Change Course: Stigmatizing Capitalism on Campus
Climate justice organizers talk about the changing landscape of campus organizing across Turtle Island, divestment as a tactic and the increasingly heavy hand of university administrators in so-called Canada.
Celine, Levi and Evelyn all came to Change Course from different backgrounds and with slightly different political priorities, as we all do, but they have found common ground for growth in targeting the big banks for their role in the systems that oppresses us.
Included are reports from Western University and University of Ottawa on their escalations against student demonstrations, and a workable list of skills we could all be working on.
__________
All of our content is free - made possible by the generous sponsorships of our Patrons. If you would like to support us: Patreon
Resources:
Transcript
Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints
Speaker:of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining
Speaker:power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,
Speaker:we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle
Speaker:capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know
Speaker:we need. that the history of the fossil fuel divestment movement exists in a longer history
Speaker:of resistance to colonialism, a longer history of resistance to state violence. Like we exist
Speaker:in a lineage of people that have fought and have won. The world-ending scenarios that we
Speaker:experience now are not new to many communities, to many people, but there's always been resistance
Speaker:to that. And I think sharing that with students and giving them that knowing that we can win
Speaker:what we need to win. because history proves that we are able to win. And then also living
Speaker:in like the belly of the beast per se, our responsibility is to ensure that we are doing what needs to
Speaker:be done to reduce the harm that's being inflicted abroad. That was Celine from the Organization
Speaker:Change Course. In a moment, she will introduce herself as will her two comrades. And as they
Speaker:do, we learn a lot because as they... each describe how they personally got to this point of organizing,
Speaker:we also get a brief history of the divestment movement itself. We hear about its benefits,
Speaker:its complexities, as well as the theory of change that drives change courses work with post-secondary
Speaker:students. And it wouldn't be a discussion about campus organizing if we didn't talk about the
Speaker:increased
Speaker:hard to normalize violent police responses to deal with student demonstrations of all kinds,
Speaker:not just encampments. How does this impact students determined to push back or organizations like
Speaker:this who have tasked themselves with going after the pillars of power? Let's listen in and find
Speaker:out. My name is Celine, I use she-ha pronouns. I am a climate organizer, climate justice organizer,
Speaker:who started off within African organizing, because I grew up in Cape Town, South Africa, and so
Speaker:that's a big part of why it is that I organize within the climate movement and then also movement
Speaker:spaces more broadly. I am currently the co-campus organizing lead at Changecourse, one of the
Speaker:more recent hires. And I work to support the recruitment pipeline disruption strategy that
Speaker:we have. So supporting student organizers on various campuses, training, mentoring, and
Speaker:skill building young organizers on campuses, who are doing climate justice work, and then
Speaker:also various divestment campaigns on the campus, and in particular, the strategy looks to disrupt
Speaker:the recruitment pipeline of big banks on the campus, because we know that big banks like
Speaker:RBC are interested in students in youth. future customers and then also the future workforce.
Speaker:And so in the support, we're just really trying to say that if big banks like RBC don't stop
Speaker:the investments in these destructive industries, students will stop their labor at these big
Speaker:banks. So really just supporting young organizers and skill building, because that's necessary,
Speaker:not just within the work we do, but broadly, necessary skills in just general life, yeah.
Speaker:Did I hear you correctly? A recruitment and disruption pipeline? What was that phrase?
Speaker:Recruitment pipeline disruption. I like that. I feel like that's the episode title. Anyway,
Speaker:sorry, I had to make sure I heard you correctly there. These are definitely my kind of people.
Speaker:Evelyn, can you please introduce yourself? Yeah, so my name is Evelyn. I use she and her pronouns.
Speaker:And I work with ChangeCourse. I've been here since we founded in 2021. So I was formerly
Speaker:a student at U of T studying. math which has nothing to do with what I do now. And got was
Speaker:kind of like on the periphery of my campus' divestment campaign. So U of T kind of has
Speaker:a history like many Canadian schools where there was like a really strong divestment campaign.
Speaker:It was brought forward to the board of governors. There was going to be a vote on whether or
Speaker:not to move forward. Everybody was recommending like divest from fossil fuels. That's the way
Speaker:to go. And then the president said actually no we're not going to do that and crack down
Speaker:and... So that kind of fell apart and then this new campus group called Leap U of T emerged,
Speaker:founded by somebody named Julia. And I knew her and was kind of on the periphery and not
Speaker:super involved. And then sort of towards the end of my, I guess third year, got a lot more
Speaker:involved with the campus U of T divestment work. So looking at trying to pressure U of T to
Speaker:end their investments in fossil fuels. And from there got involved with what was called the
Speaker:Divest Canada Coalition. So coming out of the pandemic, we were all kind of forced online
Speaker:and in this very new context of campus organizing, trying to figure out like, what do we do? How
Speaker:do we keep up the momentum on our universities knowing that we can't actually be on the physical
Speaker:space where they kind of hold all this power and emphasis. And so that became a coalition
Speaker:of student groups across Canada who just kind of got together during the pandemic and we're
Speaker:like, we have. all this time and we have to be on Zoom anyway so we can talk to each other
Speaker:sort of across provinces and share strategy. And that was really helpful to me and sort
Speaker:of building up my understanding of like why we do this, why we target schools because I
Speaker:think I like had this understanding of like our schools are involved with or are invested
Speaker:in fossil fuels and that's bad but I think really being able to kind of engage with other organizers
Speaker:across the country really deepened my analysis. And from there, a group of us got really interested
Speaker:in banks and the roles that banks have to play. So universities are sort of one pillar of power
Speaker:of the fossil fuel industry, but banks are like a huge other beast. And so that pivoted some
Speaker:of us to start thinking about, well, what is the role that banks play in this? How could
Speaker:we target banks as student organizers? And we got together with some climate strikers from
Speaker:the West Coast and all kind of started having conversations, which led me to change course.
