Answering the Call: The West Bank
In our second interview with Labour activist Anna Lippman, we get to hear all about her recent experience volunteering as a protective presence in the West Bank, Palestine. With villages under constant harassment and attacks by both the IDF and Israeli settlers, a call went out to allies to travel to the West Bank, stay with families and use their presence as a deterrent for more unchecked colonial violence. Anna again, answered that call.
She talks about using her 'good passport' and Jewishness to first gain access to places in Palestine her comrades only dream of returning to, and then to protect farming families from being run off their land.
If you missed our first episode with Anna - you can get it here: https://pod.fo/e/214c7d
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Transcript
Greetings, friends. My name is Jess McLean, and I'm here to provide you with some blueprints
Speaker:of disruption. This weekly podcast is dedicated to amplifying the work of activists, examining
Speaker:power structures, and sharing the success stories from the grassroots. Through these discussions,
Speaker:we hope to provide folks with the tools and the inspiration they need to start to dismantle
Speaker:capitalism, decolonize our spaces, and bring about the political revolution that we know
Speaker:we need. This episode was recorded just over a month ago and we haven't had a chance to
Speaker:release it, but it is just as relevant today as the day it was recorded. We spoke to Anna
Speaker:Lippmann about Labor for Palestine and their work organizing and disrupting alongside other
Speaker:organizations. I won't give too much away, but since that recording, Anna traveled to the
Speaker:West Bank and is joining us in the studio tomorrow to share their experiences. That episode will
Speaker:be out next week, but until then, let's tune in and listen to this important conversation.
Speaker:Welcome. Anna, can you introduce yourself to the audience, please? My name is Anna Lippmann.
Speaker:I'm a rank and file member of QP3903 at York University, and I'm a member of the coordinating
Speaker:committee of Labor for Palestine. I didn't know you were QP3903. That's where I cut my teeth
Speaker:organizing for the first time over at York as a student for one of the many strikes that
Speaker:I survived. So welcome again, Anna. I'm so excited to have you on because our audience will know
Speaker:we've name dropped Labor for Palestine quite a few times. And we've been watching your work,
Speaker:especially obviously in the last two months. But you did not just appear on October 7th,
Speaker:just like the conflict did not. Labor for Palestine has been around for some time now. Can you
Speaker:give us a a little history lesson in the organization that we're seeing now? Yeah, for sure. So,
Speaker:Labor for Palestine actually started back in 2006. So it's almost 20 years old by now. It's
Speaker:been, you know, a bit on and off in the last few decades, but sort of the latest iteration
Speaker:really came out in 2017. bunch of folks across different unions across Canada really came
Speaker:together to say like, we got to start reviving this really powerful part of our labor movement.
Speaker:And so we've been sort of, you know, plugging away since then. And then obviously on October
Speaker:7th, suddenly the work became a lot more sort of salient to folks, you know? And it just...
Speaker:it appeared a lot more urgent all of a sudden. Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah, not to say there
Speaker:weren't pressing issues before, but I imagine everybody's work in this area of activism took
Speaker:it up a notch. But I'm gonna hold you to pre, pre-October 7th still, because we've talked
Speaker:a lot about on the show ways to get social movements and labor to work side by side. without too
Speaker:many power struggles. And we've not been all that successful historically. So obviously
Speaker:this kind of comes from the labor for Palestine is kind of born from this need, right, to have
Speaker:to prioritize social movements because, you know, Palestine isn't in the collective agreement.
Speaker:Right. It's a bit of a battle getting workers to try to prioritize all kinds of social issues
Speaker:outside of their own battle with their bosses. So what has it been like for Labour for Palestine
Speaker:to try to get in there and get motions passed, you know, at the OFL, at these various conventions,
Speaker:and try to kind of awaken labour and to convince them? that the resources that they have should
Speaker:be divided between workplace issues and social issues? Yeah, great question. So, I want to
Speaker:say maybe about a year ago, eight months ago, Labour for Palestine launched one of our campaigns,
Speaker:Labour Against Apartheid. That's really been focusing on showing workers here in Canada
Speaker:why this is a workers issue. what we can really do to impact the issue in Palestine from here.
