Ceasefire Now What?
Unpacking the ceasefire and our feelings around it isn't easy, so who better to help us than Fatima Saleh and Anna Lippman? These two Palestinian Solidarity Activists have been at the front lines for a ceasefire for 15 months, a Free Palestine even longer. How are they feeling about seeing people return to the north of Gaza, or about Trump's comments about what's next for the region? Its a bit complicated.
While we can feel joy and relief in the moment, both our guests are clear - we need to keep up the pressure on politicians, continue our education and create more disruptions.
Guests:
- Fatima Saleh, Palestinian activist based in Edmonton, AB; and,
- Anna Lippman, organizer with Independent Jewish Voices and Labour for Palestine.
CALLS TO ACTION
- Anna's X thread of GoFundMe Pages for people in Gaza;
- Epicore Delivers Genocide; and,
- #ArmsEmbargoNow!
Related Episodes:
Answering the Call: Labour for Palestine w/Anna Lippman
Disrupting Canada's Arms Trade w/World Beyond War's Rachel Small
Canada's Colonial Imagination w/Tyler Shipley
All of our content is free - made possible by the generous sponsorships of our Patrons. If you would like to support us: Patreon
More Resources:
- The Maple: Trudeau Government Authorized $28.5 Million Of New Military Exports To Israel Since October
- UN Office of High Commission: Israeli Forces Attack West Bank
- Education under attack in the Gaza Strip, as of 8 January 2024 - occupied Palestinian territory | ReliefWeb
- Anna Lippman: Protesting Against Israel’s Genocide of Palestinians Isn’t Antisemitic - The Grind Magazine
Keywords: Palestine, ceasefire, Canada, politics, activism, mental health #cdnpoli, #ArmsEmbargoNow
Transcript
There's no end point and the end point is full and total liberation. And until then we keep
Speaker:moving.
Speaker:Welcome to Blueprints of Disruption. I'm your host, Jess McLean. Those last sounds you just
Speaker:heard were that of Palestinian children making their way back into the north parts of Gaza
Speaker:following a 42-day ceasefire agreement. You also heard Fatima Saleh, an Edmonton-based
Speaker:Palestinian activist who will be joined by Anna Lippmann from Independent Jewish Voices for
Speaker:our next episode. We called both of these formidable people back into our studio to react to that
Speaker:ceasefire announcement, but also to reflect back on how far the movement has come. We take
Speaker:time to remember some of the gains made and the victories won, but not without losing sight
Speaker:of the work ahead. Even after all this time, we're still finding new ways to end the occupation,
Speaker:hold politicians accountable, and solidify our support for the people of Gaza. To that end,
Speaker:our call to action for this episode is in the show notes, where we've put a bunch of ways
Speaker:you can help out right now, including a string of GoFundMe's and local initiatives. So please
Speaker:take a moment to check that out. Now let's get to reintroducing our guests. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker:My name is Fatima Saleh. I am currently on Treaty Six territory here in the Meskwetib-Waskai
Speaker:again. traditional lands of Nehaya, Wapdine, Solone, Nikota, Soto, and Metis. And yeah,
Speaker:I'm happy to be with you. Hey everyone, I'm Anna Lickman, tuning in from Toronto, the traditional
Speaker:home of the Anishinaabe, the Haudenosaunee, and the Huron-Wendat. I'm very happy to be
Speaker:with you all here. I very much appreciate your time, especially considering it's a bit of
Speaker:an emotional one. It's a bit... It's a bit complicated and we are just two days post the beginning
Speaker:of the ceasefire. And I wanted to check in with some people that have spent hundreds of days,
Speaker:460 plus days and more, but fiercely advocating for Palestine because these are the people
Speaker:I first thought of when the announcement of a ceasefire came. It obviously came with trepidation,
Speaker:but I was hopeful for my comrades here and others that are really in the thick of the fight.
Speaker:So we're going to check in with Anna and with Fatima and then we're going to talk about the
Speaker:ceasefire and a little bit, but mostly we're going to take stock and look back a little
Speaker:bit on where we've come as a movement and where we can go. Hopefully this will help people
Speaker:process this moment as well, because I'm having trouble. Um, Fatima, like what did you think
Speaker:when you knew the ceasefire was very close? Honestly, there was such a mix of emotions,
Speaker:like first and foremost, relief. Just relief that there's, you know, the execution order
Speaker:has somewhat been lifted off of this incredibly dense population that has the same population
Speaker:density as New York City. And the fact that there's not going to be, hopefully, inshallah,
Speaker:carpet bombs happening and these targeted, this targeting of healthcare systems and everything
Speaker:going on there, it feels like a state of execution at least for now. And I say that really intentionally
Speaker:because a ceasefire, and you might have seen me tweet this, a ceasefire doesn't mean that
Speaker:this is the end. You know, it means that for right now. the blade has been lifted from the
Speaker:neck. And there is cause for joy in that because at the beginning of all of this, Israel put
Speaker:out some very, and Israel put out very clear, and Netanyahu put out very clear objectives
Speaker:that he wanted to accomplish in Gaza. And for 15 months, the core of the resistance was to
Speaker:just not be erased, to not be pushed completely off the map, to not be completely decimated.