Speaker:So that's kind of like a bio slash how I got here. Um, and currently I work as the executive
Speaker:director of Change Course. There's a team of about 4.5 of us. Who's that 0.5? We won't tell
Speaker:them. Yeah. It's like, we've got like a part-time, part-time person. Her name is Alyssa. She's
Speaker:lovely. She does a lot of social media for us. She's a student at Trent. She's great. She
Speaker:is a whole person. Yes. Yeah. We're a very small team. Um, but I work as the, the EOD, um, which
Speaker:sometimes feels a little bit silly because we're so small, but yeah. I'll pass to Levi. Hi,
Speaker:my name's Levi Clarkson. I use they, them pronouns. And I've been organizing in the student movement
Speaker:for almost eight years now. I'm one of the campus organizing co-leads at Change Course. And I
Speaker:started organizing for free education and support for survivors of gender-based violence on campuses,
Speaker:which led me to join the fight for indigenous land rights and climate justice, just seeing.
Speaker:how those issues are so interwoven and intersect, and they really are all the same fight. So
Speaker:that led me here. And in my role as campus organizing co-lead, I get to support student organizers
Speaker:on campuses across the country through training, mentoring, and skill development. It's a pleasure
Speaker:to work with Celine on that. And in particular, I support students who are organizing for their
Speaker:student union or university administration to cut ties with RBC as student unions and university
Speaker:administration are the groups that are entering into contracts with RBC that allow them to
Speaker:have on-campus branches and sponsorship deals, which they then use to greenwash their image
Speaker:amongst young people. So that's kind of the difference between Celine and I's role is just
Speaker:supporting groups with different strategy and different targets. Let's talk a little bit
Speaker:more about ChangeCourse as an organization. It's interesting how you all got here from
Speaker:different places, but that totally reads when you look at the website. It's a very eclectic
Speaker:approach, it seems like. So let's unpack them maybe one at a time, but they're going to blend
Speaker:into one another. But I'd like to talk about divestment. First, let's talk about the benefits,
Speaker:but also some of the drawbacks. There's maybe two, there's like one distinction here that
Speaker:I'll just make and maybe come back to. So there's divestment in the context of like fossil fuel
Speaker:divestment, for example, where students are asking for their university to pull their university's
Speaker:endowments investments from the fossil fuel industry. And then there's the work around
Speaker:banks, which has is not technically about divestment and is more to do with asking major banks,
Speaker:not so much asking, demanding that major banks stop financing fossil fuel projects and fossil
Speaker:fuel expansion projects and projects that violate the rights of indigenous people. And so the
Speaker:difference there is that one is about equity holding, and so how many shares you have in
Speaker:a company, and one is about we are not going to give a loan to build this project. And so
Speaker:there's kind of a difference there in terms of how much material impact is made. But I
Speaker:think coming back to the question of like, divestment is a tool. I think it's a complicated one and
Speaker:it's one like we don't pretend as like the be all end all, like it's not the ultimate solution.
Speaker:And I think the benefits of it though, I would say is that ultimately it's about social license
Speaker:and stigmatization. And so I think this is kind of rooted in our theory of change, but particularly
Speaker:with university campuses. And I think one of the reasons that like BDS and the South African
Speaker:apartheid divestment movement. and the Diocesan Tobacco Movement have all emerged on university
Speaker:campuses is because they're such unique sites of power within the sort of like Western society
Speaker:and Western paradigm that we live in and that they're like research centers, they're where
Speaker:like our politicians come from and there's just a lot of deep ties between private corporations
Speaker:and universities and like really high-ranking public officials and universities and for that
Speaker:reason. there's kind of like this critical lens on universities at all times looking at like,
Speaker:well, what's happening there? And so I think divestment emerged in the fossil fuel context
Speaker:out of the early 2010s. And I think there's like a distinction in that like, I think a
Speaker:story that often gets overlooked is that the first divestment movement came out of Swarthmore's
Speaker:campus in the States. And it was because a group of students traveled to Appalachia and came
Speaker:back and saw the impacts that communities were facing from mountaintop. coal removal there
Speaker:and sort of wondered, well, what can we do as students at this kind of elite university who
Speaker:are pretty removed from this? And the solution they came up with was, well, we can run this
Speaker:fossil fuel divestment campaign and advocate for our university to divest from coal. And
Speaker:so that our university is not implicitly like profiting off of what's happening there. And
Speaker:that really snowballed in the early 2010s following the UN Copenhagen climate crisis or climate
Speaker:convention. when I think the general kind of feeling walking away from that conference was
Speaker:that it was a total failure, nothing was really agreed on. And the reason that was pointed
Speaker:to is that up until that point, politicians and companies and civil society were trying
Speaker:to sit down with fossil fuel companies and like ask them to be reasonable and ask them to sort
Speaker:of rethink what they're doing, which they're not going to do at the end of the day. Their
Speaker:bottom line is to extract and make profit. And so sort of an attempt to say, okay, like they're
Speaker:not going to work with us. So we have to stigmatize this industry. We have to make it like we have
Speaker:to build this negative connotation with being involved with this industry. The reality is,
Speaker:is that when a university pulls their investments from fossil fuels, um, that doesn't make a
Speaker:lot of material impact on the industry itself. Like those shares will go up to market. They'll
Speaker:be bought by somebody else. Everything will continue, but it does have a really powerful
Speaker:say in that, like the way that money moves and the way that money is spent and invested is
Speaker:very, um, We're taught it's very not political and that like you invest your money here and
Speaker:here and here, you diversify your portfolio, you increase your returns, and that's just
Speaker:the way that it goes. We don't question it. And so by kind of putting this critical lens
Speaker:on that and really questioning what that means and why we do that, there is a pretty powerful,
Speaker:I think, social impact that has kind of snowballed into this bigger movement that has ultimately
Speaker:led us to be like, well, now that we've kind of built that foundation for what it means
Speaker:to take away. like material capital support from an industry, how do we then apply that
Speaker:to major debt financing institutions that are providing the loans that are actually needed
Speaker:to make these projects move forward? That stigma is important, right? That stigma is important
Speaker:because we're seeing a lot of people who realize things aren't all right, right? Maybe not climate
Speaker:related, but just in general. And they're not pointed in the right direction. They don't
Speaker:know who their enemy is, right? And again, a lot of people maybe realize where the problem
Speaker:is, but they are stuck trying to sit at those tables still, plead, build relationships with
Speaker:capital as though they can convince them. And that's a lot of wasted energy. So I'm starting
Speaker:to understand the benefits of divestment beyond any kind of material hits that the bank might
Speaker:take. Yeah. And I would also say like, when it comes to the universities, another angle
Speaker:was like, I think there had been this I was not super around at that time, I was pretty
Speaker:young, but I think kind of early 2000s up to the early 2010s, there was a lot of emphasis
Speaker:of like, make the company, make the decision to change. And so the divestment movement on
Speaker:campuses at least was an attempt to step back and say, well, they're not going to change,
Speaker:but like, what are the pillars that sit under them that we can change that will kind of offset
Speaker:their power or take away some of that power and universities is a big one. As I said before,
Speaker:I was like a site of. just like a lot of social power, a lot of social influence. And so I
Speaker:think those kind of come from, those are like the benefits of what I would say divestment
Speaker:is. I think in terms of like your question around limitations, it definitely, yeah, like I said,
Speaker:like in terms of the university level divestment, it doesn't make a huge material impact necessarily.