Speaker:And so we have, you know, these really great sort of educational workshops that we've been
Speaker:taking to locals, really been chatting with folks about like, what the labor movement can
Speaker:add to this struggle. And then, of course, since October 7th, that work has really just been
Speaker:made more sort of kindly and expedient. So we've actually had some really wonderful successes
Speaker:in the past two months or so, supporting different unions, QP, CupW, PSAC, into passing their
Speaker:own sort of resolutions at conferences and conventions to really not only show their support. for
Speaker:Palestine and the workers of Palestine, but also commit to things like BDS, the Boycott
Speaker:Divestment and Section Movement. You know, also we've seen, which you know, I think is really
Speaker:great, all these sort of rank and file members really be coming out and asking their local
Speaker:and asking their executive like, why aren't we focusing on this more? And so we've really
Speaker:seen some, we've seen a lot of movement kind of on the issue. within passing of resolutions,
Speaker:really from coast to coast to coast, which has been heartwarming, I think. So I know the OFL
Speaker:passed a critical statement that wasn't immediately picked up, because I think some people think
Speaker:all unions follow what the OFL tells them to do, and that's absolutely not the case. We
Speaker:wish it was, sort of. Well, it's a complicated relationship, but what it did, it didn't translate
Speaker:into immediate pickup from member unions. So then there were separate battles within these,
Speaker:but as far as I know, and I hope you can add to my list, cause it's kind of small. I know
Speaker:OPSU and the OSSTF, which is Ontario High School Teachers. Tell me you got more to share. Who's
Speaker:on board? Yeah, there's definitely been more resolutions On the Labor for Palestine website,
Speaker:we have this fantastic page that not only lists like all these victories, and I promise there's
Speaker:more than the two that you mentioned, but also one of the things that we've been doing to
Speaker:kind of make these victories easier is sharing the resolutions between unions to make it sort
Speaker:of easier to adapt to people's specific kind of union, local, what have you. And so... Again,
Speaker:I cannot name them, but I promise there has definitely been quite a few resolutions passed.
Speaker:So, you know, every time we sort of hear of one, it's definitely like not only a major
Speaker:victory, but then it really inspires other unions to think like, well, maybe we could do this
Speaker:too. And one of the things that Labour for Palestine has been doing is helping folks again, like,
Speaker:see the resolutions that are out there and craft ones that... are kind of specific to them.
Speaker:So Anna, what I'll do is I'll link to the victory website there. Cool. And so people can see
Speaker:for yourself. So that way, yeah, you're not put on the spot and having to name them all
Speaker:because, and some victories are not quite measurable either. You don't know the impact that goes
Speaker:beyond the resolutions. Have these resolutions and motions passed, translated into bodies
Speaker:at? actions? Absolutely. I think that, yeah, right? We have seen, you know, definitely more
Speaker:so in the last few months, just the amazing kind of support from the labor sector. I know
Speaker:every time I go out to a protest, there was one here in Toronto on Sunday, we had such
Speaker:a huge labor contingent. It was so great to see everyone. you know, marching behind that
Speaker:labor for Palestine banner, but also just seeing all those different kind of union flags and
Speaker:seeing that people really understand that, you know, the fight for equality in Palestine is
Speaker:a fight that impacts all workers, right? Absolutely, yeah. No, we've tried to sell that line as
Speaker:much as possible here on the show. I hope most people are nodding along as you say that. One
Speaker:of the things that I think is awesome about the blockades of not just the arms manufacturers
Speaker:and, you know, adjacent companies, because it takes a million companies to make those fucking
Speaker:warplanes, but also locations like export and development Canada and disrupting business
Speaker:as usual there. Because if folks listen back to our last episode, we had Dimitri Lascaris
Speaker:on and he gave
Speaker:a massive coalition, Labour for Palestine, World Beyond War, Independent Jewish Voices, you
Speaker:know, and Friends and others. They're doing that where they're doing what the politicians
Speaker:should be doing. Right. They are. So I don't want to steal your thunder, but you know, watching
Speaker:the video from Pratt and Whitney action this week. So this is an arms manufacturer. They
Speaker:get federal loans, interest-free loans, to make bits for warplanes that cause havoc and whatnot
Speaker:and drones. And so these folks shut them down. Pretty much shut that morning shift down. Do
Speaker:you want to tell me how that came about and how it felt to have such a successful action
Speaker:there? Especially, you know, 60 plus days in, you've been asking a lot of members and it's
Speaker:just getting stronger. Absolutely. So, you know... I think one of the things that we here in Canada
Speaker:can so clearly see is the way that our country is sending and funding and manufacturing the
Speaker:weapons that are literally going to enact this genocide, right? So answering that call from
Speaker:union workers within Palestine to end the arms trade and to stop this business as usual. It's
Speaker:a rare thing. thing in a social movement where you actually get direct instructions from the
Speaker:people impacted, right? What a great way for us to respond here, not only as concerned citizens,
Speaker:but also as people in manufacturing in that labor struggle, right? Last week it was Whitney.
Speaker:Before that we did L3 Harris. Before that it was Incas. We've had hundreds of people come
Speaker:out and say, we don't want the labor in Canada going to murder Palestinians, right? And it's
Speaker:such a, you know, self-evident sort of thing to not want. I think that it's really brought
Speaker:in this really amazing sort of broad-based coalition, again, you know, labor for Palestine. also
Speaker:had the labor against the arms trade and world beyond war. So really like the difficult part
Speaker:a lot of times is being able to sort of identify and do that research on like who is doing this
Speaker:manufacturing, who is doing these sales, because they try to keep that stuff quite under wraps
Speaker:so that we don't go and complain and pick it, right? But doing that research and finding
Speaker:these really obvious targets. It's such a tangible way to disrupt what's going on halfway across
Speaker:the world, right? And it also really helps build those connections for us here to understand,
Speaker:like, this is a global issue. What is happening in Canada is not separate or removed from what's
Speaker:happening in Israel-Palestine, right? And so really seeing the ways that our two countries
Speaker:who love settler colonialism work together to really enact that policy. I think has been
Speaker:drawing lots of people out because again, it's so clear, it's so wrong and it's such an easy
Speaker:way to directly respond to the ass of the folks in Palestine.