Speaker:And genocide did not start on October 7th. Genocide escalated on October 7th. And genocide is not
Speaker:going to end with this specific ceasefire. We've had ceasefires before. It's going to pause
Speaker:or slow down. And until we all really get into that mindset that we can't take our feet off
Speaker:the gas in structures here in empire where we live. and making sure that we're educating
Speaker:and drawing attention to what's happening in Gaza, but also in the West Bank, but also in
Speaker:places where all of growths are being torched, where people are still being displaced and
Speaker:forcibly dispossessed of their homes in Palestine. It's just, it was a relief mixed with anxiety
Speaker:because this staged plan, it's not very clear what's happening. It doesn't give a lot of
Speaker:details about how this the third stage specifically is going to go and how that's going to what
Speaker:guys is going to look like and so yeah relief and also a lot of Prepedation about what's
Speaker:coming next All valid, you know complete and it Anna for folks who can't see Anna just nodding
Speaker:her head emphatically but and I'm still gonna go to you even though you seem to agree with
Speaker:everything Fatima had to say but I think everyone also had like that personal moment of, you
Speaker:know, where were you and what did it feel like? I mean, there was like, we knew they were in
Speaker:talks for a ceasefire. This wasn't news news, but there was, there seemed to be a moment
Speaker:there where it was sure and we saw celebrations and that felt a little different than anything
Speaker:we'd experienced in a long time. How did you feel?
Speaker:you know, the realization, the joy that like people will stop dying for at least 42 days
Speaker:was just amazing. And then also, you know, trying to kind of stop myself from getting too happy
Speaker:just knowing what Israel does during a ceasefire, how fragile this ceasefire is. how much there
Speaker:is still to go, right? And so I think especially kind of talking to the folks that I've been
Speaker:supporting in Gaza, like when the ceasefire was announced, when they sent me a voicemail,
Speaker:the first voicemail message I got was like, alhamdulillah, I've never been so happy. And
Speaker:it was just so amazing to hear, right? But of course, you know, over the next days, we start
Speaker:thinking like, How are we gonna get this family of 10 out? How are we gonna get them money
Speaker:to rebuild their house if they stay? How are we gonna get the medical attention? Will they
Speaker:be eating tomorrow as they're still alive? All the conditions are still there, right? And
Speaker:so, I said the day it was announced, we celebrate today and we get to work tomorrow, right? Because...
Speaker:The joy that is being felt not only in Gaza, but when the prisoners were released, like
Speaker:90 people reunited with their families, you know, that's nothing small. We have to celebrate
Speaker:that and recognize that. But like Fatima said, you know, like the work doesn't end at a ceasefire.
Speaker:Like this is literally the bare minimum after screaming for 15 months, right? And so this
Speaker:is the floor and not the ceiling, right? And you've maintained that. Many people have maintained
Speaker:that from the beginning of the calls for a ceasefire, right? Because maybe it was Fatima who edited
Speaker:out if I'm wrong. Part of your tweet was when talking about what the ceasefire isn't, it
Speaker:wasn't an end to the occupation or the siege or thousands of prisoners returning to their
Speaker:families. Sorry. Palestinian captives returning to their families. And that was always the
Speaker:work from the very beginning before it escalated into this refocusing on a ceasefire and an
Speaker:arms embargo, which I imagine is still part of the battle. Yeah, for sure. I wanna touch
Speaker:a little bit on what Anna said about celebrations. I think it's so important to celebrate the
Speaker:wins along the way. And the fact that Like I said, Netanyahu had a specific idea of what
Speaker:was going to happen in Gaza and the fact that he could not get there is a cause for celebration.
Speaker:The resistance won. And the resistance to not to just be able to live, to survive, that is
Speaker:a win. That is something we must celebrate 100 percent. And when I saw journalists taking
Speaker:off their flak jackets for the first time and swapping them out for a keffiye, it is so emotional
Speaker:to watch this. You know what I mean? Abu Bakr, a 22 year old journalist who he wants to report
Speaker:on sports. And he has now become a journalist for a genocide. And the fact that he can maybe,
Speaker:you know, and I've seen his tweets, I've corresponded with him and the fact that he's just so excited
Speaker:that this might be a reprieve, yes, we need to celebrate that. But I want to draw it back
Speaker:to these lands on Turtle Island. We celebrate here because our families, again, they're,
Speaker:it's a state of execution. But we have to remember that we effectively in Canada, I don't feel
Speaker:like we got enough done. I don't feel like we got much done. Like you said, there is still
Speaker:an arms embargo that needs to be achieved on these lands. And this government refuses, absolutely
Speaker:refuses to hear the screams of. there are people from coast to coast to coast that have been
Speaker:out in the streets every single week for 15 months. It's absolutely ridiculous that people
Speaker:who are disrupting Christopher Ulyan's announcement to run for prime minister, I know, are being
Speaker:shot down as if they don't have a right to free speech. So it's just the fact, we just have
Speaker:to remember that imperialism is here too, and to educate ourselves. and our own community
Speaker:specifically on how it's connected here. They're never going to acknowledge it because they
Speaker:know that it's occurring here as well. They're not going to say, oh yeah, Palestine needs
Speaker:to be free. Like they keep pushing these talking points about a two-state solution. You don't
Speaker:even recognize one of the states. How are you pushing this talking point that makes absolutely
Speaker:no sense? It's just to evade the actual issue at hand, the fact that you continue to arm
Speaker:this genocidal entity. and lie about it because we know the number say 28.5 million in 2023
Speaker:or whatever it was but that's what's on that's what's regulated what's going out that's unregulated
Speaker:it's really concerning to me that we don't have that transparency from this government we don't
Speaker:know how much arms have really gone through how much components have really gone through
Speaker:and how much they're actually standing to make from it it's really concerning am i wrong to
Speaker:think that we were possibly already at a point of transition in the movement, like a need
Speaker:to reflect back and maybe shift tactics of sorts, or because the way you described, like keep
Speaker:our foot on that pedal. But any turns, can we look back and see how we've shifted tactically?