Speaker:And then I think ultimately it's like, it's not the be all end all. We can pull our investments
Speaker:from fossil fuels, but wherever they end up going are likely going to be extractive. harmful
Speaker:profit-driven industries. And so there is this kind of like constant, it doesn't dismantle
Speaker:capitalism by any means. It just kind of uses what we can as a tool to leverage our power.
Speaker:And so I think then kind of coming back to the distinction between, when it comes to the banks
Speaker:work, ultimately what we're trying to do is apply pressure via campuses and all these campus
Speaker:connections because these companies are competing. to get attention on campus because they know
Speaker:that these are really unique kind of spaces where they're competing for customers, they're
Speaker:competing for like top talent as they say, they're in this like talent war with each other to
Speaker:try to recruit the best folks to come and work for them and so on and so forth. So they really
Speaker:care about their image on campuses and they really care about taking up space on campuses.
Speaker:And so we know that that's something that can be leveraged and similar tactics can be used
Speaker:to kind of... focus in on those sort of strategic points of intervention to ultimately move these
Speaker:big financial institutions to say, okay, like we're not gonna finance these new projects.
Speaker:And that would have more of a material impact on the way that these projects would move forward.
Speaker:It would make them slower. It would make them more expensive. It would make it harder for
Speaker:them to find the needed capital that they need to keep expanding. Well, any thorn in their
Speaker:side is a good thing, right? Any thorn in their side. Do either Levi or Celine want to touch
Speaker:on the choice of divestment as a tactic before we kind of branch off into campus organizing?
Speaker:Yeah, Levi. Yeah, just on the stigma piece and kind of reputational damage, I think our movement
Speaker:poses a really big reputational risk to the banks and the work that we do, particularly
Speaker:on campuses like Evelyn mentioned. RBC and the Big Five Banks pour millions of dollars into
Speaker:having these on-campus branches and on-campus presence for a reason. And it's definitely
Speaker:not the benefit of students or promoting financial literacy, which is what they love to say, that
Speaker:they're there to like support students with their financial literacy. Meanwhile, if you're
Speaker:on the ground on campus, you can see there's like never anyone in these branches a lot of
Speaker:the time. It's really just taking up that space. And RBC really uses this as like a branding
Speaker:thing, a promotional thing. We see the same thing happening with like, uh, RBC pouring
Speaker:so much money into sponsoring certain things on campuses, whether that's a food bank or,
Speaker:um, uh, yes, it's disgusting, right? Yeah. Super cringe of RBC to try to. sponsor food banks
Speaker:or, you know, women's and sports initiatives or sustainability centers on campus. And, you
Speaker:know, they're doing that to greenwash their image. They're doing that to say, look, students,
Speaker:we're your ally. We want to, you know, provide these things for you. But we know that what
Speaker:they really want is to manipulate students into coming to work for them, to bank with them.
Speaker:And so... by calling out RBC's presence on campus and protesting that presence and taking steps
Speaker:to kick RBC off campus, that presents a really big reputational risk to them. So I think that
Speaker:is what is most impactful about our strategy. Yeah, that reminds me of, I spoke to the writers
Speaker:against the war on Gaza about their disruption of the Giller Prize, but their target there
Speaker:is Scotiabank and- through their tactics, they were able to make it so that Scotiabank spent
Speaker:all of this marketing money to look really bad, right? So let RBC try to spend all that money
Speaker:to get on campus. That just gives you folks a nice target, a nice spot for red paint, perhaps,
Speaker:just suggestions. But, yeah, a way to really turn their dollars against them. When we're
Speaker:talking about students, it's... it's assumed, but I'm just going to articulate it like they're
Speaker:our future, right? So if they are learning this in school along with their majors in math and
Speaker:all these other things, this is a good thing. If they see banks as the enemy and not as their
Speaker:benefactor, that is a step in itself. Like that is raising class consciousness baseline, right?
Speaker:And to do that at university, which is grounds for things beyond social movements that like
Speaker:revolutionary even, right? Salim, you're doing a lot of the organizing on the campus. Is this
Speaker:an easy entry point for students? You know, the divestment movement? Because in university,
Speaker:maybe, maybe not. Things change since I've been there. I'm a little bit older, but people generally
Speaker:become a little more politically aware and active in their university years. Although high school
Speaker:students are, are we allowed to say woke anymore? I mean, they are already in it now when that
Speaker:wasn't. when I was the case, but do you find like this is a receptive stream to recruit
Speaker:campus students into the climate justice fight? So Liva and I both support the campus organizing,
Speaker:the underground organizing, and I would say that there are multitudes to the ways that
Speaker:students come into the fight. I think a lot of there are a lot of students that come into
Speaker:the fight from the point of climate justice more broadly. I know for myself. That's how
Speaker:I then started thinking about divestment and like someone who believes in anti-capitalism
Speaker:and that it's necessary for a climate just future was like, oh, okay, how do I understand the
Speaker:flow of capital and how do we disrupt capital? And so I think people come into this movement
Speaker:more broadly through a climate justice lens. And I think that over the last at least five
Speaker:years, there's been increased focus. and a boom in young people questioning systems and questioning
Speaker:why things are the way they are. I think that divestment within climate justice is sort of
Speaker:like, you start off within climate justice, you start off within an issue space within
Speaker:climate justice again, whether it's looking at environmental racism, looking at the impact
Speaker:of, what is it? whether in your particular community and how that's constantly changing, whether
Speaker:it's looking at food systems, whatever it is in your locale or the areas that students are
Speaker:coming from, they start off at that position because the person is political, they're thinking
Speaker:and questioning about their daily life. And then afterwards, students come into climate
Speaker:justice. And then divestment, I think, and fossil fuel divestment feels like once you're in the
Speaker:broad category of climate justice, you're going in a little deeper, like you're focusing in
Speaker:a little bit more How do we then enact, what do we need to do to get a climate just future?