Speaker:pretend on the global stage. They like the image of the peacekeeper. Exactly. And as long as
Speaker:we're not the ones directly dropping bombs, that we're not responsible for the war crimes
Speaker:committed with them, whether it's by Israel or Saudi Arabia, as another example of Canadian
Speaker:arms that go towards committing war crimes. It's that colonial imagination that that we
Speaker:talked to Tyler Shipley about in a recent episode. And the complacency that is asked of us to
Speaker:just go along with that. And so I really admire the active disruption of that and bringing
Speaker:that issue to the forefront because it's something that, yeah, the powers that be would much rather
Speaker:keep under wraps. Yeah, absolutely. And, you know. some of the most frustrating things to
Speaker:me is that the Canadian government actually awards L3 Harris and Incas, all these contracts
Speaker:to do work domestically. So not only are we, as a society, totally fine with sending weapons,
Speaker:but the government is actually making sure these companies are sustainable, making sure these
Speaker:companies are profitable. It's that relationship between these companies and the government
Speaker:that has really led us to say there's something wrong in Canada that we need to disrupt and
Speaker:bring attention to. And when you think of all those investments that the Canadian government
Speaker:has made in this sector, it starts to make, along with its love affair, with colonialism.
Speaker:It starts to make a little bit more sense as to why we've taken such a fucking genocidal
Speaker:position in these times when it's so obvious, when it's been laid bare. I think there's so
Speaker:many Canadians just going, what? Just pure shame in being where we are in our UN votes, in knowing
Speaker:that we supply weapons. Like we were happy to shame them for weapons to Saudi Arabia. but
Speaker:it becomes a little more contentious when we're talking about Israel. But now, seeing what
Speaker:we're seeing, that's, people are shocked. And the government gets away with saying, you know,
Speaker:we don't really give aid to Israel. There's not a lot of dollars in direct aid in the same
Speaker:way we do to other countries. But you dig a little deeper, and that's done on purpose,
Speaker:right? This is buried. requires work and effort to find out who's getting, you know, interest-free
Speaker:loans or straight-up funding to create maybe not these weapons, but the other parts of their
Speaker:business that allows them to spend time and maybe losses on innovating new ways to kill
Speaker:people. And so because that's a big excuse, people like the 20, $20 million in weapons
Speaker:doesn't sound like a lot. but if you know that they're like pivotal pieces to the warplanes
Speaker:flying overhead, I'm happy to take those away and see what happens. I don't think that's
Speaker:a drop in the bucket. I think that is quite disruptive, even one morning shift, because
Speaker:I wanna kinda talk about the workers inside of these places that you're blockading, because
Speaker:I think it's easy for us to get really upset and go, how can you fucking work for somewhere
Speaker:like that? How can you go to work every day and knowingly make weapons? And I think in
Speaker:large part, and I've not spoken to any of them, but you folks did, so I'll get there, but I
Speaker:imagine they've told themselves, like all a lot of people do, these are defensive weapons,
Speaker:right? I'm helping nations, Canada, whatever, defend themselves against whatever. You know,
Speaker:almost so many people still defend the... the existence of armed forces, just parked. We're
Speaker:happy if the planes are just parked. We imagine they'll never do anything bad, but we need
Speaker:them. We need them, we need them, we need new ones. But now we're seeing like what they're
Speaker:doing. So I think these workers have gone, perhaps they're having a little bit of moral struggle,
Speaker:of values struggle. And then you folks take the initiative to blockade their workplace.
Speaker:And judging from what I heard Aiden say on the picket line there, there was a video there
Speaker:of reporting back from his conversations with workers at the, you know, at the car windows,
Speaker:what turn around, this is what we're doing this for probably a pamphlet slip, right? And the
Speaker:reaction was actually quite positive. It was kind of like, Oh, thank God. I don't have to,
Speaker:well, for me, I'd be like, Oh yeah, I don't have to go to work today, but I'd like to think
Speaker:it was like, yes. I don't have to go to work today. I didn't have to do this, but I'm turning
Speaker:around and I'm feeling a little bit empowered by turning around and not working this morning.
Speaker:And I think maybe you converted a few folks in line there. I think, is that part of the
Speaker:battle as well on these lines? Like these workers aren't your enemy. The bosses in the B&Ws,
Speaker:mate. Exactly. I think anyone who... is alive right now, understand that like, sometimes
Speaker:we gotta work jobs that we don't really like, because the rent is very, very high, right?
Speaker:And so I think, you know, having the opportunity to really like talk to workers and help them
Speaker:understand, like, you know, what exactly is going on in this factory, in this manufacturing
Speaker:place, in this company that you're working for. Even though you're probably just working to,
Speaker:you know, send your kids to soccer and hockey and pay the rent, right? Like, you know, helping
Speaker:folks understand sort of like the evil that they're participating in. I don't imagine anyone's
Speaker:going to, you know, quit their job and, you know, I don't know, go drive a bus or something.