Speaker:It's important to recognize that where we are today, in January 2025 is so different than
Speaker:where we were January 2022, right? Like the amount of knowledge that the average person
Speaker:now has on what is going on in Palestine has vastly changed around the globe and here in
Speaker:Canada and the United States, right? And so I think it's really important that we don't
Speaker:turn back from this moment. Like there can't be any going back to a time where people say,
Speaker:Oh, I don't know what's happening. I am not aware. Right? Like this is the moment where
Speaker:we have to double down in this, at least 42 days of You know, I like what you said, like
Speaker:this state of execution, right? And this is when we really need to be pushing for things
Speaker:like a two-way arms embargo, actual government sanctions on Israel, right? And the concrete
Speaker:steps that Canada needs to take to commit to justice and the basic international relations
Speaker:that they have with... pretty much every other country in the world. Canada has put sanctions
Speaker:on most war criminal countries, right? And we need to continue to challenge this Palestine
Speaker:exception, right? It's no longer acceptable knowing what we know now. Yeah. You know, what
Speaker:we were able to talk about online, in person, as we advocate with different... groups, organizations,
Speaker:politicians, whatever it may be, is very different from October 6th to now. It is incredibly,
Speaker:just a different story. I remember just educating two years ago on Kifi and what it meant and
Speaker:the fact that it's not a terrorist symbol because this is the actual history behind it. And explaining
Speaker:to people, no, there is a place called Palestine. No, I'm not from Pakistan. It's a different
Speaker:thing. And now... like Anna said, nobody can claim to not know. You can't unsee what you've
Speaker:seen. You can't unhear what you've heard. This has been live streamed to the world for the
Speaker:last 15 months. And I think it's really interesting to look at specifically resistance in Palestine
Speaker:and how perception to that resistance may have changed for a lot of people. And I think that,
Speaker:I was just saying this to somebody the other day, I find it so interesting that couple of
Speaker:years ago, you could not say Hamas to anybody because nobody understood it. Nobody knew it.
Speaker:Nobody understood what resistance means. Like decolonization is not going to be pretty. And
Speaker:now you can talk about it in a, in a way to explain, like, what did you expect to happen?
Speaker:What did you expect to happen in the sense of, you know, Gaza was unlivable at 2020. There
Speaker:was not enough water. There was not enough food. never mind what it looks like now, but resistance
Speaker:is the only way out of this. You know, somebody said to me, the only way out of this is international
Speaker:law. And I said, no, they didn't. Not now. They can't say that now. No, I mean, and that's
Speaker:the whole point is you, it's never, it's going to be, that has a place. You know what I mean?
Speaker:The ICJ rulings, it has a place, sure. But the only thing that's going to a population from
Speaker:being completely eradicated is resistance to that, resistance to colonialism, resistance
Speaker:to imperialism. What else do you expect? And it's one of the Palestinian the wabbit is the
Speaker:right to armed resistance because you know if somebody is carpet bombing you, how do you
Speaker:not resist that? So I think it's then till now and where we've come in the last 15 months
Speaker:is the narrative has completely shifted. It's been before where you had to, you know, claw
Speaker:your way into a conversation on Palestine. And now it's very different because it has been
Speaker:live streamed to the world. And I don't think Israel was banking on how, how much perception
Speaker:of the Israeli state has changed. In terms of like knowledge and people have seen and heard
Speaker:a lot. That goes for politicians too, right? You're at a different starting point with the
Speaker:powerful. You no longer need, or at least feel the need or obligation to book a meeting and
Speaker:explain the situation in Palestine and, you know, trauma dump on them in order to get them
Speaker:to come along. It's like there's a certain expectation now on politicians and a threshold, and people
Speaker:are not going to take any shit on that front. I think like the public in general has come
Speaker:along. Just a pause there for the people who disrupted freelance. launch. I cannot explain
Speaker:the joy that you've brought me in the past two days. I don't, I have a personal beef with
Speaker:that MP. It goes, it's a boring story, but watching her whole political career flounder because
Speaker:of those folks that infiltrated her launch in that gym, that school gym, which looked pathetic
Speaker:to begin with, those seemingly small actions, which were well coordinated. folks, it's a
Speaker:lot of organizers listening and activists who are listening. That staged interruption, I
Speaker:mean, she just, the images that people were able to pull out of there, I hope that haunts
Speaker:politicians for a long, long time. Even when they think we've forgotten about it or they
Speaker:can move on to a leadership race, that we're not still going to be pestering them at every
Speaker:turn. So yeah, no, like I still have such smiles because it's just, you know. Not that I have
Speaker:a front runner for the liberals. I'm not cheering for them in any way, but just thank you. You
Speaker:could just tell that she was holding back that I'm speaking line. Like Kamala's line? Yeah,
Speaker:and I think it's really important to note that the whole world really, whether it's like fully
Speaker:true or not, or there's different elements that came into play, but I think the whole world
Speaker:understands that when Kamala did not back... on arms embargo, it truly affected her campaign.
Speaker:And we have to know that they're looking at that. They're seeing that. People like Christa
Speaker:Freeland and others, they understand that is going to be a thing. How that plays out politically
Speaker:within the landscape of Canada, I don't know. But you have to know that they've seen it.
Speaker:Our movement is so much more powerful. It's so much more powerful. It has a voice. And
Speaker:it's always had a voice, I think, but specifically on these lands. how much the narrative has
Speaker:shifted and it's moved forward in a way that we can now organize from power. And I think
Speaker:never before in Canada has Palestine been a voting issue, you know? So it's just incredible.