Speaker:Like what do we need to do to ensure that people are able to live and thrive and get everything
Speaker:that they need and then some. And then fossil fuel divestment I think is like, if you're
Speaker:trying to focus in on what you're doing. And so I think I wouldn't say that students necessarily
Speaker:immediately come into divestment and I'm. doing this long-winded way of answering, because
Speaker:as someone who is a black environmental organizer, divestment wasn't necessarily something that
Speaker:I was immediately drawn to. And I don't think members of my community at large, en masse,
Speaker:are also immediately drawn to, because there are other things that we are focusing on. There
Speaker:are other things that are front of mind. But then climate justice creates the space where
Speaker:we get to think a little more critically. We get to think a little more strategy-focused.
Speaker:And then we're saying... on these various campuses, people are doing climate justice work. And
Speaker:then there's this bank's campaign on the campus, but it's not the only thing that students are
Speaker:doing within their work. They are also including calling the students at their universities
Speaker:to divest. They are also trying to see how do we better politically educate students about
Speaker:what's happening, how we make climate political, how do we, for example, support actions on
Speaker:campus beyond just. divestment actions on campus. So I'm saying this to say that's all encompassing.
Speaker:Divestment, as we were talking earlier, is just a tool within the broader fight for climate
Speaker:justice. And then I think people also just, again, come in from different locales. And
Speaker:then afterwards we're like, okay, you have this energy, you have this hunger, you have this
Speaker:appetite to do something. Here's a place that you as a student are able to enact change within
Speaker:your campus environment that... in the longer strategy, like longer term, has reverberating
Speaker:effects. So if one campus is doing a divestment campaign, multiple campuses can join in and
Speaker:collectively across the country, you've got people doing that nationwide impact on these
Speaker:big banks, on the fossil fuel industry, that stigmatization, that removal of the social
Speaker:license, socializing language of divestment, and socializing the fact that... using our
Speaker:dollar or using our position as youth, as future workers, to then say, we don't want this and
Speaker:you're going to listen to us. And then they, and with increased pressure, they do, or they
Speaker:try to like change their ways and be through the organizing we do on campus, through the
Speaker:mentoring, through the training, creating a legacy of students that are able to spot the
Speaker:lies and reading between the lines so that once they leave... university campuses in the workplaces
Speaker:that they are in. They are then able to use those necessary skills to work within their
Speaker:workplaces within the communities beyond just the campus environment. I can't tell you how
Speaker:heartwarming it is for me to hear you say that there has been a shift in the last few years
Speaker:in terms of class consciousness. I think I've said it like three times, but that is sometimes
Speaker:the biggest battle. When Levi said it's all the same fight, it is all the same fight and
Speaker:like that sometimes is the barrier. Folks will not understand or not have the skills to do
Speaker:what they know they need to do. So let's talk a little bit about building those skills on
Speaker:campus and what it looks like. What could more people use to leverage their power? Whether
Speaker:it be students, tenants, workers. disabled people en masse, you know, people power, right? We
Speaker:have people power, but not unless we can leverage it well. So can you give us an idea on what
Speaker:you're giving to students collectively learning together? I know like giving sounds so paternalistic,
Speaker:but what are they learning that's going to turn them into the revolutionaries we need tomorrow?
Speaker:What I was gonna say for the previous question is exactly what you just talked about, Jessa.
Speaker:So yeah, I can start us off on this. Yeah, I think what we've heard from students about
Speaker:this campaign, which warms my heart, is that this campaign, the RBC Off Campus campaign,
Speaker:is really like kind of like an organizing incubator in a way where it really allows folks to gain
Speaker:skills that can be transferred to literally any movement, any other issue that they wanna
Speaker:work on. And like Celine said, we have students that are working across multiple issues. that
Speaker:maybe don't necessarily come to our space with climate being the first thing on their mind
Speaker:as well. Sometimes it's other things like the cost of living, indigenous rights, all of these
Speaker:pieces that relate back to what the banks are doing as well. But we have amazing student
Speaker:groups that are making those connections on their campuses. Students are really concerned
Speaker:about where their money is going, right? And where their institution is spending that money,
Speaker:how they're spending it. And so I think it's super cool that This generation of students
Speaker:is really interested in the financial aspect of where their money is going. And in terms
Speaker:of skills that I think students who come through our campaign and are part of our campaign,
Speaker:it's wide ranging. I think this campaign, because it is so targeted against like RBC and the
Speaker:Big Five banks, like students are able to engage in a really direct way with like a specific
Speaker:target, which is amazing. it allows them to really build out specific strategy around like
Speaker:mapping how power works on their campuses, gain a better understanding of how the board of
Speaker:governors works and senate and all these pieces that they're able to learn through this campaign,
Speaker:how their university's financing works, as well as their student union. They're able to gain
Speaker:a lot of canvassing skills, talking to people, talking to people about what issues matter
Speaker:to them and tying it back to the campaign and what students want to see on campus, really
Speaker:building power with their peers. A lot of our student groups are building coalitions on their
Speaker:campuses and doing coalition building work, which is super amazing. A lot of media skills,
Speaker:storytelling skills, direct action skills. I think something unique about our campaign is
Speaker:that, you know, we're not just doing advocacy. We're doing organizing work. We're doing direct
Speaker:action.
Speaker:building students' confidence, being able to do actions on campus and feel what it feels
Speaker:like in your body to take some risks and start to build that risk tolerance for future actions,
Speaker:whether that's on campus or in community. Similar to Levi, it's really exciting to be with a
Speaker:student group and to see them from like start to maybe graduation if we are lucky enough.
