this conduct, says we don't support you exercising
Speaker:jurisdiction over this case. Don't do it. You know, Israel hasn't consented. Well, of course
Speaker:it hasn't consented. It's an egregious human rights violator and knows what the outcome
Speaker:is going to be. So why don't you send a letter now that they're committing genocide to the
Speaker:ICJ and say, you know what, we rescind that. We take it back. We do support you exercising
Speaker:jurisdiction at the end of the day. And these are just things I can think of off the top
Speaker:of my head. Okay? There's so many more things that the government could do. One thing I should
Speaker:add is a mere change in the language that it employs. So let's stop, you know, pretending
Speaker:that this right to defend itself, which they talk about incessantly, extends to the mass
Speaker:murder of Palestinian children and say what this actually is, which is a war crime. It's
Speaker:a crime against humanity. acknowledge that Israel is an apartheid state, which virtually the
Speaker:entire international human rights community now acknowledges. What does the Trudeau government
Speaker:do? It says, oh no, we disagree with that assessment. And then when they, on the rare occasion, they
Speaker:get asked why, they won't tell you. They won't say why, because they have no justification
Speaker:for rejecting the apartheid label. So there's rhetorical changes they could adopt. Literally,
Speaker:they haven't done anything, anything of the multitude of things they could do. The mental
Speaker:gymnastics the folks must do that write some of these statements and how much time they
Speaker:probably spend on crafting that language. So you know it's very, very deliberate because
Speaker:then none of them walk outside of that. And we are always, in this case, steps and steps
Speaker:behind other nation states that have seemingly come around like the United Kingdom and France
Speaker:now. But who's to say that that's not just simply lip service to the millions of people who have
Speaker:taken to the streets and other activists like you doing various actions across the country.
Speaker:Now, some of the things that you mentioned, I can see kind of being easier than others
Speaker:for the liberals to accomplish in the circumstances that they're under now. So what would you say
Speaker:to critics though that say like the liberals would just never do that or they would never
Speaker:get that passed? in the House of Commons? Well, why would say that it is official party policy
Speaker:of the NDP. Like one of the few good things you can say about the federal NDP nowadays,
Speaker:is that they have a policy calling for an arms embargo in Israel. Okay, so there's no reason
Speaker:to believe that yeah, and this is probably in my view, it is the single most powerful thing
Speaker:that is the candidate could do is to impose an arms embargo in Israel. We have seen the
Speaker:NDP vote against their policy books, though, for very many times. But if they're going to
Speaker:do that, hold them to account then. OK, expose them for the frauds and liars that they are.
Speaker:But that's their official policy. They've actually stood up in Parliament since this genocide
Speaker:began and have called for an arms embargo. They'd be in a very difficult spot. If they vote in
Speaker:favour of an arms embargo, of course it's going to pass. And I think that the I'm sure that
Speaker:the two Green Party MPs would go along with it, even though they too are acting in a cowardly
Speaker:manner, frankly. I don't think they're going to oppose an arms embargo on Israel. That's
Speaker:official Green Party policy. So what do we need to do to get the liberals to get that in motion?
Speaker:Do you think we're doing what we need to do? I think we have made a good start. The whole
Speaker:point of these disruptions is to apply pressure. And I believe these people, they are affected
Speaker:when every time they show their face in public, somebody is calling them out for supporting
Speaker:the genocide. even if they don't have a conscience, which is certainly arguable, they are concerned
Speaker:about how they look in public. And it is uncomfortable to be called a genocide supporter in front
Speaker:of your fans. So I think that we have to escalate. And this has to be, it has to be a virtual
Speaker:slam dunk in their minds that every time they go out in public, this is going to happen to
Speaker:them every time. When they get that uncomfortable, there's this great story that Chris Hedges
Speaker:tells. about Kissinger's memoirs, which I never could bring myself to read. So I just I'm trusting
Speaker:Chris Hedges when he says this. He says that Kissinger told of a scene in the White House
Speaker:during the height of the Vietnam War protests, where, you know, they had surrounded the White
Speaker:House with buses and irate thousands upon thousands of irate protesters were surrounding the White
Speaker:House. And some of them were clamming over the. the buses and Nixon turns to Kissinger and
Speaker:says, Henry, they're coming to get us. Not long after that, he brought the Vietnam War to an
Speaker:end. Now, I'm not advocating for violence. I want to be very clear about that. But should
Speaker:we strike the fear of God in their hearts? Should we shame them, embarrass them? You know, and
Speaker:I've seen some, I haven't seen this done yet in Canada, but I'm fully I've seen activists
Speaker:in the United States find the homes of these people and stand outside on their front lawn
Speaker:or on the street in their neighborhoods and condemn them for their depravity. That's the
Speaker:kind of thing we need to be doing. It can work. And I think some indication of that is that
Speaker:the Canadian government finally changed its position on the ceasefire. So one thing I'm
Speaker:wondering about is absent the government actually doing like having an official arms embargo.