Speaker:Globally too, right? More and more countries in the past year have recognized Palestine.
Speaker:Why Ireland wasn't already on that list? Like as I'm going through it, it's, you know, Spain,
Speaker:Norway, Jamaica, Slovenia. Trinidad and Tobago, Bahamas and Barbados, just a shout out. But
Speaker:then Ireland, I was like, why are they just coming around? But either way, it's part of
Speaker:that larger signal that the whole global perspective on the, on apartheid, on the occupation and
Speaker:just the mask, masks are falling off everywhere. I mean, that does make our job easier as disruptors,
Speaker:right, to know our enemies more closely. Because Fatima, you mentioned- we're able to say Hamas,
Speaker:we're able to talk about armed resistance and other things, but we're also confronted with
Speaker:an unprecedented level of vitriol. Things that would have made people just look like maniacal
Speaker:and foolish are now almost like the commonplace in the comments. And I think that that's a
Speaker:mask off. You have even liberal supporters just saying, I hope Israel gets all the land. And
Speaker:you're just like, okay, well, it's very effective to know where your enemies lie. Were you surprised
Speaker:in the past year by the callousness of our politicians? Did you think they could be swayed at the beginning?
Speaker:No, I wasn't surprised at all. I think if you asked any Palestinian, you're gonna get the
Speaker:same answer. It's the bare minimum, the bar is on the floor. But anytime you do get any
Speaker:modicum of support, you're like, that's kind of shocking, that's never happened before.
Speaker:So it's like a double-edged sword where you're like, okay, this is obviously something you
Speaker:should be supporting because it's just so clear. But at the same time, because it's never happened
Speaker:before, where we've had true advocates were absolutely like thrilled. You know, as much
Speaker:as they're not even doing as much as they should be. It's just, I think from my perspective,
Speaker:we've never had that before. Like I've been in, I'm 40. I've never seen it before. I've
Speaker:never seen a watermelon pin in the legislature. Yeah, a non-Arab non-Muslim like Heather McPherson,
Speaker:who you know is amazing, shout out to her. But at the same time, there's so much work to be
Speaker:done. Like I call her all the time and I'm like, listen, this is how, I don't like how this
Speaker:was framed or I don't like that, you know what I mean? We're having those conversations and
Speaker:we never had that path before to actually sit and have these conversations. But I think it's
Speaker:not just that we've never had the path before, it's activists specifically speaking to politicians
Speaker:where it's not organizations, it's not groups that are worried about whether or not it's
Speaker:their charitable status or whatever it might be. Like real people. on the ground who are
Speaker:saying, this is what we see, we're also your constituents, this is what more people are
Speaker:seeing. And then having this groundswell of support through these rallies, it sucks that
Speaker:we've had to have them for this long, it sucks the reason for it. But if there's no silver
Speaker:lining to genocide, but if there is any positive to come out of this, it's the connections that
Speaker:have been made. And the fact that we all understand as we look at a... a pro-Palestine rally, it
Speaker:doesn't look like one thing. It doesn't look like Muslim Arabs. There's so many different
Speaker:people there, every ethnicity, every race, every gender, every sexual orientation, everybody
Speaker:is there. And it's connecting everybody. And then also making sure that as we're connecting
Speaker:people, as we were having these conversations to understand free Palestine is not just about
Speaker:Palestine. It really is a global anti-imperial, anti-empire movement. So, We have to connect
Speaker:it to Haiti, to Sudan, to all of the other, to Kashmir, to all of the, everything else
Speaker:is Congo. What's going on in the world? I think that's what makes these politicians and empire
Speaker:fearful, is they see what could be through these sustained protests and through the sustained
Speaker:activism. If Palestine is free, who's next? Like, we're saying it. And we're truly thinking
Speaker:like, who is next? In what world is imperialism gonna be okay or colonization of any people
Speaker:going to be okay? Because you're gonna see this pushback and this absolute, like we're not
Speaker:gonna take it anymore. It's not gonna happen. Anna, did you wanna add to that? Yeah, I mean,
Speaker:I totally agree. And I think it goes back to what Fatima was saying before we started recording,
Speaker:right? Like imperialism. and colonialism makes great bedfellows, right? And when Canada sees
Speaker:what's happening to its bestie Israel, it makes them nervous, right? Because we have a lot
Speaker:of reckoning to do with our own history of genocide, of imperialism, of colonialism, right? I think
Speaker:politicians understand that this is a global movement and... we're coming for them next,
Speaker:right? I think in a lot of ways, they're scared. You know, I have the terrible, terrible luck
Speaker:of having my MP be Christia Freeland, right? And God knows she has never met with a pro-Palestine
Speaker:constituent, right? But we've come to her. She's seen us in the street. She hasn't go to her
Speaker:office. We came to the Boys and Girls Club, right? Like, so... They feel the pressure,
Speaker:right? And for folks who can't be moved from their humanity and morality, may they be moved
Speaker:by their political aspirations and the demands of their constituents, you know? Or may they
Speaker:fall. A lot of them we could just do without totally. It's almost, it's a filter, right?
Speaker:needs to do all that work bringing those folks along just to save their political careers,
Speaker:just for them to likely repeat this down the road. But I think I asked the audience, our
Speaker:audience, if they were to be able to talk to Palestinian solidarity activists following
Speaker:the ceasefire, what would they ask them? And mostly focused on upcoming elections. It's
Speaker:like that moment in time where people feel like an extra bit of political power or not, and
Speaker:they want to know what to do with it. Is their allies or, you know, should they be more focused
Speaker:on holding folks accountable both? How are you folks looking at these regime changes, right?