Speaker:or see them like from start of the term to end of the term. And it's really one-on-one relationship
Speaker:building that we do. I think that what's beautiful about Change Course, because I was a student
Speaker:like on the receiving end of a lot of the trainings that were given to a group that I was organizing
Speaker:with at the University of Waterloo, for example, and what I really enjoyed as a student was
Speaker:that responsiveness to what students need on their various campus. So yes, we are. targeting
Speaker:a big bank and yes we're doing this bank's work right but then there are also particular issue
Speaker:points on various campuses that are unique to that location that also need action right and
Speaker:so it's really fun to be able to see and really like fulfilling to be able to see students
Speaker:make the necessary connections the necessary coalitions to be able to build that student
Speaker:power on their campus because they get to understand that we are stronger together than we are apart.
Speaker:and universities thrive, just like the system itself, thrives on divide and conquer. But
Speaker:students are like breaking down the barrier, breaking down silos. And through the skill
Speaker:building and through the training, Levi mentioned a couple of things that we help support in
Speaker:terms of training, power mapping, power analysis, direct action. many different things that are
Speaker:needed to build out a campaign, campaigns 101, canvassing, relational organizing, how to talk
Speaker:to people that are outside of your sphere about a particular issue point. These are necessary
Speaker:skills, not just for climate organizing, but for life in general. If we are going to win
Speaker:the things we need to win, we need to be able to talk to our neighbor. We need to be able
Speaker:to talk to people in our communities. And so seeing students actually do that and seeing
Speaker:students get excited to host events. get excited to engage in action and raise that risk tolerance
Speaker:and being excited to say that we have a bigger enemy and I want to be building with my fellow
Speaker:student to target that enemy is really exciting to be able to witness as someone that is engaging
Speaker:with students one-on-one and also just talking to students and then also outside of the heartwarmingness
Speaker:of being able to see the way students take the trainings that we give and the mentorship that
Speaker:we give into action. Also, there's that personal connection. I think the beauty of Changecourse
Speaker:also is that one-to-one relationship that we have with organizers. Instead of just, we need
Speaker:this one mainstream blanket campaign that can be applied in every context. We really are
Speaker:engaging in a relationship with people. And again, as someone who was on the receiving
Speaker:end of this, I got to know Changecourse team members one-on-one. And now I'm working with
Speaker:them, which is beautiful. But I got to know people one-on-one so that if something was
Speaker:happening, that I couldn't engage in the way I wanted to in a campaign, there were material
Speaker:supports for me or for group members, or if our group was just burnt out and was unable
Speaker:to do a particular thing, there were people would ask, okay, so what do you need? And how
Speaker:can we do, how can we within our scope and with what we have support you in what you need?
Speaker:And I think that is not often the like sexy work, the things that might get headlines,
Speaker:the flashy work, but I think it's the necessary work. because it really still instills values
Speaker:of care, of community, of relationship, and really like struggling with each other. Knowing
Speaker:that people, students as a whole don't have one ideological frame. Like sometimes we blanket
Speaker:youth or young people and students under like this one ideological frame, not understanding
Speaker:the difference in class, in race, immigration status, in the various things that students
Speaker:individually are facing. And so being able to train students to be able to speak to each
Speaker:other allows for people to be able to struggle with each other and that struggle through conflict
Speaker:or understanding how do we actually navigate conflict. We still don't have an answer to
Speaker:that, but we're struggling to find that answer with each other because we're both invested
Speaker:in each other and also in the wider movement. I'm just feeling so nostalgic right now because
Speaker:I think for a moment I forgot what it felt like to organize on campus. I was a mature student,
Speaker:so I was probably like 15 years older than most of my colleagues, my comrades on campus, and
Speaker:I got involved with Amnesty International because, you know, that was my ideal of human rights.
Speaker:And I won't share all of that experience because it's not relative to your story, except for
Speaker:that. Being older, I was already in the workforce, going up against power. That's why I left,
Speaker:you know, to go take political science. So I could be an anti-capitalist with skills. You
Speaker:know, I thought I would learn it in the classroom and I learned some skills in the classroom,
Speaker:but the bulk of the tools that I still use today were learned organizing with my fellow students
Speaker:and going up against university admin and building coalitions around divestment. It was weapons
Speaker:divestment, it was a BDS movement, but my biggest thing that I cherish from that time is watching
Speaker:freshmen, first year students come in and how they transformed after four years of organizing.
Speaker:They were fearless by the end of it. They understood there was no sense in making friends with the
Speaker:top dogs. You know, they had to learn some really hard lessons. We all learn them side by side,
Speaker:but the growth that happens at that stage and kind of when you understand the levers of power,
Speaker:right, they weren't all political science students. A lot of them are art students or English students
Speaker:or history students. And so learning the praxis of power there was it was better done in a
Speaker:group, right? Because it can be disheartening. I'm going back. I don't know if we were recording
Speaker:when Evelyn told the story of Yes, it was part of your introduction on U of T. And that had
Speaker:been our experience at York, where everyone, everyone was behind it. Every petition had
Speaker:been signed, every student group had been on board, every union had passed it, the board
Speaker:of governors had created a committee. And we checked every box we were supposed to check.
Speaker:We won every meeting, every election that needed to be done. And in the end, the head of the
Speaker:university just... dismantled the group that was in charge of the investments or would have
Speaker:been the divestment and all of that work seemingly in that moment felt like for nothing until
Speaker:I remind myself or Celine reminded me of like all the growth that we had and all of the awakening
Speaker:that had happened despite the fact that they never did actually divest from weapons manufacturers.