Speaker:But, you know, to be able to really like. understand and grapple with like what your company is
Speaker:doing. Even sort of just planting that seed is so important, right? Because again, it's
Speaker:the workers that have the power, right? And what would be, you know, even more amazing
Speaker:than an outside picket is what if all the employees inside the company actually decided, hey, We
Speaker:don't want to participate in building these murder weapons, right? And so the goal again
Speaker:is it's to inform and to educate because, you know, we understand that laborers of conscience
Speaker:don't want to have their labor going to genocide, even though obviously in this capitalist system,
Speaker:you can't just go away from working, right? And so to kind of arm them with that knowledge,
Speaker:perhaps help them have those conversations with their coworkers, like maybe in a month or so,
Speaker:we'll see inside Whitney and Pratt, oops, all the folks are dropping and breaking all the
Speaker:stuff on the manufacturing line, right? Like, so I think that is the dream goal, you know?
Speaker:At the very least, maybe demotivated them. They're gonna work at half. speed from now on because
Speaker:like, yeah, quit and go drive a bus. Well, someone's going to get that job. So I would rather you
Speaker:do what Anna's talking about and put your damn tools down. And that's why folks interested
Speaker:in doing blockades and doing this work, you know, keep in mind, like you are actually trying
Speaker:to sway those folks that you're blocking at the same time. No, you're not going to win
Speaker:everyone. But the ideal situation, the people who hold the keys. to the ultimate disruption
Speaker:are workers. And I know that's right, kind of, it's exclusionary to say that, but no one holds
Speaker:the position inside the means of production other than workers. So to see Labor for Palestine
Speaker:having a moment here to really also demonstrate to these workers what solidarity can accomplish,
Speaker:right? That's gotta be. learning on the line as well. That's got to be helping for labor's future goals other than Palestine, because it's been very impressive. It's been very impressive what
Speaker:we've seen so far. And yeah, do you want to share any other successes in terms of the blockades? Like I use Pratt & Whitney only because it seemed to be the most
Speaker:recent. But is this coast to coast? Do you have? This is somewhat coast to coast. It's where
Speaker:the companies are, right? So when we did L3 Harris a few weeks ago, we also had folks in
Speaker:Quebec and Hamilton and maybe a little further East who were also picketing L3 Harris. um,
Speaker:plants and manufacturing, uh, businesses, right? But we've also seen, you know, in Vancouver,
Speaker:some really amazing sort of block the boats initiatives where, where dock workers are,
Speaker:are refusing to unload or load, uh, you know, ships that are heading for Israel ships that
Speaker:are bringing these weapons and manufacturing and stuff, uh, in order to, to commit this
Speaker:genocide, right? And so, you know, coast to coast, I think we're seeing the power of workers
Speaker:in being able to say, like, no, we don't want our labor going to this, right? And so I think
Speaker:that's really amazing. And again, the strategies employed kind of depend on where you are, right?
Speaker:Because... Alas, in Toronto, there's no ships coming in. But obviously, you know, folks in
Speaker:Nova Scotia, folks in Vancouver, like they're perfectly sort of positioned to do that sort
Speaker:of solidarity work, right? Absolutely, because now we're seeing a lot of the global armed
Speaker:forces moving to secure the shipping lanes on that side. So it's up to us. to stop the ships
Speaker:from ever leaving or getting loaded. Longshoremen, the terms are all very gendered, but longshore
Speaker:person, so long to say, but are notorious in history for being very effective in these types
Speaker:of movements to blockade the arms trade. And yeah, it's very heartwarming to see also the
Speaker:amount of networking that. Now, I know you folks have done a lot of work networking beforehand.
Speaker:Palestinian solidarity work requires it. It's always been contentious. It's always had massive
Speaker:pushback. And so, but I wanted to ask you, did it take a different form? Like we talked about
Speaker:the sense of urgency that existed after October 7th. But like you folks are pulling off. kind
Speaker:of covert actions, these aren't we're going to poster ahead of time actions. They require
Speaker:background communications, trusted communications, and it's like across four or five different
Speaker:organizations sometimes. So without revealing too much, has that taken a different form now?