Speaker:There's a liberal leadership race, if that matters to anybody. It's a point of interjection, as
Speaker:we've seen with freelance disruption. It's a- possibly a federal election. A lot of our audience
Speaker:is in Ontario and there was a possible election there provincially. So any advice for folks
Speaker:on how to utilize campaign times or election times as a pressure point? Yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker:refer to what Nora Aracat said when she was in Edmonton. And I got a very brief chance
Speaker:to talk to her. before her talk, but she really honed in on an aspect that I have been kind
Speaker:of moving forward with since that conversation. And she said, it's time to organize from power.
Speaker:It's really time to see where we can move forward and how we can move forward and continue to
Speaker:organize from power. So no matter what we're going to be principled, we're going to stick
Speaker:with the Tho'abath, You know what I mean? We're going to make sure that those principles move
Speaker:forward. But at the same time, somebody like me knows that Palestine or anybody's freedom
Speaker:is not coming through voting blocks. It's not coming through international law. It's not
Speaker:coming through these structures that are deeply rooted in white supremacy. At the same time,
Speaker:we need to organize from power. We have, like you said, a voice. Now the Palestinian solidarity
Speaker:movement is a voting issue. All of it needs to be brought forward. And what happened at
Speaker:Christa Freeland's office needs to continue to happen, in my opinion. We need to continue
Speaker:to take those hard questions to the people in power or the people who seek power and make
Speaker:sure that they know that we're going to be there and we're going to hold them to account. We're
Speaker:going to hold their feet to the fire and make sure they understand that their policy decisions
Speaker:are going to have ramifications. It's not just a fringe group of Arab Palestinians and anti-Zionist
Speaker:wider support now that we can actually, it feels like for the first time, organize from power
Speaker:and really kind of bring forward a voice and say, we are not going to accept this from you.
Speaker:And unless you do ABC, you're not getting our vote. This is kind of, this is where we're
Speaker:at right now when it comes to these, these institutions to be like, I don't really have much faith
Speaker:in any liberal leadership and I would probably disrupt any liberal event that was happening
Speaker:here because you are complicit in the genocide of my people. And at the same time, this is
Speaker:what we want. Yeah, you don't have to ask nicely. There's no rule that says you have to ask nicely.
Speaker:And I think it'd be impossible to not have Palestine and our response to it be an election issue
Speaker:if it haunts them on the campaign trail. If it's, you know, the backdrop to all of their
Speaker:pressers, it's, you know, it's not going to come from asking nicely or try to meet with
Speaker:these folks. And I think I'm grateful that folks have come around to that point. I think at
Speaker:this point we're better equipped. You mentioned having better connections with more people
Speaker:and far more defiant in our approach to getting what we want. And yeah, the reaffirmation of
Speaker:resistance. I mean, just today the video circulating of resistance fighters lined up and media,
Speaker:one of the journalists in Gaza is saying, you know, see Benjamin Netanyahu said he killed
Speaker:all these people. He destroyed the resistance. Here they are here, you know, and everyone
Speaker:is just sharing this and liking this and that would have been completely unheard of. Before
Speaker:October 7th and even in the days after, like so much work has been done to get to that point
Speaker:and to not lose a step. because of October 7th, you know, not to be able to have to pull back
Speaker:that statement that armed resistance is still in fact a right, but maybe not under a ceasefire,
Speaker:right? That's when it becomes a little more complicated, but we're not here to unpack that.
Speaker:I'm not springing that on you. But I did mention before we started hitting record, I was going
Speaker:to ask you about, we normally do Canadian content, but it is hard to ignore the elephant in the
Speaker:room. And that's not very nice to elephants. Donald Trump was interviewed in the Oval Office
Speaker:yesterday, which was a horrible day for a lot of activists still processing this, what's
Speaker:happening here. But someone was pressing him on Gaza. I'd like to know who that was, like
Speaker:kudos. They tried to get answers out of them. Can I play the clip for you? It's hard to hear,
Speaker:honestly, just kind of a warning. He's very cold, as the man is. But, you know, he's asked...
Speaker:First he's asked about the ceasefire holding, and then he's asked about what you talked about,
Speaker:Fatima, in terms of what will Gaza look like. ..that you can keep the ceasefire in Gaza and
Speaker:conclude the three phases of this deal. I'm not confident. This is not our war. It's their
Speaker:war, but... Apologize. I'm not confident, but I think they're very weakened on the other
Speaker:side. Do you support the Tuesday... Gaza, boy. I looked at a picture of Gaza. Gaza is like
Speaker:a massive demolition site. That place is, it's really got to be rebuilt in a different way.
Speaker:Are you meant to help in rebuilding Gaza? I might. You know Gaza is interesting. It's a
Speaker:phenomenal location. On the sea. best weather. You know, everything's good. It's like some
Speaker:beautiful things could be done with it, but it's very interesting. But some fantastic things
Speaker:could be done with Gaza. How do you see the future in governance for Gaza? Well, it depends.
Speaker:I can't imagine you could have, well, you certainly can't have the people that were there. Most
Speaker:of them are dead. Sorry if you hadn't heard that. I don't know. It still makes me really...