Speaker:But the seeds that were planted that I never even see I don't know what those flowers look
Speaker:like right now, but I bet you they are fierce as fuck, right? Like some of them I know, I've
Speaker:kept in touch with them and I know I learned so much. So like to think that folks are replicating
Speaker:this like over and over again and coalitions are being built ahead of time is just, I hope
Speaker:this warms the heart of all, especially the old timers listening right now where everyone's
Speaker:feeling like it sucks right now, right? Like everyone is not great. Um. And there's so many
Speaker:struggles going on, but I think reminding ourselves of the work that's being done with youth here
Speaker:has got to be uplifting for folks. Can we talk, though, kind of shift a little bit to the resistance
Speaker:you're facing on campus? So now we know students are on board. We know what you're trying to
Speaker:do, but. surely there's resistance from administrators to divest or to even cede power to students,
Speaker:right? That is half the battle. Even if they agree themselves, they should be divesting
Speaker:from this, that, and the other thing. They surely can't let students win. That would set a precedent
Speaker:they don't want. So what is that resistance looking like and has it shifted over the last
Speaker:year? Because we're talking about climate justice here, but we do talk a lot about Palestine
Speaker:on the show and- campus groups have been extremely active in that regard. And the response has
Speaker:not, from administrators, has been violent. So you're now encouraging people to take risks,
Speaker:right? Learning how to take risks. What is that coming with though? I think what you flagged
Speaker:before was like, yeah, this experience of like, you build all this power, you go to who the
Speaker:decision maker is and they say no. And where that comes from is this, like how universities
Speaker:are increasingly. corporatized, they're increasingly in the pockets of corporate elites and are
Speaker:really pandering to their donors and to their board members and to the folks who they talk
Speaker:to at dinner parties. And so I think this comes back to the power mapping question. We really
Speaker:work hard with students to think through this is the reality, these are the people they care
Speaker:about, and so how do we influence those people? How do we think through who are your allies
Speaker:on campus who have some influence over that, that you're able to move? to then put pressure
Speaker:on those people. And so I think like, in terms of the resistance that we're seeing, I think
Speaker:there's like two things happening. I think, so through our banks work, a lot of it has
Speaker:meant we've been working with students to engage with their student unions. And part of that
Speaker:comes from a place of like, student unions are historically bodies, like organizing bodies,
Speaker:and they have the potential to like leverage a lot of power on campus. But I think through
Speaker:the years, a lot of that has been sort of diminished and a little bit things that become a little
Speaker:bit more apolitical, a little bit more bureaucratic. And so trying to put pressure on students to
Speaker:reengage with these structures and kind of rebuild these structures in a way that can act as political
Speaker:structures and that can be used to wield power on campus has been one of our key strategies.
Speaker:Make student unions again. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. I think I've been reading and I feel like I
Speaker:say this a lot. So Celine and Levi are probably tired of hearing about this, but just like
Speaker:this, the history of of campuses existed as, and this was like, you know, in the context
Speaker:of like Britain in like the 1700s and like very problematic and elitist, but it was a group
Speaker:of students who got together and decided like as a base, as a united collective base, they
Speaker:could make certain demands. So they could demand like lower rent in their communities or like
Speaker:student discounts on things. And if they didn't get what they want, they had the power to like
Speaker:up and leave that community and sort of exert an economic power over that community. and
Speaker:kind of existed as student unions at that time. And so kind of thinking through like, as universities
Speaker:have kind of developed this campus structure and really localized in on certain areas that
Speaker:are not movable, some of that power has shifted really into the hands of administrators and
Speaker:into these like corporate donors and the people that they're sort of in the pocket of. And
Speaker:so working to kind of like re-indigrize some of that campus space building has been really,
Speaker:I think, important to our work. And then when you're talking about resistance, I imagine
Speaker:you're asking some about police. some of the police pushback, I would say. I'm always curious
Speaker:what they're up to. Yeah, I think Levi, did you want to speak to this? Levi wants to speak.
Speaker:Yeah, I definitely. The nodding that there are over there. I do. Levi's excited. I'm a chronic
Speaker:nodder. Like, you can tell when I'm into something. I'm just like my head's bobbing up and down
Speaker:like a bobblehead. The listeners won't be able to see that, but I want you to picture my head
Speaker:bobbing up and down like a bobblehead during this conversation. Yeah, I think to your. point,
Speaker:Jessa, around like, how have we seen the repression and like response on campus shift since the
Speaker:encampments for Palestine this summer? Like, this campaign has always faced like a certain
Speaker:amount of like police response to what we do targeting a corporation. Of course, RBC is
Speaker:in the pocket of like, you know, or RCMP and police are in the pocket of these big corporations.
Speaker:Of course, there's always gonna be a level of these folks are working together, but I think
Speaker:definitely this fall, we've seen an increase in both university response to student protesters
Speaker:more broadly, as well as escalation in police response to our campaign as well. So more broadly
Speaker:speaking, we're seeing universities like Western attempt to quietly pass policies that suppress
Speaker:students' rights to freedom of expression and freedom of assembly on campus. We're seeing
Speaker:universities more and more willing to call in the police and RCMP to remove students from
Speaker:campus by force. This started with the encampments this summer. We've seen this happen at some
Speaker:of the campuses like York, like University of Alberta. Students are actively being. heavily
Speaker:surveilled and followed on campus simply for like handing out flyers or having silent study-ins,
Speaker:right? Which is a pretty dramatic escalation. Just last week, a student group that we support
Speaker:at the University of Ottawa held a two-day sit-in at the RBC branch on their campus. This is
Speaker:not the first time that they've held a sit-in. It's not the first time that police were called
Speaker:by RBC, but it is the first time that police responded with threats of arrest to these students
Speaker:for. being on their campus and occupying the branch. So the first day students drummed and
Speaker:chanted for two hours before they were forced to actually be completely silent or face arrest
Speaker:by police. On their own campus, they were said, you need to be completely silent or we're going
Speaker:to arrest all of you. And so the next day, the students so beautifully and creatively pivoted
Speaker:to hold a silent study in. And this time they were met with an immediate. threat of arrest
Speaker:by police, despite it being a completely silent protest. And I think this represents an extreme
Speaker:escalation of police response on the UOttawa campus specifically, and it really shows that
Speaker:University of Ottawa administration cares more about protecting corporate interest and they
Speaker:care about their own students. It shows that RBC is silencing student voices and university
Speaker:administration is backing them up. But I think at the same time, students are more determined
Speaker:than ever to kick RBC off campus and definitely won't be backing down anytime soon. And I think
Speaker:for us, that means just having these deep conversations about how risk is changing and how we shift
Speaker:to support students through that. And I'll pass it to Evelyn to maybe speak more on that. Yeah,
Speaker:I think just to build on that, I think what's most noticeable about this is like when we
Speaker:started. We founded three years ago and really honed in on sort of this campus RBC branch
Speaker:strategy about two years ago. And when we started that, a lot of it was the sort of, yeah, taking
Speaker:students through the process of like a lot of engagement and building on tactics and increasing
Speaker:pressure through tactics. And when the concept of sit-ins first came up amongst student groups.