Speaker:One because of urgency, but also two because of the efforts to... likely disrupt your work
Speaker:might have increased with, you know, we all don't even, Anna's not going to call me paranoid,
Speaker:but some of you might be worried, but it already happened beforehand. One can only imagine you
Speaker:need to be careful, more careful with your communications on disrupting arms manufacturers in this heated
Speaker:time. So how do you folks do that? Absolutely. I think like, um, you know, it's not necessarily
Speaker:that like The strategies have changed or anything like that, but certainly the urgency has brought
Speaker:it more to the forefront and really not only increased again, this like level of repression
Speaker:of Palestinian activism, but has also brought lots more people into Palestinian activism,
Speaker:right? And we're seeing an awful lot of folks who, in September maybe didn't know what was
Speaker:happening. and now can't stop thinking about what's happening, right? And so, you know,
Speaker:I think the sort of hearts and just determination that folks are feeling in this moment has really
Speaker:helped us bring out these large numbers and really helped people kind of see the importance
Speaker:of not only showing up, but of showing up in a way that's safe and secure because we know
Speaker:and we can see again from coast to coast, like we're seeing people getting fired, suspended,
Speaker:doxed, anything imaginable that the Zionists can do to kind of shut this movement down is
Speaker:happening. But again, like it's that power in numbers, right? And so... You know, we're bringing
Speaker:out this sort of mass movement now. But we haven't changed the playbook. Everything that we're
Speaker:doing is really based on the successes of a lot of the same tactics during South African
Speaker:apartheid, right? And we saw the power of the labor movement then, not only again in doing
Speaker:things like blocking boats, not delivering South African mail. all these amazing things that
Speaker:like specifically only folks in the labor movement can do. But we've also saw the success of that,
Speaker:right? And you know, that's why we're continuing on with these tactics and that's why we know
Speaker:these tactics work, right? Because if it wasn't for labor, then Canada would have never signed
Speaker:on to, you know, sanctioning South Africa. And so You know, for me, that's what I hold in
Speaker:my heart and my mind when I engage in these tactics, because we've seen the success, we've
Speaker:seen the importance of the tactics, and we can do it again. And I think people across Canada
Speaker:are really feeling that, right, and seeing that in the movement right now. Absolutely. You
Speaker:talk about doing it safe and securely, but at the same time, you talk about the level of
Speaker:repression. But as responsible organizers that you folks are, I see you've started a legal
Speaker:referral service, 50 odd lawyers on hand to assist folks that are feeling that pushback.
Speaker:Give us a taste of what you've heard or what you've seen that would prompt, perhaps people
Speaker:don't think that within organized labor that. That would be possible, right? You can't fire
Speaker:a union worker. Isn't that the old trope, right? No matter what they do. But that's not true.
Speaker:People are losing their jobs and- I wish, right? Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, we started this
Speaker:legal referral with, you know, the Palestine Legal Center and another group to really support-
Speaker:folks, we've just seen so much repression within people's workplaces. And this has ranged from,
Speaker:you know, sort of more mild or benign stuff like, oh, you have to take down that Palestine
Speaker:poster. We can't be talking about, you know, politics in the workplace, sort of stuff like
Speaker:that. So we have lots of kind of... sheets and folks that are able to really like help each
Speaker:other out in determining how they can show solidarity for Palestine within a workplace that is not,
Speaker:you know, allowing folks to show solidarity for Palestine. And then we've also been hearing
Speaker:all sorts of people being, you know... investigated, suspended, fired, oftentimes not for anything
Speaker:that they've done in their workplaces, but for things that they've done on their personal
Speaker:social media that they've done outside their work hours. And then we're hearing, for myself
Speaker:at York, I know there's quite a few other TAs and such that... have been suspended because
Speaker:they talked about Palestine in their course and that scared some students, right? So these
Speaker:folks are being suspended for, you know, threatening the safety of these students, right? And so
Speaker:the, really the range of sort of punishments and retribution that we've been seeing has
Speaker:really been astounding, but again, not surprising, right? Because Palestine, Palestinian solidarity
Speaker:has always been met with this really well organized and well funded repression, right? And so it's
Speaker:on us as folks who support Palestine to kind of organize and get comprehensive sort of support
Speaker:system going to fight back against this, right? And so we've definitely had, you know, a few
Speaker:successes. We had a great chat the other day, cross-union about how you can, you know, wear
Speaker:a kaffir in your workplace and not get fired and sort of looking in the collective agreements
Speaker:and seeing like. what is the nitty gritty that they're trying to pull on us and what can we
Speaker:sort of say back and stuff like that. Kind of know your rights approach. Exactly. Yeah, but
Speaker:then of course there are the more serious cases that do require sort of lawyers to help folks,
Speaker:you know, push back against these suspensions, push back against these firings and what have
Speaker:you. It's funny how all of those right-wing grifters who talk so much about freedom of
Speaker:speech and cancel culture and whatnot, have been quite silent for the past couple of months.
Speaker:They're not silent, they're telling me I should go to prison. I wish they were silent. Well,
Speaker:silent about cancel culture. I haven't heard the word cancel culture. Free speech advocates
Speaker:do not exist anymore, apparently, at all. In a while. which just goes to show the hypocrisy
Speaker:behind the whole movement in the beginning. Absolutely. But the story at York of the suspensions,
Speaker:you know, really makes me mad, but also vindicated. Because I went on a bit of a rant, I think
Speaker:in our, well, a few times on our last episode about the centering of that safety in a moment
Speaker:where there's genocide occurring. And You know, it's one thing to make space for everybody's
Speaker:feelings, and then it's another to use that to actually shut down discussions of genocide,
Speaker:of ethnic cleansing, of even a very important political event. Like, no, we can't talk about
Speaker:that because it makes you feel unsafe. No, at that point, that is your problem. That is a
Speaker:you problem. And I hate operating that way. I feel like the... tyranny of the majority
Speaker:is a huge problem in society. We have to listen to individuals and make accommodations. I do,
Speaker:but this is next level, right? This is, I've never seen this before. And in fact, when we
Speaker:do say like, hey, that language you use makes me unsafe, like, you know, we have many times
Speaker:around trans youth and. all sorts, you know, racist language. Everyone's like, you guys
Speaker:are so fragile, snowflakes, get a backbone. And now it's like, oh, well, I'm going to reinterpret
Speaker:everything that you were going to say and make it your meaning. And I'm going to act on that.