Speaker:angry listening to that he's speaking about Gaza like a perspective development site for
Speaker:vacation homes. It's hard not to even, you know, people who can go watch the video, I'll link
Speaker:it in the show notes, even the way he's just pondering, it seems it's so nonchalant to yeah,
Speaker:like, yeah, what could we do with that demolition site now that it's empty? And you know, this
Speaker:goes back to the very first calls of activists, Palestinian solidarity activists everywhere,
Speaker:that this was all about taking land. It was never about clearing Hamas or retribution or
Speaker:hostages. It was always, always about acquiring more of Palestine and turning it into Mar-a-Lago
Speaker:is what it sounds like now. It really does sound like exactly what we've been talking about
Speaker:is settler colonialism. It's not about just erasing a people, but also always expanding,
Speaker:always gaining more land, always gaining more resources. And we know Gaza's geopolitical
Speaker:location, like the actual location of Gaza, is so important to this imperial core. And
Speaker:so from the beginning, you know, we've been saying in all palestines, I think, no, that
Speaker:this is not about Hamas. Hamas was in 1987 and it's been happening since before that. So it's
Speaker:not about Hamas, it's not about October 7th. It's always been about the land. it's always
Speaker:been about acquiring more and more and more because it's never enough for the settler colony.
Speaker:It's never enough, same with these lands. It's never enough. There's always trying to take
Speaker:more and more and more. And you just hear in his comments, the complete dehumanization of
Speaker:Palestinians because he does not even speak about the 2 million people that are there.
Speaker:He does not even acknowledge that there is a group of people living on this land. He's looking
Speaker:at it. you know, just like the far right in Israel does. Like they were going on those
Speaker:boat tours, if you remember. They were like taking boat tours to see like, this is going
Speaker:to be your new home. We're gonna build a settlement here and this is what it's gonna look like
Speaker:and look at these gorgeous beaches. And it's just about the fact that it's that entitlement
Speaker:to think that you just, it's all yours. And where are these people gonna go? And there
Speaker:was talk a few months ago, I can't remember how many months ago about we're going to create
Speaker:four camps in the Golan Heights or wherever it was in Egypt, four camps and there's going
Speaker:to be 500,000 people per camp and that way Gaza will be fully empty. And there's talking about
Speaker:this like it's a completely normal thing and it is for imperialism. Exactly, it is normal
Speaker:for them. This is the norm. So as Indigenous people to the land you're like What do you
Speaker:mean you're going to just come in? It always reminds me of the Al-Qurt family. And Jacob
Speaker:always, I always come back to that where I'm like, for him, it's just a foregone conclusion.
Speaker:You know, an imperialist and colonialist, it's just a foregone conclusion. At some point,
Speaker:this is going to happen. And then you have the people that are there going, what do you mean?
Speaker:You can't just take this. And that's at the core of this. So. It doesn't matter to these
Speaker:structures how many people get slaughtered, in what way they get slaughtered, if they're
Speaker:children. The fact that Gaza is 50% under the age of 18 years old. None of these statistics
Speaker:matter. It's going to, they're going to continue to pull these things because they've done it
Speaker:before. And we would be remiss not to talk about what's happening right now in the West Bank.
Speaker:And the fact that the day after a ceasefire, Israel decides to name a new operation in the
Speaker:West Bank, Operation Iron Wall. and name terrorists, we have to get control of the terrorism that's
Speaker:happening in the West Bank. And I have
Speaker:an activist friend here of mine who was originally born and raised in Palestine, lives here and
Speaker:has his cousin was in the video with the child that was sniped in the West Bank in Jenin.
Speaker:And he was celebrating yesterday. And very excited about the ceasefire and it just shifts because
Speaker:if everybody's eyes are off of Gaza right now because of the ceasefire, then we have to understand
Speaker:that it's all of Palestine that needs to, there needs to be a cessation to occupation. There
Speaker:needs to be a cessation to apartheid. We need to get to an idea where people can live freely
Speaker:on this land without and with equal rights. And until empire comes to that. which I don't
Speaker:think they ever will, we have to, you know, you can't, with the ceasefire specifically
Speaker:and talking about how like, you know, resistance groups, they need to cease as well, does that
Speaker:not include the West Bank then? Because if Netanyahu is doing it and doing a ceasefire, which they
Speaker:haven't, they've already violated it in Gaza specifically, in Rafah, what does it mean?
Speaker:It doesn't mean anything. Are you just, did you just put it out because the inauguration?
Speaker:Did you just put it out there? and sign these things to get people to celebrate. People in
Speaker:Gaza 100% deserve to celebrate. But outside, in the outside world, I hear conversations
Speaker:about, okay, well, what's next? What do you mean what's next? We're still in this fight.
Speaker:We haven't moved on to another phase. We're all still in the same place we were yesterday
Speaker:because nothing has effectively ended when you think about Palestine as a whole, which we
Speaker:have to because it's a Zionist narrative to continue to separate the West Bank from Gaza.