Speaker:It was very much like this is a low-risk action. Like universities will not arrest you on your
Speaker:campus. Like they're not going to do that. If you talk to old school organizers, they're
Speaker:like, yeah, we, we did sit-ins all the time. We did whatever we wanted because the university
Speaker:just wanted us to graduate, be done, and not see a scandal. And I think that that's really
Speaker:shifted in the last few months with the way that like through the encampments of summer,
Speaker:police were just coming onto campuses and in cases like Alberta being incredibly violent,
Speaker:like night one of some of these encampments. And that's just, I think, really emboldened
Speaker:and pushed the line for like what is acceptable and what's not in terms of engaging with student
Speaker:protesters on their own campuses. And I think in a lot of the cases, these universities have
Speaker:their own bylaws that limit how law enforcement can even be on campus. And some of that is
Speaker:just kind of like getting swept under the rug. And yeah, we're seeing universities really
Speaker:say like, you have to tell us how you're gonna protest and where and when, and then we're
Speaker:gonna tell you if that's okay, and then you can, and if you can hold the protest or not.
Speaker:Like that's kind of the attitude that they're taking. Like I think Levi mentioned Western,
Speaker:and I think what was really telling there was they put out this statement saying, no picketing
Speaker:without approval in the middle of an active strike. And it was just, it was, it's just
Speaker:like a wild attempt to really, yeah, push back on some of this. work that's happening. And
Speaker:I think also what we're thinking about is like, there's likely going to be a change in government
Speaker:in the next several months, and that will likely come with even more like emboldening of police
Speaker:suppression of this kind of work. And so just really thinking through for ourselves, like
Speaker:how do we, I think we're really trying to answer this question right now because it feels very
Speaker:new after the summer of like, how do we navigate this? What does this mean? And where do we
Speaker:go from here? We all are. Evelyn, like we all are just sitting here and all the rules have
Speaker:gone out the window, all of them. Like we used to understand that a certain amount of public
Speaker:pressure under a politician would force them to move. We used to think a certain amount
Speaker:of number of people in the streets over and over again would be enough to maybe sway. Cause
Speaker:I, long ago, I think many of us have given up on just presenting facts to people, right?
Speaker:It's like about demonstrating our people power and Although it's disheartening, you know,
Speaker:to hear that all these bylaws that were put into place to give you to secure rights as
Speaker:a student are going out the window and all of these other mechanisms that we've had aren't
Speaker:even working. It also allows it frees people up to not waste their time in certain avenues.
Speaker:when you know there's no point in checking those boxes because the rules have changed, right?
Speaker:It ups, I think, your ability to convince people to risk more. And that's scary, but Evelyn,
Speaker:when you spoke of training people, okay, here, you could, because you gotta walk people in.
Speaker:Some people coming into university, at least this was my experience, they would definitely
Speaker:not do anything without approval. And the first thing that we could do, the most valuable thing
Speaker:was to never ask for permission, you worry about asking for forgiveness, maybe. All right, like
Speaker:just don't ask for permission because if you get permission, then it's what they wanted.
Speaker:That's an avenue they can confine you within, right? That's why they let you in because they
Speaker:know that they can, there's no door out. Go on in, no problem. That's legitimate. That
Speaker:is not legitimate. And so anytime they point you away from something, you know that's actually
Speaker:where you're supposed to be going. Because these are not your teammates in any sort, like not
Speaker:admin, not the cops, not the government. Like they're not, they are there to thwart your
Speaker:efforts. So you always have to imagine like whatever they're trying to get you to do, you
Speaker:should probably be doing the opposite. And like to just get people past that barrier of seeking
Speaker:approval from administrators is a mental hurdle, but it's easier to do when the administrators
Speaker:are not fair. when they have so blatantly taken their mask off and says, fuck you, rules are
Speaker:for you, not for me. Students are like, no, they're not. No, no, the rules are for nobody
Speaker:then. So, but that like, that is a shift all these organizers everywhere are trying to make
Speaker:right now. Like how do we go forward? Because the rules have changed. As an accelerationist
Speaker:sometimes, I feel like that I am that I have been accused of that and I will own that to
Speaker:a degree. There's a bit of relief though that people are seeing the mask off. I hope not
Speaker:every university has to go through the experience of the University of Alberta or McGill to see
Speaker:what's in store for you. Like we can look to South Korea trying to declare martial law and
Speaker:everyone was like, no the fuck you're not. Like that has got to be your response. Like, no,
Speaker:nope, not an inch. Because you know, if Western gets inches and U of T has done similar bylaw
Speaker:changes on where and when, you know, from the encampment, people can congregate and all these
Speaker:new rules, they're all watching each other too, right? Like you guys watch each other, but
Speaker:you still have to build capacity. You can't just be like, oh, well, they did it at McGill,
Speaker:so we're gonna do it. Like you've got to get to that point. But administrators don't. They're
Speaker:gonna be like, oh, Western called the cops? And there was like no backlash then I'm gonna
Speaker:call the cops right like if that's just if that's what we do now Then that's what we do right
Speaker:unless there's such blowback That that is not worth it right and I imagine that's where we're
Speaker:all looking now right to push back against Not just climate change, but the fascism that we're
Speaker:facing You have any advice for other student organizers on how I know you're just trying
Speaker:to explore it, but like maybe if anybody's got advice or you want to comment on the fact that,
Speaker:you know, fascism is now one of our biggest barriers to a free Palestine, to climate justice,
Speaker:to free education, to African liberation. It's, it's, um, it's a tightening, tightening rope
Speaker:there. We are definitely seeing, and I had this conversation maybe with Levi and our other
Speaker:team member, um, Chloe about like, are we closer to winning? Um, do we think that we're closer
Speaker:to winning? And I, that's twofold. I think that we are, I feel that we are closer to winning
Speaker:because of empires response or the state's response to the things that we do. Like we see them
Speaker:tightening the noose around society. We see them like increasingly militarizing police
Speaker:forces, invading student spaces. There's this, definitely this heightened response the little
Speaker:things, quote unquote, that we do. So there's definitely, I think you can see it in a way
Speaker:that this heightened response is a response to the fact that people are gaining power collectively
Speaker:and gaining consciousness. People are seeing who the real enemy is. And I think for students
Speaker:in particular, personally what's given me and some things that I've shared to students one-on-one