Speaker:And everyone is like, yeah, that's cool. Well, not everybody, but the powers that be are like,
Speaker:yep, that's right. We are definitely into protecting students all of a sudden from feeling unsafe.
Speaker:Meanwhile, at York, there's cops around campus accosting people all the time. They don't care
Speaker:about student safety. I went there. They do not. So like at no point do you feel safe at
Speaker:York. And it has nothing to do with the activists on site. But yeah, it's tough kind of asking
Speaker:people to come out and do this work sometimes too and also have that onus of keeping them
Speaker:safe when it's such an unpredictable atmosphere. You can tell them here are your rights, but
Speaker:that doesn't mean their boss is literally just going to fire them anyway. Yeah, no, no. I
Speaker:got a pamphlet that told me I could wear a kaffir to work. I know my rights and it's just like
Speaker:you and a boss, you know, union and no hope of anyone having the time to pay attention
Speaker:to your case, maybe, you know, and, you know, that might not end well or come blockade. We
Speaker:are following all the most of the rules. We're not blocking the sidewalk. We're letting some
Speaker:cars pass, whatever, whatever you decide to do, work within whatever peaceful framework.
Speaker:And that doesn't mean you're necessarily going to get a peaceful response from police. And
Speaker:I feel like the desperation is also growing, right? Where the reactions we're getting are
Speaker:just not even making sense. The Canadian government included, you know, like what? What is going
Speaker:on? So the... Taking steps for the legal referral services is important, but do you folks take
Speaker:other steps as well when you do the physical actions where you can anticipate perhaps hostilities
Speaker:or legal ramifications? Yeah, for sure. I
Speaker:think really where our strength lies is that there's power in numbers, right? And so...
Speaker:that one person with their boss in the office talking about a keffiyeh, probably not gonna
Speaker:go that great, but you add nine other employees in a keffiyeh and it changes the dynamics a
Speaker:bit, right? And so the same, you know, I would say with the blockades, like we are there to
Speaker:keep each other safe, right? And we go as a community. And so that means, you know, When
Speaker:people bring their kids, we tap them on the shoulder before something starts getting spicy
Speaker:and be like, hey, would you wanna like maybe move over a little further away from the cops
Speaker:right now? Or, you know, we of course also have like- You don't walk in with strollers? That's
Speaker:not- Exactly, right? One day maybe. And I mean, we have folks that are there specifically for
Speaker:safety, that are there- specifically to kind of liaise with the police. And that's been
Speaker:really successful, because, you know, for example, at the Incas blockade, there were a few arrests,
Speaker:but we had, you know, probably like five or six warnings from the police, from our police
Speaker:liaison, to say like, you gotta move or you're gonna be arrested, right? And so... uh it's
Speaker:really that you know communication and really caring for each other um but also recognizing
Speaker:that you know getting arrested and having a 60 dollar trespassing ticket um is really kind
Speaker:of small change in comparison with you know 20 000 people murdered in Gaza right and so
Speaker:You know, I think that there's a bit of a dance that activists kind of have to do between kind
Speaker:of our safety and making a stand, right? So, you know, sometimes it's worthwhile to stay
Speaker:there and say, we are not moving until you arrest us. And sometimes it's not, right? And that
Speaker:depends on... you know, the situation, the media, how the cops are, but also, you know, what
Speaker:the folks in that position are doing, right? If it's someone without status, obviously,
Speaker:we don't want them to get arrested, right? But, you know, white academics like myself, it's
Speaker:not really gonna be a big issue if I sit in the back of a police car for two hours and
Speaker:get a ticket, right? And so... If that's what I have to do to let people know that, you know,
Speaker:Incas is sending, you know, weapons to Israel, then sometimes, you know, strategically, it's
Speaker:worthwhile, right? But, you know, being able to sort of have the trust and teamwork to judge
Speaker:those situations, you know, is I think what keeps us safe, especially when confronting
Speaker:the police, right? You mentioned media. How has there been much media presence at these
Speaker:blockades? Have you been getting coverage and how is and if so, how has the coverage been?
Speaker:Yeah, fair. Um. We've definitely had media come out. You know, am I 100% happy with the stories
Speaker:that media writes? Not so much. But I think, you know, when folks like CTV, CBC, Global
Speaker:cover these sort of blockades, what's so great about it is whoever's reading that article
Speaker:now sees like, oh my God, Canada is manufacturing these weapons, right? And so maybe the big
Speaker:story is like, Inca staff were really mad about this, but they'll always have that little,
Speaker:you know, at least two sentences that's like, well, Inca actually manufactures the glass
Speaker:that goes on, you know, whatever, right? Yeah, they have to explain why you're there. Exactly.