Speaker:and to continue to separate Palestinians that have been forcibly displaced out of the land
Speaker:from Palestinians in the land. We have to look at it as one entity because it's never going
Speaker:to be free until it's all free. And I know that just sounds like I'm spouting off these pretty
Speaker:lines, but it's so true. It's so true that, you know, it stops in one spot and it picks
Speaker:up in another. You have 90 prisoners released, or sorry, 90 captives released, and some of
Speaker:whom are as young as 12 years old. But at the same time, there's administrative detention
Speaker:that's still taking in the same amount, if not more, without charge or trial for God knows
Speaker:how many months. So like, are we presenting a full narrative of what is happening? Because
Speaker:how many more are going to be, and even the ones that have been released, those were all
Speaker:re-abducted. A lot of them originally were re-abducted and now they're getting released. So inshallah
Speaker:they don't get re-abducted, inshallah this is actually a step forward. But I can't help as
Speaker:a Palestinian to be like, okay, you can't make deals with another entity that has never kept
Speaker:its word and is never to be trusted. It's hard. This moment is really difficult. Yeah, because
Speaker:I'm going through my head. I don't want to ask this question, but is there not then danger
Speaker:in celebrating? That sounds so awful, but... you know, you have allies on the sidelines,
Speaker:right, who maybe don't fully understand the complexities of a ceasefire and whatnot. And
Speaker:if they see celebrating, will they come back? Will they still feel the urgency that we need
Speaker:them to have? But you don't want to deny anybody that breath or the acknowledgement that the
Speaker:situation on the ground in Gaza, it's night and day compared to the end of the world. or
Speaker:compared to the carpet bombing and those just huge, huge bombs going off all the time. So
Speaker:yeah, it's so complicated because yeah, you have, there has to be balance though. Folks
Speaker:needed that breath, even if it was just to, okay, got to keep going. You know, that deep
Speaker:breath, that second wind, third or fourth wind at this point, right? Yeah. I just feel like
Speaker:this is where education happens. I know a lot of people in the movement now that have just
Speaker:learned about it and are just starting. And I feel like this is part of that process. Two
Speaker:things can be true at the same time. We can celebrate and still be working. We can, people
Speaker:in Gaza deserve to celebrate at the same time as they're going back to the North and they're
Speaker:finding bodies on the ground, decomposed bodies on the ground. They're finding their homes
Speaker:on the floor. Two things can be true at once. I know that they are happy that... there is
Speaker:a ceasefire and I also know that they are completely scrambling for like Anna said, food. What are
Speaker:we doing next? How are we rebuilding? How are we gonna get, like the first thing is going
Speaker:to be getting some sort of actual healthcare system going and not just field hospitals and
Speaker:you know, and the second thing is going to be trying to get schools back, we know that Gaza's
Speaker:population is so entrenched in knowledge and they want to learn and they are some of the
Speaker:most literate, like some of the most educated people on earth. I think their PhD or something
Speaker:like they have the highest concentration of doctors or PhDs in the world. And, you know,
Speaker:a huge loss, a huge loss was Dr. Rafat Al-Adid, Allah Yash'hamu. It's just a huge loss because,
Speaker:you know, as much as he did in that context of educating Gaza, of educating the world about
Speaker:Gaza, it's like, it's difficult. So I think that people... To answer your question, people,
Speaker:allies that are looking at this from the outside, I think this is education time to understand
Speaker:that yeah, this happens. We've seen ceasefires before, we've seen them violated before, we've
Speaker:seen the continuation of occupation and more land grabs and more ethnic cleansing through
Speaker:ceasefires. And like what people have said it multiple times, there was a ceasefire on October
Speaker:6th and then you had articles and articles and articles of, you know, people being killed
Speaker:in the West Bank or people being killed in Gaza or water being, it's just a structure. And
Speaker:it's like you have to understand that it doesn't end with this win. You know, there's no end
Speaker:point and the end point is full and total liberation. And until then, we keep moving. To our to our
Speaker:US comrades who are facing a regime change there and wondering what they should be doing. But
Speaker:also, you mentioned supporting folks in Gaza, like directly. Perhaps there's a way for listeners
Speaker:to be able to do that on top of, you know, we've talked about pressuring politicians and attending
Speaker:rallies and disrupting things, but what haven't we talked about in terms of ways to support
Speaker:people in Gaza? There is a lot of, you know, misplaced hubris within colonial and white
Speaker:supremacist structures and people like Trump and people like Netanyahu. They talk as if
Speaker:they're so certain that, you know, what they're gonna do is gonna succeed, right? And we've
Speaker:seen, you know, these statements over the past 15 months about what they're gonna accomplish
Speaker:in Gaza against what they have accomplished, which is awful and terrible, but also far from
Speaker:what they claimed, right? And so I think it's important to recognize that, you know, Resistance
Speaker:takes so many forms and there are so many ways that the people of Palestine are resisting
Speaker:and all of them are so beautiful and even one of those ways is taking joy, right? Is taking
Speaker:these moments to celebrate and I don't think Israelis hate anything more than seeing joy
Speaker:in Palestinian lives, which is why they literally went to the families before the exchange and
Speaker:told them like, no celebrations, right? But you know, there's so many ways that people
Speaker:in Palestine continue to resist, whether it's through education, whether it's through this
Speaker:rebuilding, whether it's through just like, you know, getting to watch report on play football,
Speaker:you know? Um, and, and so that I think is, is the right and the will of Palestinians. And
Speaker:it's not on, on allies to question that or take that away. Right. And it also doesn't mean
Speaker:that we as allies have the opportunity or the same. kind of social location identity that
Speaker:we can take a break when Palestinians in Gaza do. Because our situation is very different.
Speaker:Our role here is to continue to support that resistance, whether it be children throwing
Speaker:rocks or whether it be little girls becoming doctors. And so I will plug. You know, there's
Speaker:so many GoFundMe's out right now. Every single Gozin pretty much has a GoFundMe, right? And
Speaker:people have been donating, but that need is still there, right? And even as the bombs stop,
Speaker:like, people, if they can, are going back to their homes to collect their rubble. And so...
Speaker:There needs to be rebuilding. People want to continue their education. People want to receive
Speaker:the healthcare that they have been deprived of for 15 months, right? And so the need is
Speaker:so great. And even on Al Jazeera this morning, I'm watching aid trucks get in and people just
Speaker:run for this aid and still it's not enough for the need. massive population of Gaza, right?