Speaker:is that this fight is not a singular fight that. because we are building coalitions of people,
Speaker:because we are collectively doing something together on campuses, not just our own campuses,
Speaker:but campuses across Turtle Island, across the globe, there is an inspiration in the fact
Speaker:that we aren't alone and also understanding our unique position in so-called Canada, understanding
Speaker:the role that students at universities and young people. across the settler colony have and
Speaker:the responsibility we have to each other and then also the responsibility that we have across
Speaker:colonial borders is necessary because then we also relieve ourselves of the pressure of feeling
Speaker:like the weight of the world is on our shoulders that leads to burnout that leads to lots of
Speaker:many like internal rifts within organizing spaces that we feel that we have the weight on our
Speaker:shoulder. But understanding that we exist in a legacy, in a long lineage of people that
Speaker:have been, Evelyn shared sort of the history of the fossil fuel divestment movement, that
Speaker:the history of the fossil fuel divestment movement exists in a longer history of resistance to
Speaker:colonialism, a longer history of resistance to state violence. Like we exist in a lineage
Speaker:of people that have fought and have won. Like the world ending scenarios that we experience
Speaker:now are not new to many communities, to many people. But there's always been resistance
Speaker:to that. And I think sharing that with students and giving them that, knowing that we can win
Speaker:what we need to win, because history proves that we are able to win. And then also living
Speaker:in like the belly of the beast per se, our responsibility is to ensure that we are doing what needs to
Speaker:be done to reduce the harm that's being inflicted abroad. So for example, sometimes we're like,
Speaker:I personally need to stop the weapons industry. or I personally need to stop this genocide
Speaker:or this war. Like there are people on the ground, there's resistance on the ground that's doing
Speaker:that. Our responsibility here is to ensure that arms are not being sent. Our responsibility
Speaker:is to ensure that the financial institutions are not investing money into or financing these
Speaker:destructive industries. Our responsibility here is to ensure that we are doing everything we
Speaker:possibly can together to ensure that no more harm is being inflicted. And that to me, it
Speaker:leaves some of that pressure of feeling the world on your shoulder and the leaves some
Speaker:of the pressure of this needs to be done right now in this timeline because XYZ and that like
Speaker:feeds into urgency culture, feeds into white supremacy, feeds into capitalism. Yeah, I'm
Speaker:getting a little off like sidetracked because I like truly, truly am sort of a nerd for like
Speaker:movement history and knowing that there will be people before us. that have done this, thinking
Speaker:about Fanon and his quote on like, each generation must out of relative obscurity fulfill or betray
Speaker:its mission is something that I use as a guiding light, because this is our mission for our
Speaker:lifetime in this moment. And we need to, wherever we are along the fight, whoever we are with,
Speaker:building together, because we know that scares them. We seeing that happen, we seeing the
Speaker:arrest of. pro-Palestinian organizers, we're seeing the increased surveillance, we're seeing
Speaker:universities being scared shitless and trying to sue its students or taking its students
Speaker:to court. A university that you pay funds to is taking you to court. That's absolute, trying
Speaker:to comprehend that is actually, no words. But we're seeing the response to what we're doing
Speaker:and to me that means it's working. And to me that means we just need to be doing more, educating
Speaker:ourselves. political education is important, understanding, like, and being anti imperialist
Speaker:is important, understanding how capital flows, understanding capitalism, understanding how
Speaker:racial hierarchies are used to gain profit, how racial hierarchies are used to sustain
Speaker:the system as it is that division, what you mentioned in class consciousness, those are
Speaker:sort of things that I think students are increasingly being aware of. And in the last year, sadly,
Speaker:has resulted The last year of genocide, last year in two months of genocide, has created
Speaker:an opportunity for an accelerated consciousness building, and the masks have fallen off. And
Speaker:there's just the damage, the brand damage, to these corporations, to these universities,
Speaker:to these people in power has completely fallen off. And what is left for us to do now is to
Speaker:pick up that mantle and to be building together. Celine, that was pure fire. When you hear that
Speaker:back. You were gonna know that it's pure fire and that every student out there needs to hear
Speaker:that last Well, I marked it when you started talking Five minutes about five minutes. I
Speaker:was like, oh, I'm gonna grab that I'm gonna make it the intro, but it's a little longer
Speaker:than that, but I will make sure I repurpose that clip because I Feel better I get to that
Speaker:place, you know that urgency culture that you're talking about and feeling the weight, even
Speaker:though I talk to hundreds of people that are doing the work, right? And they're all part
Speaker:of organizations and coalitions that are doing the work. But you said a lot with that five
Speaker:minutes, Celine, honestly. Especially the legacy comment. Revolutions are built on the revolutions
Speaker:before them. And I don't think I've ever viewed the fight for climate justice as that same
Speaker:mode of resistance. I should have, I could have, but I didn't see it that way. And it's much
Speaker:more hopeful when it's framed in that way, especially if you have learned of previous struggles and
Speaker:victories. So we try to share as many victories as we can on the show because I do understand
Speaker:that value. And I'm glad Celine reminded me of that legacy and that lineage that we have
Speaker:a duty to and one to create. right, an onus to leave a good one. By the way, I just love
Speaker:that I logged onto your website and many of you are wearing a keffiyeh in your bio. That's
Speaker:like a small choice to take a new headshot and put it up, but it meant everything to see that
Speaker:honestly, because I think you know that. I think that's why you did it. I very, very much appreciate
Speaker:you taking the time to come on the show, but like I tell most of my guests, I more appreciate
Speaker:the work that you're doing every single day. Every single seed that you plant, whether it
Speaker:takes or not, is valuable, and you are definitely doing. the good fight. Please keep it up and
Speaker:please keep us updated on your work. Yeah, it was a great way to start the day. I'm so happy
Speaker:now. I'm so energized and hopeful for the work that we're doing. So thanks for having us,
Speaker:Jessa. Thank you. I think you folks have that effect on people because I am feeling really
Speaker:good. Celine is smiling ear to ear as well. So yes, we will take that as a win and I'm
Speaker:sure the audience enjoyed themselves as well. That is a wrap on another episode of Blueprints
Speaker:of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the
Speaker:status quo, please share our content, and if you have the means, consider becoming a patron.
Speaker:Not only does our support come from the progressive community, so does our content. So reach out
Speaker:to us and let us know what or who we should be amplifying. So until next time, keep disrupting.