Speaker:And people are like, why are they that building? Why Pratt and Whitney? It sounds like what
Speaker:is it and well, they didn't want you to know this, but so yeah, no matter how far it's buried,
Speaker:I guess your point does get across. But sometimes eyes on makes that difference between whether
Speaker:you can push your boundaries a little bit in terms of the blockade. I have a feeling that
Speaker:that's where Santiago was thinking as well because... Well, yeah, that's what I was thinking is more
Speaker:because you mentioned, you know, arrest and it's like, well, it's one thing getting arrested
Speaker:and nobody's seeing it. But if you can get arrested in front of a camera and to expose, you know,
Speaker:the use of colonial violence to continue the Canadian colonial imperialist project. Well,
Speaker:that's a very different thing. Right. And it exposes, you know, what side. Canada's on and
Speaker:who exactly they're willing to protect. So I do think getting arrested in the right moment
Speaker:is always, obviously not everyone can afford that, but it is an important part of the movement,
Speaker:I think. I picture those Just Stop Oil videos because I find them kind of impactful because
Speaker:they seem to have a camera person. dedicated to getting that close up of everyone getting
Speaker:arrested and they all have a speech prepared and it's very personal to them. I'm getting
Speaker:arrested because and these people do not sort of they have practiced this right it's a it's
Speaker:definitely part of their tactic. Also you talk about tickets folks handing out food to hungry
Speaker:people in the United States. getting tickets, but then, you know, if we're going to pay tickets,
Speaker:let's make this part of the demonstration, right? Let's videotape this. Let's count how many.
Speaker:Let's drive up donations using this repressive tactic against us. So I want to ask about the
Speaker:smaller actions, though it's great to see 200 people show up and then have power in numbers,
Speaker:but you folks have done a lot with a little sometimes because sometimes I, you know, I
Speaker:read the tweet and then I open the picture. And so the tweet will say, we've blocked some
Speaker:crappy company that's making weapons. Right. I fill in the blank and I'll open the picture
Speaker:and it'll be like six comrades with their arms out and signs stretched. And I'm just like,
Speaker:you folks are awesome. Because I think some people don't want to start initiatives or they
Speaker:feel like they haven't built critical mass. to shut it down. I mean, I guess maybe they
Speaker:envision a full ring around the factory and hundreds and hundreds of people laying their
Speaker:bodies down on the road. And sometimes it really doesn't take that much. Sometimes it's just
Speaker:a small paper line of resistance that is so visual and in the way that it does its job.
Speaker:And although it, yeah, like I would love 200 people out at every action with an extra lawyer
Speaker:and a police liaison. But also, if you have eight people and an arms manufacturer in the
Speaker:industrial complex near you, you can disrupt the morning shift, right? So maybe you don't
Speaker:have an all day. You can't shut this down forevermore. You can't stop every weapon, but bit by bit,
Speaker:right? Drop by drop. And maybe you'd start at eight, then it's 10. And then it does get to
Speaker:200 because then Anna hears about what you've been doing and she sends some folks your way
Speaker:and boost the signal. And That's how it all works, right? So you folks don't start at 200.
Speaker:And so, yeah, I'm very proud when I see those, the big ones and even more so the small ones,
Speaker:because I know that can be scary too when you show up at an action, you feel kind of lame,
Speaker:there's no one else there, and then you see someone else with a sign, and then you see
Speaker:one other person, and you're like, as long as I got one person, I'm not by myself. But I
Speaker:don't suggest anybody tries to block an arms facility by yourself. But... Small, small acts
Speaker:of resistance to do build capacity over a while. So yeah, those ones got to make you proud as
Speaker:well, Anna.
Speaker:Absolutely. Every little bit counts, right? Where do you find the time? I imagine like
Speaker:labor for Palestine is full of... I've never been so happy to be an unemployed because I
Speaker:have all the time to do what I need to do here, but the repercussions are very few. Like no
Speaker:one's calling my boss. You folks have time constraints. Like most of you are working jobs and then...
Speaker:putting on all of these actions and then creating referral services and doing teach-ins. And
Speaker:because we've only really scratched the surface of the work that you're doing, right? Like
Speaker:I like to focus on the blockades because I want everyone in the streets. But like there's so
Speaker:much other work that goes involved in lobbying. And like you said, resolution writing and stuff.
Speaker:So please, like, do you have staff? Is this all volunteer? And do you have superpowers?