Speaker:If everyone listening donated $10, $20 to like three gold funmies, that material support is
Speaker:really what's going to make the difference in people's immediate lives right now. And more
Speaker:than just, you know, being able to buy water, being able to buy, you know, maybe some flour
Speaker:that doesn't have bugs in it. knowing that people still care, that people are still with you,
Speaker:that people are still watching. This is what Palestinians and Palestine tell me all the
Speaker:time, right? We want to know that people are with us. And so it's important to not let our
Speaker:messages of support, our financial support, our activism wane. We have to keep it up because
Speaker:the people of Gaza need it more. than ever right now, right? As they have that ability to breathe
Speaker:and deal with everything they've been holding for the past 15 months, like we as the allied
Speaker:global community, myself as a white Jewish woman, this is our responsibility to hold and support
Speaker:the people that have risked so much to show the world what true smooth means, you know?
Speaker:Fatima, do you want to add anything in terms of moments of resistance or just avenues that
Speaker:you want to give a shout out to in the way that Anna did, folks doing good work that you can
Speaker:encourage? Yeah. Everything Anna said, 100%. And also- Ditto. Yeah. And also, you know,
Speaker:here in Edmonton, we've been doing a campaign called Epcor Delivers Genocide. And Epcor is
Speaker:our water provider here in Edmonton. They're the only water provider in Edmonton. and they
Speaker:have sourced these AMI meters from a company called the ARAD group that is on stolen land
Speaker:in the West Bank. And so if people want to learn more about that, our team, incredible people,
Speaker:not me specifically, I'm part of the team, but I don't do as much as they do, they're incredible.
Speaker:So shout out to the team at Epcor Delivers Genocide. They have submitted a report to the UN with
Speaker:Francesca Albanese and If you want to read the report, if you want to learn more about this,
Speaker:it's Epco But basically every home in Edmonton is being forced to change into these AMI meters
Speaker:that literally say Made in Israel right on them. It's a lot of stress for Palestinian families
Speaker:who, you know, to have something that says Made in Israel in your home, and there's no other
Speaker:option. And the only other option that they have given is American-made meters, but you
Speaker:have to pay to opt out of these AMI meters. So basically Palestinian families are being
Speaker:forced to pay to boycott an Israeli made meter. And as Anna said, $10 is making a difference
Speaker:in Gaza right now. So if I'm to pay $25 a month to opt out of this like horrible failure of
Speaker:sourcing these meters on EPCOR's part from... apartheid land and from, you know, stolen land
Speaker:in the West Bank, it's these apartheid complicit companies and water apartheid complicit specifically.
Speaker:In what world is that ethical? And it violates your own ethical standards. So please learn
Speaker:more about that campaign because they're doing a lot of good work on it. And basically pay
Speaker:attention. I think outside of the mutual aid, outside of continuing to disrupt, outside of
Speaker:all of that, learn. as much as possible educate yourself, pay attention. Pay attention to who
Speaker:is complicit in the death and genocide of Palestinian people and how we can push against that from
Speaker:here. Because there's a lot of ways we can push against it from here. We can push against it
Speaker:as we've seen over the past 15 months with disrupting arm shipments, with disrupting Indigo and their
Speaker:complicity with Heather Raisman and the Hesseg Fund. We can disrupt it with trying to get
Speaker:all of these charitable status, awful funds that are also causing more land grabs and more
Speaker:ethnic cleansing in Palestine, defunded and not defunded, but at least losing their charitable
Speaker:status and kind of making people understand what is happening through their own tax dollars.
Speaker:You know, look at your financial institutions, look at Scotiabank and how they're still very
Speaker:complicit, all the financial institutions are complicit, but some more than others. And then
Speaker:take a look at the wins that we've achieved over as a movement over the last 15 months
Speaker:with having Elbit take away 50% of their investments and keep pushing for those things. And I think
Speaker:the more that we identify what needs to be pushed back against from here, from Turtle Island,
Speaker:I think that's what we need to focus on, how we can make changes here that not only benefit
Speaker:Palestinians in Palestine. that also push back against colonial structures everywhere. Just
Speaker:making a note there, I'm gonna link in the show notes a few of those victories. So folks can
Speaker:read about the indigo stores closing and some of the charitable status is already being removed
Speaker:just to kind of give credence to your answer there. But I love your example, your local
Speaker:example of Epcor delivers genocide. Because to me that says to all of the companies out
Speaker:there, there is nobody off limits. If you thought folks were just gonna focus on arms manufacturers
Speaker:and adjacent, you were wrong. Water meters is on the list. Books, bookstores are on the list.
Speaker:It's endless. Like people are really doing the digging that's needed to eat away at the Zion
Speaker:estate bit by bit. right? Company by company. And to hear those local examples too, it just,
Speaker:it must inspire, it inspires me, it must inspire the audience too, to know that so many angles
Speaker:are being explored. Like you said, legal, disruptive, educational, it's endless. It's endless. I
Speaker:try to tell as many of these stories as possible, but I, I know I'm missing some too. Like, so
Speaker:if people out there have any more of these stories of resistance, please always send them my way.
Speaker:I would love to amplify. anything like that. So Fatima, for sure I'm gonna link people to
Speaker:that and boost it as much as I can. As I do all the work that I see from you folks, I'm
Speaker:so grateful for you taking time to unpack this with me. Quite often it's selfish. I have the
Speaker:need to better understand something or sometimes even feel validated to hear you say it's okay
Speaker:to celebrate. It's also okay to not know where we're going at the moment but to know that
Speaker:we have to keep going and all of that. So... I very much appreciate that and the work that
Speaker:you do on the ground. Thank you for joining us again. Let's wrap up this episode of Blueprints
Speaker:of Disruption with more sounds of Palestinians returning to the north of Gaza and a reminder
Speaker:that the work is still not done. Check out the show notes for ways that you can take action
Speaker:right now. Until next time, keep disrupting.