Speaker:How much more should we be escalating our tactics in terms of actually blockading these factories?
Speaker:Right? There was some of that happening earlier on. I haven't heard about it as much recently.
Speaker:I'm not sure if that means it's not happening. I'm just not getting exposed to that. But that
Speaker:is something, it is a possibility, right? That is one thing we should consider.
Speaker:by Palestinian solidarity activists. I wholeheartedly endorse those things. I've taken part in actions
Speaker:at General Dynamics in London, Ontario. But you should know that if you take it to that
Speaker:point, you're risking arrest. So people should have no illusions about that. When you start
Speaker:interfering with the, even if you're doing peaceably, ethically, you're interfering with the economic
Speaker:activity of some major corporation. and you're not just, you know, hectoring some depraved
Speaker:politician in a public venue, there's a higher likelihood that you're going to get arrested
Speaker:for trespass or breaching the piece or something like that. If you're willing and able to assume
Speaker:that risk, then this is an essential part of the disruptions that we need to be engaged
Speaker:in. Now, one thing's getting arrested, the other one is what happens after you get arrested.
Speaker:As a lawyer, I guess I'll defer to you on what the consequences there are. But is it likely
Speaker:for them to, you know, throw the book at you kind of deal? Well, you know, it's really hard
Speaker:to say how much time we were going to get to meet you. We need to know that you can't really
Speaker:answer that question responsibly without having specific facts before you write as a general
Speaker:principle. Typically, what happens in these cases is people get charged with trespass.
Speaker:And in fact, I was not charged for that Royal York event. I was trespassed out of a hotel.
Speaker:They told me if I came back, I would be arrested if I ever came back. So you've not been arrested
Speaker:for, I guess it's hard to arrest a lawyer especially, because I imagine some people do get arrested
Speaker:for doing what you do, maybe released without charge. But the people that did Scotiabank,
Speaker:they ended up getting charged as well and all they did was essentially disrupt. But To Santiago's
Speaker:point where talking about disrupting the factories and whatnot, well, now we know a lawyer, but
Speaker:no, just kidding. I see the way of disrupting their fundraisers, the liberal fundraisers,
Speaker:and their little fan club get-togethers as a way of hitting them where it hurts, right?
Speaker:Hitting the pocketbook, not of Israeli arms manufacturers. That is for other people. We're
Speaker:going to interview Labor for Palestine on how they do that. But you know— Getting cut off
Speaker:from your fundraisers as an MP will pressure you, whether maybe if you don't have a conscience,
Speaker:right? They do want to get reelected. And disrupting those fundraisers from the outside, from the
Speaker:inside does not play well into re-election. So I imagine that is a pressure point in itself
Speaker:on top of the talking points, hopefully, that you're giving them while you do this. But...
Speaker:Absolutely. So people, the main reason I think these disruptions are important is not so much
Speaker:what happens in the room. It's when you share what happened in the room with the broader
Speaker:world. Right. That's a critical aspect of this because usually when you enter into one of
Speaker:these venues, uh, you're surrounded by psycho fans. There's a people who are big fans of
Speaker:the politics. Oh, we know partisans, don't worry. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Or the political climbers
Speaker:and they're just trying to ingratiate themselves with whoever's the star of the show. Uh, so
Speaker:you're not likely to make a lot of headway with those people. But some of them do actually
Speaker:come up to us afterwards and say thank you for that. I appreciate that. Sometimes they say,
Speaker:you said something I wanted to say, and I've never, this happened today. When we came out
Speaker:of this event, a young lady came up to us outside the building and said, you said exactly what
Speaker:I wanted to say. I just didn't have the courage to say it. So it inspires people to pick up
Speaker:the mantle, and to broaden the movement and to apply further pressure. It does educate
Speaker:the public. These are very important reasons to engage in this sort of behavior. But mostly,
Speaker:it's just we've got to make them as comfortable as possible about their depravity. Do you ever
Speaker:feel nervous going into these confrontational situations? Because I go live all the time,
Speaker:I still get incredibly nervous when I go to record certain things or speak, even though
Speaker:I seemingly don't appear. You appear and Eves appear fearless in this battle. Right. And
Speaker:you have a mission when you're in there. I know the adrenaline's pumping once you get going.