Speaker:It is all volunteer. Our superpower is still being awake. But really what it is is, you
Speaker:know, it's not only like the passion that keeps us going, but really like to see how the movement
Speaker:continues to grow and build is so important because not only does that, you know, continue
Speaker:to motivate, you know, me who's been at it for a bit, but like getting more people in to lighten
Speaker:the load, like that's how we make things sustainable, right? And so, you know, I think like the folks
Speaker:who are in labor for Palestine and most of these other movements and groups, right? It's a labor
Speaker:of love. It's a labor of passion. And that's what keeps us going because we see the injustice
Speaker:in the world and we see our ability to do something about it. But bringing more people in and getting
Speaker:these kind of ideas and tasks spread out a bit, that's what helps keep it going, right? Because,
Speaker:as you might imagine, 11 people cannot create a mass movement. And so, you know, we could
Speaker:start it off, we could get all the website up and going good, right? But it takes other people
Speaker:to join us and really keep things going, right? And not just like literally, but also that,
Speaker:you know, feeling of not being in isolation, of seeing that your work matters and that people
Speaker:are, you know, picking up what you're putting down. What's the saying never doubt that a
Speaker:small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world indeed is the only thing
Speaker:that ever has. Right. I love that. Yeah. That's what that reminded me of, because that's how
Speaker:it always starts. You know, and it always feels, you know, like an impossible giant thing. And
Speaker:then you put into work and things change. Right. Absolutely. Yeah, I love that. I know you're
Speaker:doing what you're supposed to be doing because of the smile on your face after these two months.
Speaker:Like, I mean, just even the work alone, forget the horrors, right? Who can? Because at some
Speaker:point you have to just kind of put that aside, but Anna, you can't see her, but she has such
Speaker:joy in talking about this work and when she says growing capacity and building movement,
Speaker:I mean, just absolutely. lights up and appears to have a lot of energy despite talking about
Speaker:how tired she is. Anna, what can people do? And let's speak to unionized and non-unionized
Speaker:folks who are listening. What can they do to help your work? So it's not my work. It's our
Speaker:work, right? I always do that with my guests. Yeah. It's not just Anna. She's the only one
Speaker:I can see right now. What can they do to help all y'all? All right, and so, you know, every,
Speaker:I would say like every little bit helps, right? And it's the small stuff too, like talking
Speaker:to your coworkers, talking to the people in your life, telling them what's going on, telling
Speaker:them why you care and why they should care, but also, you know, joining Labor for Palestine.
Speaker:Joining our campaign, Labour Against Apartheid, you know, I know that for myself and my union,
Speaker:we have so much of our money from York going into some really kind of gross, skeezy things
Speaker:that we'd like to divest from, right? So doing that research into your own sort of workplace,
Speaker:where is your pension going? Where is your workplace? investing in doing these little campaigns,
Speaker:little lunch and learns, right? Like anyone, even if you're not unionized, can get a crew
Speaker:together for lunch and be like, hey, there's this fantastic workshop that teaches us about
Speaker:why Palestine is a labor issue, you know? And again, like obviously being in a union makes
Speaker:it a little safer. Um, but it's not the only sort of workplace that can organize, right?
Speaker:Like, uh, you know, if, if Pratt and Whitney folks spent the afternoon, uh, I doubt it,
Speaker:but I have no idea. Right. Uh, but if they're not, and they spent the afternoon just kind
Speaker:of talking about what their workplace is doing, like. Who cares if they're union or not? They
Speaker:have that labor power and together, you know, it's like what Santiago said, right? Like you
Speaker:can't fight that mass power, right? And so, you know, I think of in a non-Palestine example,
Speaker:you know, the power of Starbucks workers to start unionizing and... really get some rights
Speaker:for themselves like all over the US, right? Like it doesn't take an actual union to be
Speaker:in place for you to start making a difference in your workplace. But also if you have a union,
Speaker:it makes it a lot easier because you can start, you know, asking your union like, oh, why aren't
Speaker:we passing these resolutions? Why is our pension, you know, investing in these weapons manufacturers?
Speaker:why aren't we having, you know, our local meetings where we focus on Palestine and what labor
Speaker:unions there are asking us, right? Better yet, hold the meeting, bring the resolution, right?
Speaker:Yeah. And you'll teach people how to do that. Exactly. Yeah, so, you know, again, I think
Speaker:like, even if you're the only person in your workplace that knows what's going on, Like
Speaker:talk to people, build that mass movement, right? There's, you know, it always has to start with
Speaker:one person, a small group, right? But we're seeing before our very eyes, like the power
Speaker:of a small group of people to make global change. And that's what, you know, motivates me and
Speaker:hopefully is motivating listeners, you know? Well, I think you've done just that. Thank
Speaker:you so much, Anna, for joining us for one. I mean, that's just an hour out of your day.
Speaker:We do appreciate it, but I much more appreciate the work that you and your comrades are doing
Speaker:immensely. Absolutely. You folks are modern day revolutionaries, and I very much will make
Speaker:sure that we boost your signal as often as possible. Folks will find links. to find Anna and Labor
Speaker:for Palestine, their victory website. We will put as much as possible in the show notes so
Speaker:that people can plug right into your work and catch you at the next blockade. Yes. That is
Speaker:a wrap on another episode of Blueprints of Disruption. Thank you for joining us. Also, a very big
Speaker:thank you to the producer of our show, Santiago Halu-Quintero. Blueprints of Disruption is
Speaker:an independent production operated cooperatively. You can follow us on Twitter at BPofDisruption.
Speaker:If you'd like to help us continue disrupting the status quo, please share our content. And
Speaker:if you have the means, consider becoming a patron. Not only does our support come from the progressive
Speaker:community, so does our content. So reach out to us and let us know what or who we should
Speaker:be amplifying. So until next time, keep disrupting.