Speaker:But, you know, as you're walking up to the door, as you're planning to have trepidation and
Speaker:worry. Absolutely. Yeah, I know. I'm not I'm not fearless. Once my once my this is the way,
Speaker:you know, I have the same feeling when I go into court, like when I feel a lot of nervousness
Speaker:until I stand at the podium. But for some reason, once my mouth starts moving, it all goes away.
Speaker:Just thank God, you know. But leading right up to the moment where I start talking, yeah,
Speaker:absolutely. And I'm becoming increasingly nervous in the current environment because, you know,
Speaker:so I disrupted with, well, Eve wasn't allowed in the building, but there was an event involving
Speaker:the prime minister about two weeks ago. And I got roughed up pretty bad by a Montreal cop.
Speaker:And when I, when he got to the door, like they dragged me a good 30, 40 meters. There were
Speaker:three RCMP guys and this crazy cop. And we get to the door, I still had my iPhone. He smacked
Speaker:my arm hard. He was trying, obviously, to cause my iPhone to fall out of my hand. And fortunately,
Speaker:it wasn't damaged. But this guy was a brute. And they kind of had to restrain them, the
Speaker:RCMP guys. They're relatively civilized. But these cops can get these, you know, the municipal
Speaker:cops, some of these guys can go crazy. And it's not just that. You're walking into, as I mentioned,
Speaker:hostile setting. It's quite apart from the law enforcement officials who are there. Oftentimes,
Speaker:you know, the people there are big supporters of the politician and they'll boo you. That
Speaker:happens, right? And anything the politician says to shut you down, they all give them a
Speaker:standing ovation. So it's a stressful experience. But I want to say to people out there who may
Speaker:be thinking about doing this, so far, I've never been arrested. I've never been charged with
Speaker:anything. The worst thing that happened to me was I was told if I returned to the Royal York,
Speaker:I'd be trespassed. And I got my arm, you know, hit by a cop. And I've always felt that we
Speaker:accomplished something good. And so I don't want to overstate the danger. I'm glad you
Speaker:feel that way because you do actions that kind of don't have measurable outcomes as a success
Speaker:or a victory, especially when you're dragged out and roughed up. It's kind of hard to look
Speaker:back at that and see a victory. But I'm assuring you that people who view this content, that
Speaker:kind of performative show that it ends up being and it is I'm not trying to belittle it because
Speaker:it is it's something to inspire people to do, to get people riled up, to get your opponent
Speaker:on the back foot a little bit. And it has an impact. It absolutely does, because not only
Speaker:is it poignant and it's needed, but it's It's entertainment as well, because we all want
Speaker:to do it. We want to see them squirm. We want to see them sweat and not have answers. We
Speaker:all want to debate those, right? I want to see the interaction with Miller, because yeah,
Speaker:shouting at someone has a certain, but really getting them to go back and forth and then
Speaker:winning that battle is something else. So I know your time is short. I want to ask you,
Speaker:you get your tips from the public. Is there a best way for folks to communicate with you
Speaker:if they'd like? Sure. So on my website, DimitriLascaris.org, there's a little contact function. And if you
Speaker:fill out that form, it goes immediately to the email that I use, the main, my main email account,
Speaker:and I will respond. I always respond to people eventually. It sometimes takes me a little
Speaker:time. But if you learn of an event, please send it to me. If you have my email address already,
Speaker:then send it to me directly, please. I invite you to do that. But if you don't, just, you
Speaker:can just do it through my website. Yeah, I think that responsiveness speaks into the network
Speaker:set and modes of communication that we need to build to be able to move fast because even
Speaker:Santiago this week needed to kind of respond to an event and it was like, I need to know
Speaker:when these are happening, like before it's four hours too late, you know? And so figuring out
Speaker:how to do that and be ahead of the game is important as well. Thank you so much, Dimitri, for sharing
Speaker:some of your secret tactics. Santiago, do you have a question before? Not so much a question,
Speaker:more of a, you know, I'm here in Toronto, I know a few disruptors. So if you ever get word
Speaker:of something in here in Toronto that should be disrupted, let me know and I'll boost that
Speaker:to the relevant parties. I will definitely take you up on that offer. Thank you very much.
Speaker:The word of the day. The network of disruptors has begun. I love it. Yes. Thank you so much,
Speaker:Dimitri. Good luck with your next confrontation. We will be watching. Thank you.
Speaker:Bye bye.
Speaker:Not only does our support come from the progressive community, so does our content. So reach out
Speaker:to us and let us know what or who we should be amplifying. So until next time, keep disrupting.
